where to get a 175 cam
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Topic: where to get a 175 cam
Posted By: blue924.9
Subject: where to get a 175 cam
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 2:22pm
| was looking for 175 cams to put into the ol wd this winter but couldnt find anything, where do you get them, all ready looked at the sources on this website |
Replies:
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 5:46pm
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dr. allis sent a true 175 core with a soft lobe for a pattern to berry cams if i remember correctly. he may post to correct or reaffirm in a little while. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 6:03pm
| You're not going to find a 175 gas camshaft anywhere. Even if you did, you'd need a different oil pump or oil pump drive gear and a different camshaft gear on the nose of the cam. Send a good WC-WD cam ( one that fits your engine-make sure you know which gear you have on the nose) to Berry Cams in Lester Prarie, Minnesota and they will regrind it for you to 175 specs. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 6:49pm
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How much does that cost |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 6:50pm
| What do you mean by cam nose gear |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 7:03pm
| The drive gear on the nose/front of the camshaft. Call Berry Cam for a quote on their price. I'd guess a couple hundred bucks, but ask them. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 08 May 2013 at 8:36pm
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Berry cams just finished a puller cam for my brothers 38 wc. Was $209 for cam grind and all lifters resurfaced. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 8:07am
Just have Barney Taylor do one of his custom grinds on your WD core. Kip ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 9:00am
| anybody know berry cams and Barney Taylor's phone numbers or email adresses? google search got nothing |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 10:46am
| I do alot if business with Berry, but for a low rpm Allis cam I'd still say go with Barney..degree it straight up or 104/105 degrees |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 4:12pm
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Barney about two weeks ago told me he wasn't going to have anymore ground . I am waiting on a little cash flow to purchase his good cores to have ground however he could have changed his mind it has been two weeks. If you run most of the grinds in a cam dr. you find most are exactly the same pattern with the largest being .330 lobe lift and 276 to 280 advertised duration . barney , berry, bullitt , jones, comp. etc jmho
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 09 May 2013 at 8:16pm
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I've got ground cams on hand and some more at the grinder. Depending on your engine and what you're doing I change the lobe seperation angle a bit. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: cotncrzy
Date Posted: 13 May 2013 at 8:26am
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wi50, I need to get with you quick! I am thinking of a new cam, would like to discuss what you have. I want to keep mine going till I can do the swap. ------------- C, WD45,WD puller, 185, 200, 7060 Red Belly, 7060 Black Belly,8010, and a R52 Gleaner, AND PROUD OF THEM! |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 15 May 2013 at 6:34am
| Pank said he was waiting on cash-flow to buy a few of Barneys cams... But a few weeks ago his " machine shop" was so busy with pulling motors circle track motors and drag engines. He also stated that he had 5 union machinists working for him... But he has to wait fir cash flow to buy a few $225 dollar cams????????? Now i obviously don't take him seriously. But, it's still fun to point out inconsistencies ...Jmho.. |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 15 May 2013 at 10:46am
Barney likes pankey as much as everyone else so he's chareing at least tripple for the cores. With pankeys cam specs an engine will make 1/3 the power of one with a stock cam. 3x the price for 1/3 the performance. Anyone need to ask why he's waiting for a few bucks to buy parts$ ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
mlpankey wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 May 2013 at 4:46pm
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you really should use a cam dr. you will find those specs on a lot of the cams. why i posted them. it is offered at least by five cam grinding shops. i dont like having money tied up in parts awaiting to be sold . I rather have Ron or Mike grind a cam based on cubic inches and compression vs a off the shelf ,"we offer two grinds that you get into with a lot of cam grinders . Its more about custom at our shop than got one on the shelf . 150 is what i get charged at rons to have a cam done mike is a little more. 75 dollars for core plus 150 = 225 . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 6:28am
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I know this is a older thread but, Berry info: www.berrycammn.com ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Kevin in WA
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 2:26pm
| Berry Cams has changed ownership from what I have been told, and the quality of work is not the same. a friend of mine sent him a D17 cam to be ground to 175 specs, and it came back way off. I think Barney used to send him work also but has recently also had trouble with his grinds. Hopefully Berry Cams will improve their work in the future. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 5:00pm
