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BuckSkin 
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 Topic: Propane Bottle Torch ???
Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 12:27am |
I was in the middle of a project and my 35-yr-old 14.1-ounce bottle of torch propane finally ran out; I was beginning to think it was going to last forever.
I turned the place wrong-side-out and found a gold-colored bottle that said MAPP; I had used some of it several years ago and must have used the last as it was out as well.
More searching and I found another empty bottle.
Then, BINGO, I tried another and it lit up and went to working.
Then, with it throwing a long blue blaze that looked like it would last forever and a day, I turned it off to do something else.
Ready for the torch again and this one was bone dry as well.
Now, for my questions:
I have seen those bottle-filling adapters that let you refill these small bottles from one of those grille tanks;however, I don't have a grille, nor any other reason to have one of those tanks.
What I do have, sitting right out there between the driveway and barn-lot fence, is a big 500-gallon tank that is 80% Full of the stuff.
I installed the big tank, ran the lines throughout the place, hooked up wall heaters, regulators, and the line coming from the tank itself.
I didn't ride in on no load of pumpkins and am confident I can do anything.
That being said, surely there is a way that I can fill these little bottles from that big tank.
I know I would have to TEE in a line to a cut-off valve and from that to some sort of bottle-filling adapter.
I do know that the Propane in that big tank is not "clean" Propane like what is in these little bottles when bought new; however, so long as it comes out the torch and ignites and gets hot, I am not at all concerned that it is "dirty" Propane.
Is it doable -- I am sure it surely is -- and what will I need to get it done ?
While we're at it, question #2 :
When I plumb in my bottle-filling line, can I also plumb in a longish flexible line that I can connect my little torch to and use it without the bottle, getting it's fuel straight from the big tank ?
I is quite perplexing when a project gets shut down after bedtime on account of the little torch bottle running dry and right out there in the yard is 400-gallons that may as well be on the Moon.
There's 128-ounces in a gallon; that's nine bottles with 1.1-ounce to spare x 400-gallons.
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DaveKamp
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 12:51am |
Aside from the possibility that you'd have dirt that somehow didn't get cleared out of your 500gal's lines...
What would justify the claim that your 500-gallon tank full of C3H8 is somehow 'not clean' where the quart-or less bottle of C3H8is somehow 'clean'??
The important part of filling propane bottles, is not overfilling them, and making certain you have a positive and reliable seal.
Small disposable bottles are not intended to be reused because they don't have a direct-mechanically operated shutoff valve, they're sealed off by the removal of the withdrawl spud upon unthreading. The spud shutoff uses a mechanical seal that is spring-closure only, it isn't mechanically cut off. They're very convenient to use, but they're not in the service class of a refillable tank...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Codger
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 4:53am |
You are withdrawing in a vapor state of the fuel gas with your current setup. To recharge another vessel, (tank) you either need a high compression pump rated for combustible fuel gas usage, ($$$) or you need to pull from reservoir in a liquid state. Without the reservoir being depleted, there is no way you are going to "tap" this reservoir unless you can work in -40 degree ambient, (or lower) temperature where the fuel gas will remain in a liquid state.
Now all that said, you can purchase or acquire a commonly available propane tank such as used on a backyard grille, an adapter fitting to convert it's gaseous fitting size to the smaller tank size you wish to refill, invert, or turn upside down the larger tank and open the valve(s). Liquid will flow till the pressures equalize in both tanks. Close the valves and uncouple the tanks till next time. The smaller tank will have propane in it, but not full as if purchased new; but is usable.
When you have your tank in the yard filled from a propane delivery service, that fuel is moved in a liquid state and pumped from the truck for the same purpose. It is why you are billed in "gallons" rather than BTU content or something else. When you use the gas the regulator typically reduces tank vapor pressure down to 10psi sending this reduced pressure to your point of use through another regulator which further reduces the fuel pressure to 11.5" of water column for point of use with your furnace, or water heater, (as such).
