camshaft
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Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Pulling Forum
Forum Description: Forum dedicated to Tractor and Garden Pulling
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75530
Printed Date: 24 Nov 2024 at 1:48am
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Topic: camshaft
Posted By: blue924.9
Subject: camshaft
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 11:14am
| well now that i have time and pank is gone so i can get some legit answers i can ask this. as you all probably know by now i am planning on rebuilding the motor on my 1950 wd, i am going with 4.125 bore and 4.5 stroke for 240 cubic inches. so far the plan is to stay at stock rpms, i will be pulling 3500 4000 and 4500 pound stock class dictating that i run first gear, so 2.5 mph and will hopefully be rolling on 14.9 by 28 rubber instead of my 13.6 by 28s though they seem to work very well, especially on hard packed tracks. i was wondering what camshaft i should get and where i should get it, every where is an option and not just guys from this site, thanks guys |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 12:24pm
| This topic has been covered many times before, past posts are a good place to start. Skip over the drama and read for the tech. I recommend a 175 Z code grind and have your machinist degree it for you. Your mph, class's and tires are the sweet spot for WD45 power levels. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 5:27pm
| something with a lifter maximum acceleration of.0093 to .0095 |
Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2013 at 8:47pm
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can someone explain lifter acceleration? ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 5:15am
Basically, total lift and duration only tell part of what is happening with a cam grind. Getting the valve open as fast as you can and holding it open as long as you can within a given duration will increase flow but there are trade offs to consider. I could go on an on but by punching "lifter acceleration" into Google will give you lots to read. Its one of those things that you really don't need to fret about. Any cam grinder worthy of the title knows what to do with ramp and acceleration rates if he is given accurate information as to application.
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Mrgoodwrench wrote:Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 7:50am
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Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:07am
| Barney Taylor was the guy a lot of people recommended at one time. Not sure if he is still doing them or how to contact him. Someone else said to stick a 175 cam in. Not sure if that would help but I think it would be hard to find. |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 10:03am
| A stock WD45 shouldn't have any trouble at 2.5 mph in first gear, the overbore kit is just added insurance, I would save my money unless you plan to move up the power curve at some point which in any case you would still need a new camshaft to enhance any modifications made at that time. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 12:07pm
| yes but i dont have a wd 45, i basically will after this winter, also in the pulls my association does i have noticed all but one 45 power out on a sticky track, the owners say the engines are stock, with one having an overbore kit, meaning 45s dont have enough power either. tracks around here are usually sticker than other tracks even in close by areas like south dakota. also our rules are way different than others and we usually dont get as far as in south dakota pulls |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 12:44pm
| Pretty hard to help a guy who makes a question into a moving target. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 3:06pm
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Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 3:37pm
| PM'd you my phone number, give me a call, I'll try to help. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 4:58pm
| 4 1/8" pistons could be a giant step sideways if they are as low on compression as I think they may be. |
Posted By: The Other Orange
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 5:00pm
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If you are tearing down the engine why not go bigger on the stroke? A 5.5 stroke doesnt cost very much and then you wont have to worry about power and run 38in rubber. Just a thought I know funding isnt always there. I just built a engine and I could kick myself for not going bigger on the stroke just to save a few bucks. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 8:39pm
| When I built my C engine I took my vast knowledge of cam grinding (not), called and give Crane Cam all my engine parts data and the RPM I wanted to run and sent the camshaft to them. When I called them the fellow on the phone said they had a computer program to give them the proper grind using my data. I was happy with what they did for me. The shop that welded and ground my crankshaft would grind camshafts also. I had him do standard grinds on camshafts but I decided on Crane Camshaft because of the computer program that the shop I used here was a seat of the pants special grinder on what would be proper for my data. I might not have been able to tell the difference between the two with the engine under power but it is what I did. No advise! Just something to think about. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 7:37am
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Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 7:38am
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Posted By: mattb
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 7:55am
| use the m and w pistons if they are for a wc will have to machine a little off the top so they don't hit the head. U said u have some junk wcs laying around? Take ur handclutch housing out and bolt a wc trans in where it was will bolt right up then put 38s on it run front trans in 3rd to slow ur groung speed down. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 9:09pm
| In many Antique Pulling Clubs a morphidite "two transmission" chassis like that wouldn't be allowed. I've seen a couple tractors from Missouri that have the torque tube completely removed from "WD's" to lighten them up another 100 pounds and that also wouldn't be allowed in a majority of Antique Clubs. If you can't wheel 38" rubber, you need more engine, not slower gears. |
Posted By: YT
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2013 at 10:58pm
| Barney Taylor goes by 472 big block on this forum. He ground a "175" cam for us a few years ago. I would try to PM him and see if he could help you out. He did us well, I'll tell you that! |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 7:09am
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I'll throw this question out there. If he is basically running a bone stock 4 1/8 overbore WD45 engine at stock rpm and on stock rubber, will anything other than a stock cam really be worth it? I guess I could see a 175 cam helping because they did have more power, but how much of that comes from higher rpm and compression? If he wants to stay "stock", then 175 pistons on the 45 crank and a 175 cam would be the way to go, right? AaronSEIA |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 8:04am
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Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 8:38am
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Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 8:57am
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Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 9:22am
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The camshaft has to have the matching oil pump. I'm spouting off info from memory, but no doubt DrAllis knows the numbers from memory. Up to early D17 had a lower speed oil pump, which corresponded to a certain number of teeth on the cam. Later D17, basicly all W-type engines with full pressure oiling systems, had a faster oil pump and corresponding cam gearing.