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I've had a few people supply me with cams for their engines that came from Berry in the recent past. The grind is so far off that it simply won't work. These people didn't know what they wanted in the first place and let Berry do the thinking.....or just said they wanted that magic 175 grind. I have used Berry to grind cams recently, but I supplied the data and specs I wanted, they were just fine. I have a couple other grinders grind cams and keep a few different grinds on hand. When it comes to cams, let the right people spec things out. This is an old thread, but if you read some of the above posts you'll see some self proclaimed wizard tell us to use a cam with an advertised duration of 270-280 degrees. Most of you don't know what that means, and the few who do know better than to take advice like that. For that type of an advertised duration to work with any reasonable @.050" numbers the ramp would be so "slow" that the engine would be extremely lazy, and good at burning exhaust valves. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2014 at 9:04am
| I know what engine the cam the wizard advertized duration went into and it didn't work for Larry in Ohio but in the engine the wizzard put it in is very large in cubic inches and the exhaust temps are normal .big cams work in big engines . little cams work in little engines |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 7:15am
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Exhaust temps are the same as ambient temps for you boys. Boom after a few failed attempts. I seam to recall the boy not being able to move the sled. I also recall the nitwit saying that a siamesed port engine wouldn't tolerate more than 224* @ .050" furcation can. So if you still think you need 280/advertised duration, then explain why such a slow ramp is good for a torque engine......seams to me like you boys don't know enough about camshafts to post any legitimate information, or don't rember what you post and make up bs to cover more bs (which is the case here). ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:07am
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So who do you guys recommend to do cams then? I am planning to spiff up my D17 226 this winter for a little more power. Has the stock 4" bore A-C pistons in it now and stock cam. So I really need to source: 1: A 175 gas carb or at the min. the 175 venturi (If I can find one). Jetting changes? 2: CAM change. More torque? 3: AGCO 175 pistons or WD flattops? I pull 3 mph stock class. I would like to use 2nd Low for a bit more speed or maybe even 2nd Hi and lug it to the end and then give more RPM's as tire slip more. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:52am
| Charlie ken dakin bought seven or eight individual regrind cams from different cam grinders the ones they advertise as a stocking grind for them and they all cam doctor the same . a radical grind for 240 inches is a stock grind for 400 inches and that information feed to grinder of choice will make all the difference from a can the grinder stocks as a shelf cam to a custom cam . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:00am
| Marty the wizard said advertised duration and didn't specify the lifter rise so I don't know what the duration is at .050 to speculate do you? |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:13am
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The Berry grind that people keep getting that is messed up is about 280* advertised duration and about 242* or 244* @.050 duration. It simply won't work. I believe the master lobe numbers to be 317f but I'm going from memory. I've had a few guys drop off their "175 grind" and this is what Berry gave them. I called Berry to ask why they did this and got a genaric reply that is "what we do for all of them".... Well I hope they didn't grind to many that way as it's a waste of a cam core. Your bone stock cams will have a .050" duration of about 185*. I've measured several from early to late and wrote down the specs in my notebook, its not in front of me now and I don't recall the seat or advertised duration or the lobe separation angles (LSA) 105 or so sticks in my mind. The biggest drawback to the stock cams is the can to crank timing, or can phasing. The events are happening way to late. Typically if I put a degree wheel on and mark true TDC and find the intake centerline or ICL of a can it's out there around 112 or 113* ATDC. This isn't good. You've got a reasonably stock engine, if you were to use a plain stock can and simply advance it one tooth you would gain a bunch. One tooth is worth just over 13* of crankshaft rotation. This means that your ICL would be right around 100*atdc. I'd rather see you split the tooth by slotting the holes in the gear, or cutting a new keyway in the shaft and go for a 104*atdc ICL. It would be better to add about 10 degrees of duration @.050 lift by having a can ground with a .050" duration of in the mid 190's, for example 195*@.050", and a seat duration of roughly 235* This will vary slightly with the can grinders master lobes and what they have to work with. With your smaller engine, slow speed and reasonably stock parts, I'd keep the lobe separation angle down around 105 or 106*. If I'm getting a cal for a mid sized engine I go for a 107*LSA and for the larger engines 108 or 109 LSA. All these are just slight changes with minimal effect on things. I'll go with a .050" duration of about 202 to 210 on the mid sized engines depending on what they run for rpm, carb, head work etc. On the larger engines I'll add a little more duration, and as I said spread the lobe separations just a bit. Long story short, if you're cheap, throw the stock cam in one tooth advanced....if you're ambitious measure the ICL and degree the cam in at 104 ICL. If you want to spend a few hundred bucks there will be slight improvement by grinding a cam for about 195*@.050 duration on both lobes, 106 LSA and decreeing or timing the cam to 104 ICl. It is nice if a grinder will grind a split duration, meaning one duration on the intake lobe and another on the exhaust lobe. These siamesed port 4 cyl engines can benefit from a slightly longer intake duration then exhaust. I use some cams with a 210*@.050 intake and a 195@.050 exhaust. The problem with the siamesed port is the exhaust overlap on one cylinder while the intakes on a shared port are on overlap, any to much duration causes a problem and by trimming the exhaust duration back, the engine can tolerate a little more time to breathe on the intakes. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:16am