A word of caution is prudent around this and that would be to not *uck around too deeply into doing this by making adapters and such to work. Purchase the correct appliances needed for that task only, and use them. Seen too many burns and serious injury over the years by somebody going "cowboy" to get a task accomplished.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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iowallis
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 5:12am |
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My 1st thought is you would spend several hundred dollars (if not more) to do this safely and correctly. Or spend around $20.00 for a 4 pack of propane bottles.You would need to fill a whole lot of propane bottles to come close to recouping your investment.
Edited by iowallis - 15 Jun 2024 at 5:13am
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PaulB
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 6:59am |
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My First thought is: You want to use an open flame somewhat close to a bulk fuel tank??? What a *^($!* +@#)-
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 8:33am |
I have a 40# bottle and bought an adaptor 10 years ago as COdger said.. Got 5 little bottles and refilled them... 3 of the 5 leaked at the seals REAL SLOW and would be empty in a week... Never used it again... I bought a couple of the small bottles and 10 years later STILL HAVE NOT USED the second one...
Do yourself a favor and just buy a couple NEW SMALL bottles... will last a lifetime.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 8:41am |
Adapting for a liquid draw from your large tank is costly you could buy 100 disposable bottles for less. A 20 lb tank turned upside down will refill your bottles but you only get about 1/2 a fill. dad did it when I was a kid even he stopped using the filler it just wasnt worth the effort. you can buy the 14 oz bottles that are designed to be refilled. last time I saw on it was around $30. then you still need a 20 lb tank there around $40 a filler port I think I paid $20 when I got one. a 4 pack of disposables lasts me a long time. mapp bottles are around $10 each and burn much hotter. I think last MAPP bottle I bought is3 years old. mIf i really need heat OXy Acc is the only way to go. since buying a plasma cutter the tanks whent out of date before refilling.
Amazon.com : refillable propane cylinder kit
Edited by Dakota Dave - 15 Jun 2024 at 8:44am
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 12:15am |
Well....., I am glad I asked as I learned a thing or two.
To get the liquid Propane out of the big tank and into the little bottle, I would need to invert the big tank - or - put in a bottom drain.
Now I know.....
It worries the woman at the Propane place to death that I pay the tank rent every year and haven't used a drop in several years; she has accused me of buying it from other companies and lying and everything else; if my dealings with her are any indication, I feel sorry for her husband.
I made my deal with another mom-and-pop company and they were happy with our arrangement and in all the many years we never had the slightest problem.
I would not have purposefully went with these other people of my own accord; I sort of got railroaded into it.
My mom-and-pop people that were so easy to get along with got old and died and these other people bought them out -- and got me in the deal --- lucky me.
We burn wood and also have several versions of electric heat.
We also have three big Propane wall heaters that can take care of themselves without being hooked to electricity = none required; so long as there is Propane in that tank, they will work.
If I leave out on a long haul and the temperatures might drop below freezing, I will let the electric heat take care of things while I am gone --- and, I will have the Propane heaters set low enough that the electric will keep them from coming On-- until the electric goes out --- then, the Propane will keep my water from freezing.
I don't see what is so hard about that for her to understand.
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Codger
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 4:36am |
Most, but not all bulk storage tanks such as are in an end user's back yard for heating fuel gas usage do have a dip tube in them for withdrawing liquid. This port most times has the connection the tank is filled from with the supplier but doesn't have to be. Some also have a drain port but again, not all.
Your propane gas supplier is just that, a supplier. They have an asset in your yard and are collecting rent on that asset so there should be no bearing whether you use their fuel gas or not. However, at least around here, the vendors supply the tanks rent free but you are obligated to use only them for respective fuel gas usage. If you outright own the tank, (such as I) any vendor will fill it for you to allowing to "shop around". This is what your vendor suspects.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 10:31am |
 Codger wrote:
around here, the vendors supply the tanks rent free but you are obligated to use only them for respective fuel gas usage. If you outright own the tank, (such as I) any vendor will fill it for you to allowing to "shop around".
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From the very beginning, up until they both died, my Propane people were charging me sixty bucks per year for the tank rent.
Immediately upon them taking over, the new people charge $100/year tank rent; almost twice what it was costing.
Even with me paying tank rent, they don't want me buying gas from anywhere else.