So, be careful swapping later model cams into earlier engines - you have to get the corresponding oil pump.
My old engine wasn't that fantasic modification-wise. It never ran out of power until I went over 5000# with 28" tires of any width - up to 18". Basic 4.125 X 4.5. with the standard hi-compression WD piston on 45 crank scenario. At 4000# w/38 x 15.5 tires it would top out against the governor at the end of the track - which was kinda handy. I seriously doubt tracks in Iowa are any stickier than the clay tracks I pulled on in Tennessee/Kentucky.
I guess what I'm saying is, the best/cheapest engine for what you want to do is your WD pistons top-cut down to about a 10:1-11:1 compression with good gas. Buy a new set of 4.125" sleeves at NAPA and some TotalSeal gapless rings for your WD-pistons on a 45 crank. Then go have fun.
------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 9:43am
| The oil pump gears is a fairly simple to get around . When you remove the cam to be ground remove the oil pump gear from oil pump that cm core donor came from then which ever pump you decide to run will just need that gear installed on it to match you cam. The engines that come from boss mans shop has the pump with no bypass for the extra oil pressure to ensure oil wedge and offset the extra pressure the increased power is exerting or loading bearings with |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 6:52pm
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2013 at 7:19pm
| you know my boss and your brother pointed out the lifter diameter as charles at cam crafts does on his web site to a fellow that started a topic called crossbreading a while back. Be a good title to search |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:34am
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Eh, don't fret over searching...the post should have Been called " In breeding" from some of the answers that came out of that guy that got banned 3 times from here n still carries on. One must wonder of the whole TVA is of the same mentality. What you need to do see if you can find a cam out of a 226 LeRoi. Maybe try it degreed down around 103 degrees. If you are running a d17 motor, just push out the roll pin that holds the oil pump gear on the 17 pump n replace it with ( preferably) the matching one out of the D226. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 8:50am
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What you really need to do is look through those old threads, even the one called "thinking of top fuel machining" from that mlpankey fella. It's to bad I cleaned out my file mamager and the pictures were deleted, you could read on and on in some of these threads where we (meaning several forum members) taught that pan key fella how to get rods to clear, how to degree cams, basic math and geometry principals, etc. What does jpankey stand for there "jeaous pankey" Anyway on a serious note your existing camshaft is about 20 degrees of duration short of what a good lower rpm pulling cam for one of these engines should be. What this means in simple terms is that your valves are open and moving air for a certain amount of crankshaft rotation. The engine can take advantage of more time to breathe, a longer duration can will do that. If the ranging has to much time to breathe meaning the duration is to long, it will pomp air back out the ports instead of trapping it and using it. If you look in your other thread there Blue, "where to get a cam" you'll find a prime example of specs for such a cam posted by pankey. A cam in that area will make your engine sound like a sick air compressor and you won't have any problem lugging, it'll kill plenty quick. One of the advantages to a ground cam is that the valves will open at a faster rate, meaning less degrees of crankshaft rotation to get the valve open and in a range where it flows more air.You can also controll when the events happen by how the cam is ground and WHERE you position it, meaning how you time it to the crankshaft. I don't expect for a lot of people to understand how to measure out and degree a cam..... just don't take much previously posted information on this forum as it'll be a waste of your time. Spend $20 and buy a good book on these subjects. I degree the cams, lock things togather and mark the gear when I send a cam out. Then there's little question. But people will still do something wrong, call and complain. Then once they get the plug wires back where they belong in the correct fireing order things are fine. Now I'm just giveing examples but i've learned a lot selling parts, never assume that everyone knows everything for sure. But those who are willing to learn will do well. I've typically got some cams on hand if you want one, if you want some specs on what works well, I posted some recently, or send a pm pm, call sometime. I've gotten cams from certain grinders that just don't work well. It seams that everyone thinks lift is important and and wants as much as possible, it's better to have a little less with a little rounder nose, holding the valve at a lesser maximum height but for a longer period of time. Some engines are different, but you don't have to worry about these Allis is heads flowing much much air. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:05pm
| anyone who's ever heard mlpankeys engines unless they are young and using the word sick in a hip way would not refer to them as a sick air compressor . most back up and stick there fingers in their ears in surprise cause they are use to the mad bumble be sounds most make instead of the deafening sounds a big inch one from him makes. |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:18pm
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Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:29pm
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How about we stop constantly bringing him up? Stick to the subject on hand. ------------- Central PA Allis Express 1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 3:48pm
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Gary, is that little guy saying " D'OH!"? Mitch Burchard, this whole board has yet to find a legitimate person that has heard one run!! Maybe you can provide us with some video, like WI50 did. Did he have one at his close to home Crossroads pull? |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:00pm
Benny, Benny, Benny ! . Look at Blues own first post , he started the topic off with a slam on poor ol' mitch, and lots of slang. I give the guy an honest answer, and get drama in return. He just wanted some attention. He really don't about a cam, but its a stick to stir things up.