280 on the seat is more than the engine would tolerate, if it were 250*@.050" the ramp is fine, but duration to long. If it were 210*@.050 the ramp is to slow and you'll burn valves and have a pooch.....you should know better, the more you post, the dumber you appear. 280 on the seat, is 280 on the seat....no matter what the rest of the numbers are it won't work, and if it does the ramp is so slow that the engine is starving at the start and has no ram charging effect at the end of the cycle. Go spend the day on Google reading up on basic camshaft knowledge pankey and try to post something of reasonable intelligence tomorrow. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:41am
| Seams to me that the reason everyone wants to use .050 lifter rise is because that's where apples compare to apples .its my understanding that grinders use anywhere from .004 to .008 lifter rise for advertised duration but what do I know that's why I trust the wizard |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 12:30pm
| who is the wizard? |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 1:36pm
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I have no idea what all the degrees and lift does. I just want a better running motor :) ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 5:19pm
|
In very simple terms, duration is measured in crankshaft degrees of rotation. Meaning that if a cam has 200*@.050" lift of duration on the intake lobe, the crankshaft rotates 200* from .050" opening of the valve to .050" from being closed. Then there's valve lash adjustment to take into account and rocker arm ratio. So the first bit of lift is used up taking the slack out of the parts, then more is used to get the valve off it's seat to the point of it allowing air to start moving or in the case of the valve closing to allow air to stop flowing into the cylinder. So if you have 180* of crankshaft rotation from TDC to BDC and your can has say 200* of duration @/.050 lift, then the valve has to be moving before the piston reaches TDC and it's still not closed after BDC right? This is where we take into account cam timing. For some math let's say that cam with 200* if intake lobe duration is timed with the intake centerline at 100 degrees ATDC that means that 5he can lobe is exactly half way through its movement when the piston is at 100* past TDC. So the post on still has to move down for another 80* of crank rotation, the valve is open for 100* or 20* past BDC. The incoming air charge into the cylinder has inertia, it can overcome the post on heading in the bore some and still charge the cylinder for some time but eventuallyt the piston movements will cause a reversion. There's typically 2 numbers for duration, one is advertised or seat duration measured as the lifter starts moving to the point of closing a few thousands and the other is measured at .050". The difference tells us how fast the can ramp is, or how aggressive it is. That's all for now, but hopefully give a basic understanding. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 5:20pm
|
In very simple terms, duration is measured in crankshaft degrees of rotation. Meaning that if a cam has 200*@.050" lift of duration on the intake lobe, the crankshaft rotates 200* from .050" lifting of the lifter to .050" from being closed. Then there's valve lash adjustment to take into account and rocker arm ratio. So the first bit of lift is used up taking the slack out of the parts, then more is used to get the valve off it's seat to the point of it allowing air to start moving or in the case of the valve closing to allow air to stop flowing into the cylinder. So if you have 180* of crankshaft rotation from TDC to BDC and your can has say 200* of duration @/.050 lift, then the valve has to be moving before the piston reaches TDC and it's still not closed after BDC right? This is where we take into account cam timing. For some math let's say that cam with 200* if intake lobe duration is timed with the intake centerline at 100 degrees ATDC that means that 5he can lobe is exactly half way through its movement when the piston is at 100* past TDC. So the post on still has to move down for another 80* of crank rotation, the valve is open for 100* or 20* past BDC. The incoming air charge into the cylinder has inertia, it can overcome the post on heading in the bore some and still charge the cylinder for some time but eventuallyt the piston movements will cause a reversion. There's typically 2 numbers for duration, one is advertised or seat duration measured as the lifter starts moving to the point of closing a few thousands and the other is measured at .050". The difference tells us how fast the can ramp is, or how aggressive it is. That's all for now, but hopefully give a basic understanding. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 6:46pm