But then, why would I; if I am not using any, I am not going to be buying any.
I have never signed a contract with these new people and never will.
I wish I owned my tank and therefore didn't have to involve anyone else.
That tank has been sitting out there for over thirty years; untelling just how old it was before it ended up here; when I asked just what it would cost for me to buy it from them, "Oh, those tanks are expensive, $2,800"
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 11:55am |
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Those tanks come up for sale at auctions in this area all the time. I live in the city, and this house in now on natural gas, so no need for tanks that size.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 12:27pm |
Lars(wi) wrote:
Those tanks come up for sale at auctions in this area all the time. I live in the city, and this house in now on natural gas, so no need for tanks that size. |
Any idea what they bring at auction ?
No way would I want Natural Gas even within a mile of my property, let alone plumbed into my house.
We had an extended family, at least a dozen, to get blown to bits one day while eating their supper; nothing left of the huge house but a black spot on the ground.
We have three big pipelines that converge and cross over each other in the next county away; they are always having catastrophic explosions that kill people and destroy houses; there must be a huge profit in that stuff as they settle all the law suits and never fix the problems.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 1:01pm |
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I have bought and also sold 3 or 4 - 500 gallon Prop tanks for about $500. ... over the last 30 years.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Lars(wi)
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 1:36pm |
BuckSkin wrote:
Lars(wi) wrote:
Those tanks come up for sale at auctions in this area all the time. I live in the city, and this house in now on natural gas, so no need for tanks that size. |
Any idea what they bring at auction ?
No way would I want Natural Gas even within a mile of my property, let alone plumbed into my house.
We had an extended family, at least a dozen, to get blown to bits one day while eating their supper; nothing left of the huge house but a black spot on the ground.
We have three big pipelines that converge and cross over each other in the next county away; they are always having catastrophic explosions that kill people and destroy houses; there must be a huge profit in that stuff as they settle all the law suits and never fix the problems. |
Propane, can be just as dangerous as Natural Gas, possibly more so. Propane being heavier than air will drop to floor(or ground level) until it dissipates, Natural Gas will rise while it dissipates. In the municipality I currently live, propane tanks that are designed for sitting out in your yard, are an ordinance violation, so Natural Gas, or all electric are the only viable options.
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I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science.
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Ray54
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 7:26pm |
I bought a 500 g tank used in 1979 for $500. They even supplied a regulator that had been on the tank. After 10 years had problem with the regulator. Turned out the copper line from tank to regulators was flaking off on the inside. Twenty more years and it happened again. No propane supplier would sell a copper line, unless they came and installed it. Then after about 40 years the pop off valve popped on 100 degree day and lost 100 plus gals. For $500 a supplier that I had used for most of the recent purchases of gas, put all new plumbing into the tank. That is pop off fill valve, gage, and a bottom valve as tank had that already.
So owning the tank is not without pitfalls. But I am still money ahead. As well as shopping 2 or 3 suppliers. At times it has been 20 to 50 cents a gal difference in price. But running out of independent companies locally. The local one store independent is now owned by an east coast company, using Western Propane as the west coast supplier name.
There has been a company selling new propane tanks, $2800 might buy a new 500 gal tank.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 16 Jun 2024 at 11:06pm |
In 1980 my 500 gal tank cost me $50 a year for ten years and then I owned it. Up until it was mine I was required to purchase from company who supplied the tank. Probably signed a contract to that effect. I think a new tank then was around that $500 mark. I think it foolish to mess with trying to fill your own when little store bought bottles are cheap and plentiful....and last a long time.
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 16 Jun 2024 at 11:08pm
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 12:15am |
SteveM C/IL wrote:
In 1980 my 500 gal tank cost me $50 a year for ten years and then I owned it. I think it foolish to mess with trying to fill your own when little store bought bottles are cheap and plentiful....and last a long time. |
I wish I had of had the foresight to look into something like that when I first got my tank.
As best I remember, it has been here around 30-years; I could have owned it three times by now.
If that mouthy accusing old woman annoys me one more time, I am going to run that tank bone dry and tell them to come get it; in fact, I will disconnect the lines and pull it down by the road.