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Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:28pm
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Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:32pm
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:43pm
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blue, Lighten up a bit, the drama Gary was talking about skipping over is the BS from the TVA crew. Basically ignore that and don't even reply to it. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:51pm
| ahh i see, couldnt really tell but figured this was a good way to find out, sorry bout that guys especially if i offended someone |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 4:56pm
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This is only a suggestion. Mitch is gone, let him be. leave out anything that dosn't apply to camshaft selection. Do include pertinate info, and you did. Cu.in., rpm, speed limit, weights you want to run, tire size, and you mentioned that you didn't intend to pull elsewhere, so you were stuck for now with this for criteria. It makes no difference if you have a wd or wd45, I said your criteria called for the wd45 power level. I did not say to use a 175 cam, I didn't want to confuse you further , read my post I said 175 cam grind. Any real puller has no problem understanding what I said or what is meant. Only a rookie or a newcomer or a drama queen here would reply like you have right down to your last post.
Ken and Butch, Doc Allis, Wi50, and others, don't give out bad info here. Me, I don't care no more, but show some respect.
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Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 7:48am
| you are right, i am a rookie on my first season, unlike most i will admit it. i also have all the respect i can give for you guys |
Posted By: mattb
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 11:52am
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usap allows the two trans setup in farmstock no different than a stepdown in a wc they told me. At 3mph it helps a lot. |
Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 4:52pm
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Really a 240 cubic incher at reasonable RPMs does fine with the stock grind indexed straight up and the valves properly set. At least it has in our WC with Hi-Crop gears pulling 2nd gear in a 4mph class at about 2000 RPM with 14.9x24 tires. Kip ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 7:27am
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I agree with Ken/MI right at the beginning of this thread, and Kip right at the end. If you're limited to 2.5 mph, as a rule, a 45' engine would be perfect right in that general vicinity. IMHO, that 201 with a 45' crank installed, and a set of larger bore M&W's would work quite nicely. This would keep your wallet in check, and still give you a nice small inch motor to "play" with and dial it into the class as you learn. Kip is a perfect example. Small inch motor, dialed in right makes quite a bit of power for the class "fit". You can still have fun and not go broke. As for a cam, Barney used to widdle camshafts especially
for the WD45 motors, but I don't think he widdles cams anymore. Personally, I don't think you need a cam for what you want to run, but that's just my opinion...
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
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Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 7:58am
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Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 8:53am
| Just because that guy has all that work done, (supposedly) doesn't mean it works. Don't get carried away. Do what you can and dial in your combination. |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 8:56am
| Something about the story doesn't add up, I can not imagine him running out of power in 4500 or 5000, especially in first gear with what you describe unless it has some serious tuning and set up issues going on, or he was telling you tall tales. A good running stock 45 weighted to 4500 lbs is just about impossible to stall in first gear, regardless of what the track is. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 9:04am
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Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 6:23pm
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Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 6:35pm
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2013 at 7:22am
Being the gentleman you talked to is a machinest, obviously, he has an advantage to build something that is completely customized the way it sounds. Stick with the stock block and do some minor mod's. You'll be a bit surprised how much power and torque the smaller AC engines make! Its your Tractor, and you can do what you want to do, but looking at it at a "fun" standpoint with limited funds, you can still have a ball and not have to spend big bucks to make your WD talk. Just remember. Its all in the combination. And, it may take quite a while to find that combo, but once you've found that combo, its gratifing to have a Tractor that runs and pulls good, and brings attention to the competition. Keeps em' on their toes... 
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
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