| The wizard says ramp rate or lifter acceleration depends solely on lifter diameter not duration. In fact the math for maximum velocity goes like this example he gave me lifter diameter 1.250 x 3.14 or pie divided by 360 gives you inches in degrees so .0109 inches in degrees is a fast as a 1.250 diameter mushroom lifter can be accelerated . The wizard went over this with you when you was arquing that 60 teeth in 360 degree was a 6 degree timing change but now your agreeing with wizard that its more . the allis 226 can gear tooth is about .400 thick a 8 degree eccentric cam bushing has .090 more material on one side . if .090 is 8 degrees how much is .400 ? |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 7:05pm
| Wizard says intake closing point can be figured by advertised duration as follows 280 ÷2 =140 +LSA 112=252 - advance ground into cam along with 180=68 degrees abdc |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 7:08pm
The morning crew will love this abomination of geometry....you boys have a lot to learn. If a gear has 60 teeth, there's 6 degrees per tooth, if its a can gear driven at half crankshaft speed, then 12/degrees per tooth. Basic math boys and girls. If you place an offset bushing in it, the offset would depend on the bushings placement from the center, or in other words its radius....again basic geometry. When we get to a more complex geometrical shape such as a cam lobe, lifter acceleration is controlled by a combination of cam profile and lifter diameter. Part of this can profile is the difference in duration from one lift compared to another lift. Advertised duration and @.050" duration are a result of the ramp profile of the cam, thus controlling the lifter. You should have listened to me earlier and taken the whole day to use Google, it appears a few hours weren't enough for you to learn enough. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 7:36pm
You are doing a fine job reenforcing my point that a can with 280* of duration no matter how its measured is to much for the engine in question.....though for a highly boosted engine at high speeds it works fine.  ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:09pm
| Big cams for big engines little cams for little engines . so if I was building little engine 207 duration at 50 and .365 lift on cam give a net valve lift with 1.5 rocker of .5475 suits you call Charles at can craft lol |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:17pm
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As wizard said and has always said i A cam tooth is more than six degrees your good at looking up his old post to see where you argued that it was six degree instead of more that you are now in agreement with the wizard that it is . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:20pm
| Wiz says 56 degrees of overlap just qualifies as a mild performance cam and that's what the 280 advertised has. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:49pm
One of them didMarty can you imagine trying to get past the most simple of problems??? Gesh, kind makes a guy feel sorry for em eh? |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 8:59pm
| Wiz said you probably wouldn't get this cause LW didn't but if you built a 4.125 bore 4.5 stroke flat top piston .250 below deck should be 16.2 static compression but if you used a 280 advertised can with intake valve closing 68 abdc and a 7.5 stock length rod your dynamic compression is 12.5.1and motor will run fine on 110 motor octane race gas . |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 9:05pm
| And to "run fine" on 110 octane fuel, what exactly is your ignition timing set at for 2,000 RPM running??????? |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 5:01am
what are you talking about not working for me Pank? ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 6:33am
| The isky cam you traded to Pankey didn't work for you . The cam Pankey gave you in the trade from what I gather did work for you. Is this correct Larry ? Did Pankey spec a working cam for you? . here's a anoalogy Pankey left me with last night . you have a swimming pool and are filing it with a garden hose . the time the valve is open to closed when the pool is full is duration now fill the pool with a fire house time hydren is open till valve is closed is duration . so when by Marty's account the intake port of allis is the garden hose . the question is why would you want less time for garden hose to be open |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 7:03am
| Pankey wants to know Larry Ohio when you ran the isky cam profile in a small cubic inch allis did you ever burn a exhaust valve like Marty seams to think that cam profile will do . |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 7:41am
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The wizard is full of wis-dumb. 280 degrees of exhaust duration won't burn exhaust valves, but slow ramps will. You see the numbers on a cam card are important there pank. Seat duration and @.050" tell how the beginning of the ramp is shaped.....but I've covered this before and you haven't quite picked up on it yet. But what 280* of exhaust duration will get you is a real short power stroke and a lot of overlap. In fact on a siamesed port 4 cyl engine like the allis, you'd have 2 intake valves open at the same time on the same port, one opening and the other closing and one exhaust paired to the opening intake open also as well as one exhaust opening on another cylinder on the engine. The result would be a sonic crack transfered to the intake.....long story short, draw it out on paper for yourself pank. You really don't know what you're talking about. The engine wouldn't make enough power to drive across the yard. Those numbers on a cam card mean something. Learn what they mean, how to interpret them and how they relate to the engine....again come back tomorrow and try to display some level on intelligence. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 7:51am