My reason for the curiosity about refilling the little bottles was more of a convenience thing for those times when I am in the middle of something when everything is closed and lack of a bit of Propane puts things to a stand-still.
Something someone said about the self-sealing valve in the top of the little bottles has put another question in my mind.
Always before, for the thirty-plus years I owned it, I have always unscrewed and removed the torch when I am done with whatever I am doing.
Going in, I can smell a little whiff of Propane; coming out, I smell a big whiff as I hear the little hole close itself off.
To make the propane last it's longest, which is best practice, to do like I always have and remove the torch, or, to make sure the torch is Off and just leave the torch connected to the bottle ?
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Codger
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 4:32am |
I have propane cylinders that are 30+ years old sitting on a shelf in the shop with, and without burner nozzles attached to the tanks. All still have fuel in them so cannot vouch for which was is best. However, my burners are not chinese origin as much older than that prevalence of late. It is apparent they seal well.
Years ago I purchased a small acetylene tank, a "Turbo Torch" heating burner, along with several tips and 50', (in total) of hose. Haven't looked back and it will heat anything just as a cutting torch will. Works great and the sling allows it to be carried on the shoulder if need be. I still silver solder things so this comes in very handy for many uses.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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iowallis
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 5:22am |
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I was informed by my supplier that the regulators on my tanks are at “end of service life” and would not be refilled until replaced.
Because I own my tanks it on my dime ($250 each) but as a long time customer the labor is supposedly free. An adult needs to be around as they check for leaks and relight pilot lights, if needed, in the house and out buildings.
I am sure if they owned the tanks they would have covered the cost but considering I don’t ever remember the regulators being replaced I probably would have spent over the $500 in tank rent.
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Codger
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 5:26am |
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I've never heard that in the past myself. However if Simplex, Fischer, Rego, brand regulators you can purchase new diaphragms and springs easily and rebuild them yourself. Nothing complicated with them at all.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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iowallis
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 5:34am |
Codger wrote:
I've never heard that in the past myself. However if Simplex, Fischer, Rego, brand regulators you can purchase new diaphragms and springs easily and rebuild them yourself. Nothing complicated with them at all.
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I would think the supplier would require a certified/calibrated regulator, not something I redid myself, before refilling the tank due to liability issues.
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Codger
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 6:33am |
Don't know. I've done several myself and never a problem.
Could be a vendor rule or stipulation as I've worked on dozens of propane fired fuel gas installations in IA, and never any problems.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 8:46am |
Codger wrote:
I still silver solder things
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My uncle was "The Refrigeration Man" around here; he was the one the dairy guys would drag out of bed to fix their milk coolers.
I used to go with him on all sorts of repair jobs,
I never Silver soldered a lick in my life, but I have watched him thowzands of times.
I think he was using that same old worn out piece of sandpaper the last time as he used the first; he could get more mileage out of something like that than any other human I ever knew.
He had this little boy sized Acetylene tank.
I have used plenty of Acetylene/Oxygen torches, but I have never used Acetylene by itself.
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Codger
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 9:02am |
A "Turbo Torch" has air jets into the sides of the nozzle which mixes the air and fuel gas much the same as a cutting torch set does with an O2 bottle. Can't cut with a "Turbo Torch", only heat and it will melt steel with a large tip.
I've done a lot of HVAC installs with mine over the years. That fuel gas cylinder although small will do a lot of work. I have two actually but seldom need it. Always use this for warming anything rather than dragging out the torch set as it's smaller, lighter, and can be carried in a single hand.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 7:42pm |
Well,,I have used those small one pound bottles for the longest, especially hunting and camping cause they are so handy,,,,but they have become quite pricy these days so I asked my propane supplier if he would make me a hose to tap the house tank to refill the 16 oz bottles. He came out to check their tank to make sure there was a "liquid tap" then brought me a 10 foot hose with the adapter, then did a short schooling to fill the 16 oz bottles AND my bottle I use for the grill. I do not use the small bottles that often but can fill them when I need to. 
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 17 Jun 2024 at 9:54pm |
Now that is what I had in mind with my initial question.
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