| What you didn't get from the wizard is the diameter of lifter sets the ramp speed . he gave me the formula and I posted it in prior above posts. So if it is slow like you say then Larry should have experienced a burned exhaust valve . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 7:56am
| Marty you see Larry ran that isky cam so it had real world testing and not computer WiFi testing . so if it burned a exhaust valve in a low ci engine he will know ? |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:08am
| can you please explain to me how lifter diameter sets the ramp speed? thanks |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:18am
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I'm certain you are not bright enough to know what you're trying to argue about. I'll outline it so your simple mind can understand it. You are saying that you think a camshaft with 280* of duration on both lobes makes a good pulling camshaft in this siamesed port 4/ cyl engine. Though you don't know the other specs on the cam, and those with new found fascination of the internal combustion engine would only look at the big numbers. I'm saying that there's no way a camshaft with 280* will work (in this application of course) unless of course the @.050" numbers are very low, in which case the ramps would be to slow to be any good, and that you have a poorly designed camshaft if it does work..... At least you can go back to the drawing board now and make up some bs. Maybe you'll figure out why you were unable to move the pulling sled when you put the cam in your engine...... ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 8:26am
He can't. Though you know better, it is fun to amuse oneself at the expense of idiots isn't it. At least for a few minutes anyway. I'd imagine panks cranks with his Gleason has taken all the work on the east coast and his 5 highly skilled employees are carving out billet cranks and you are bored today. We'll have to catch up sometime. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 9:42am
| Remember the formula Pankey gave for maximum lifter acceleration . a allis 1.250 mushroom lifter will always have a faster ramp to .050 than a automotive .904 roller lifter .call Charles at cam craft |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 10:00am
I am sure that the Whizbanger will have an entertaining, but largely fact free response but until he comes back to entertain us the actualities are this. In order to gain EFFECTIVE duration and lift over and above stock a cam grinder wust increase the ramp quickness or speed meaning that in a given number of degrees the lifter rises X amount. But there are limitations, accelerations come into play at some point but on this subject the limitation is this. With a flat tappet the faster the ramp the more the actual contact area moves away from the centerline of the lifter. If the contact area moves off the face of the lifter it isnt hard to imagine how long things will last, about as long as the Whizbangs pulling engine did. Knowing all this it stands to reason that if lifter diameter gets in the way of a certain requirement for ramp than increasing it will allow the ramp to be increased by the person designing the grind. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 10:09am
Marty, I think it goes way past all that? I was gazing out the window and it hit me!! I have one of these hanging outside my big window. Hey Whizbanger, these are not degree wheels!!! Its a thermometer, different kind of degrees!!!!  No dang wonder the boy is so confused!!!! |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 10:55am
|
OK that thermometer thing was funny. To Marty If I understand correctly with all things being the same other than the cam grind, a cam with a advertised duration of 270 and 220 degrees of duration at .050" will have a faster ramp than a cam ground with 270 degrees of advertised duration and 240 degrees @ .050? That stands to reason as the lifter will have to travel farther in fractions of an inch in the same amount of time(in degrees) with the 270 / 220 cam. Correct me if I am wrong. I am a simple man. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 11:17am
| If advertised duration is measured at .004 lifter rise then the duration will be greater than it would be if measured at .015 lifter rise . |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 12:25pm
|
Pank, I never burnt any valves, but always was twisting that engine for all it was worth. It ran and pulled good, but I knew it was not any good for low RPM, so out it came. I have a Barney cam in it and the other I traded is still setting on the shelf waiting to go. I will see if I still have the numbers for it to post them here. I gave you that info so post it up. It had lots of lift and duration. That engine was not lazy at all. The cam had been passed around the neighborhod like an old whore downtown. I cannot take credit for ordering the profile, just using it. Yes, I ran a small cubic inch but never had any problems keeping up, just the Ollies had bigger engines around here ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 1:48pm
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Think of it this way Mike, with all things being equil other than the .050" duration the lesser duration cam has to rotate further from advertised duration to get to the .050" of lifter rise, the lifter accleration is slower. If I have a 270 / 220 duration lobe the cam rotates 25 degrees of engine rotation or 12.5 degrees of camshaft rotation to achieve .050" lifter movement. If I have a 270 / 240 duration lobe the cam rotates 15 degrees of engine rotation or 7.5 degrees of camshaft rotation for the lifter to move .050" I bet you've found out what to much duration does....the engine hits a wall and the torque goes flat, trim the duration back and they'll run like crazy. So in this case if we use that 280 degree cam that pank thinks is so great, we simply can't have per say a 240 degree @ .050" duration, we would have rapid lifter accleration, but again for the siamesed port 4 cyl engine will not tollerate 240 degrees of .050" duration, the exhaust is pushing out the intake upon opening and on closing the piston is to far up in the bore pushing air back into the port. It may tolerate 220 degrees for example, but to get from 280 to 220 there's 30 degrees of engine rotation on each side of the lobe, hence me saying that the ramp would be very slow or lazy. Typical lobe @.050" durations used in the 4 cyl antique pulling engines we would see 190 on the mild side, 210-220 is pretty common and sometimes into the mid 220's on the bigger engines if they are going to run some RPM. It's typical to see 35*-45* advertised duration than .050* duration numbers. Most of the cams though for these Allis and Farmall will be between 195 and 215 @ .050" in order to work well for a pulling application, with some a slight bit on both sides of those numbers depending on if the engine is larger or smaller, carb, head and manifold limitations and RPM range. So again, in order for an advertised duration of any reasonable lifter lift say (.006-.012) (as some grinders use a different number) to work, the ramp would be very slow to get to a reasonable . 050" duration with these engines...... and by going to a shorter advertised duration, with the same .050" duration, the engine would gain torque through it's operating range. In Larrys case, the cam was passed around the neighborhood for a good reason and he's much happier (I'd assume by the wording of his post) with something Barney sent him which would have a .050" duration in the range I posted above. I know some of the low RPM cams coming from Barney were in the 195* @ .050" range and the higher RPM or bigger engines had a tad more. I'd be willing to bet that the 280 seat duration cam was around 230* @ .050", maybe even a tad more, 234* maybe. We know how well it works and how much happier pullers are when they drop to a more reasonable range, and have a faster ramp....of course pank can't tell us, he blew his engine (governer failure coupled with a connecting rod made for a 15hp per cylinder engine) with no proof of it working well and refused to show up at the dyno challenge he requested. Though he claimed to build an engine, to date no one's seen the Tennesee Stud make an appearance. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 2:07pm
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OK, so other than moving my stock cam 1 tooth advance, I need to source a good cam and have it machined. Barney is backed up a year or more, the guy in NC died a few years back, Berry does not do a good job.... So who is left? or is there a source for pre-done ones out there? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 2:07pm
| Marty you didn't read Larry's post did you ? |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 2:12pm
| 1800-426-2261 can craft speak with charles |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 2:24pm
| is he the wizard? that's who I would want to speak with. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 2:43pm
That number is for Cam Craft Cams ? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 7:18am
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There's a number of cam grinders Charlie. Crane, Cam Craft, Lunati, Comp Cams, just to name a few names. There's smaller less common names for example Mike Jones is a camshaft design expert who I have talked to and given information and flow numbers to and had grind cams in the past. Gary Baker a well known Farmall engine builder out of Michigan grinds cams. Just like everything else, there's dozens more out there. In dealing with Mike Jones, he has sent me cams but service is slow, I had mike do a few cams for different engines. his numbers four some different engines were close to what I had wanted weather the engines were simple slightly modified 240 did or 400+ cid ones. Gary Baker has a grind that works well and takes the time to grind a split duration cam, meaning the intake and exhaust lobes have different grinds on them. Gary is fairley quick and I'll send him several cores machined and prepped for grinding at a time to make it easy. Berry is fine and reasonably fast, but don't let them do the thinking. And yes pank, I did read Larry's post. He traded you an old cam that had been passed around the block and bought one that worked much better....you used a cam in an engine that you don't know if it really worked or not. Couldn't move the boat on the first run and on the fifth run it went kaboom....so you're only helping me reenforce my point. Had your engine been so successfull and exceeded expectations, a simple repair would have been done and you'd be pulling. Instead you quit. You do make a fine secretary though pank. You are able to look up phone numbers and post them as well as avoid questions by Cranky and Dr Allis. Larry wants you to post some information, Dr wants some information and Cranky wants to know why the cam ramp has no effect on lifter acceleration. Just as in the good old days your man crush on me is evident. You'll reply to my posts and ignore others questions. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:01am
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I cannot find the numbers for the old ISKY cam, but here is what the machine shop did. Springs installed 1.715 @ 110#, open 1.140 @ 230#, bind @ 1.055. All I can say about that cam is it was a wide open, high rpm cam that was good for brush pulling but not mph pulling. When I started that, I switched cams. I have a Barney cam in it and the cam got in trade from you Pank is setting here waiting on my pulling funds to quit paying college tuition for my kids. After that, we'll go pullin again.
Another question that I have is who ground the cam I ended up with? Is there any numbers out there floating around for it? ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:20am
| Marty cranky asked who the wizard is . your post is the first post calling one the wizard so tell him who you were talking about and I kept going with . Dr allis 12.5 runs well on 110 motor octane for years with no indication of detonation on pistons when engine gets freshened . yes camcraft cams is the number that is given |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:24am
| Larry give Mitch a call 423-242-8596 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 1:31pm
| Sooooo, you don't actually KNOW what the timing is set at.......TDC or 30 degrees BTDC. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 3:20pm
| Yes Dr.I know where the timing is . its where it runs best . surely your a old hand and know how to time by ear |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 4:52pm
| Not something with that kind of compression. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 6:56pm
| Yes with that compression . one of the most common mistakes a person makes is timing one to a preset number instead of what the engine wants .the higher the compression the less total timing the engine wants. NGK -9 race plugs to can't run the ole ac45 . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 7:04pm
| The dynamic compression is just 12.5.1 because of what the can blows down and the gas is 110 motor octane not 110 advertised . advertised trips a lot of guys up on cams and gas |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 8:34pm
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If yours isn't running anymore (as someone reported earlier in the thread that it may be blown up...again), maybe setting the timing by the way it sounds isn't the best way to do it and should not be advised to others?? It appears you have a lot of theoretical info that doesn't work very well in real life. That's been mentioned a time or two on here also. There are a few pullers on here that are looking for sound advice and don't want to spend good money after bad from getting bad advice. If you have ran your tractor (this summer)and it has repeatedly done well then I stand corrected. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 6:58am
| Motor that's stuck in everybody's head was in 2010 its sept 2014 now right.plug readings will tell you where timing is and Pankey has two timing lights that have advance .yes I agree with you on the theoretical stuff this thread is a good example where Marty's theory on camshaft was proven wrong by real world running. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 7:51am
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Can you provide any results? Why Brian even offered to cover the august dyno challenge in the Hook magazine....rember your thread on yt wanting an engine build off? An event was scheduled a matter of a few hours away from you and the date had already been set. I made you well aware of the event at that time. Now please address Cranky's question as to why you say duration has no effect on lifter acceleration.....he's a real wizard. I did not call you a wizard, I called you a "self proclaimed wizard". Meaning you think your a wizard, and the rest of us think you are a joker. If you'd like me to explain in some simple terms, 2 cams with same duration numbers but different lift numbers would have different lifter acceleration rates (with the same lifter of course). If 2 cams had the same advertised duration, but different .050" duration numbers, the lifter acceleration rate would be different on them, the ramp rate is different. Please explain why duration numbers have no effect on lifter acceleration, as I just explained they do. You posted earlier they don't. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 7:53am
Just do you don't get lost. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Big Orange
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 2:14pm
| Building an engine has to do with A lot more important things, other than cam timing & duration. The combinations of dimensions of all parts, such as rod to stroke ratio, that controls the piston duration at TDC & BDC. Piston pins offset right or left & A lot more things I won't get into here and now. I have built all kinds of engines, for 45 years & I still don't know what all the right answers are, so lets all learn together, I learn something everyday, & I still don't know half of what some people claim they to know. Its all about competition, thats why its fun. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2014 at 7:43pm
| If the cam grinder uses .002 lifter rise for his starting and stopping point then his advertised duration may be 280 but the cam will not be as big as the other cam grinder that uses .010 lifter rise for starting and stopping point for a 280 degree advertised duration . again cams have to be compared at the same lifter rise . advertise duration is manipulated to sell cams to people who don't know camshafts and want the bigest . duration is time measured from a lifter rise starting point grinder chooses to use for opening point till it gets back to that number on closing side of cam . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 7:58am
| Marty maybe cranky will explain minor and major intensity to you . and why its important where the duration is and not solely what the duration numerically is . |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 8:37am
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Congratulations, you're starting to learn, a few days searching around the net is doing you some good. Now you'll be able to figure out why your previous statements are incorrect. Now let's work on the 56 degrees of overlap, but you'll first need to figure out more of your cam profile to know if the valves are moving or not. You see w all have different expectations, for some taking pictures of their tractor on the trailer or in the garage makes them happy. For others competing and doing well meets their expectations. For others, it's doing well in nothing but the highest levels of competition. As Mike pointed out earlier, all your "theories" are just that until proven. So where's the proof, a video of an engine running rough in the garage doesn't mean much......solid results from success in high levels of competition will. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 9:29am
| it seems this post veered off to .050 lift duration compared to advertised duration specs of camshafts.by using industry accepted intensity values for each application we can see that some cam specs. listed on this post are not within most engine builders desired range.to simplify valve motion in the range of .000 -.050 lift is to be considered,too slow and valve burning may occur,too violent(fast) and seat and valve face deterioration will occur,some refer to this as seating velocity.the lifter dia. limits valve opening rates but does not dictate opening rates.cam lobe design primarily controls valve action.to overcome lifter dia.limits nascar engines were built with tilted or canted lifter bores to increase opening rates..these engine were limited to .875 dia.(ford size) to level the playing field.this "trick" was utilized well over 25 years ago.i strongly suggest that most pullers will benefit from the years of knowledge and experience gained by cam experts,charles at camcraft was listed and is more than competent to advise anyone needing cam help. |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 9:46am
| to clarify lifter dia. limits valve lift rates, the larger the lifter dia. the faster the cam can be designed to open valves.if you exceed these opening rates for a given lifter face dia. the edge of the lifter will gouge or dig into to the camshaft lobe with disastrous results. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 10:27am
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Another factor is camshaft base diameter is taken into account, for a larger base diameter, either a faster rate could be achieved if needed, or a nominal rate to be gentler on the parts involved. Would you grind billet cams cranky? Or would you prefer to make the blank also? I'm just thinking out loud here. I made a few billets in the past and had sent them out for a roller cam in an oliver project where we were able to make some pretty good dyno numbers on. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 10:38am
| Cranky please tell Marty what design flank the allis factory cam core design that's going to be reground is ? He is starting to learn maybe. I still don't think he has the advertised duration difference down pat yet. In order to know what a can hydraulic ,major and minor intensity is you must have more than advertised duration . |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 10:46am
| A mushroom lifter diamter of 1.25 can actually have more intensity than a .842 roller lifter up to a point . I would have to do some computing to find the point where roller would surpass mushroom but i would think it would be way up the rpm range out of antique pulling rpms |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 10:58am
| To sum this up Marty took one piece of info advertised duration and started as a lot of inexperienced people do filling in the rest of the blanks and making assumptions . Marty says camshaft is to slow on his assumptions and would burn valves. Larry says camshaft was passed around and no engines burned valves that's the proof Marty can't see. I do agree with cranky Charles is a cam grinder and more qualified to get as in depth as client needs or wants to go. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 11:34am
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No cam grinder advertises their advertised duration at .002".... Sorry that's like saying my cam has 360* duration but the lifter isn't moving for 100*. You should thank cranky for exposing to you why your previous statements are wrong, as of course they are. Parts get passed around when they don't work up to someones expectations. Rember, I explained that different people have different expectations. Larry bought a cam with reasonable numbers as I pointed out, and walla, works better. Earlier you were claiming an intake valve closing point of 68*abdc.....depending on ICL, rocker arms used I have a very good idea of the duration. You can't try and bs us into thinking that this engine was competitive. Though it ran well enough to shoot a video of idleing in the garage I'm sure. I'm certain those stock rods held up fine, as the cylinder pressure was quite low and of course the cast pistons were fine. Timing on it would not be near as critical as of it was built properly. Now build an engine at 16/1 comp ratio as your example and build it to have a reasonable rate of volumetric efficiency and see if it makes a run. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 1:32pm
| Marty you silly silly boy . cam grinders do use different lifter rises for advertised lift . if we do like cam grinders say and look at two cams at .050 lifter rise and have the same duration at .050 for both cams even though they both have different advertised durations they will make the same peak horsepower. Now you say lifter rise is to slow and valve will burn it didn't Larry proved that . reason is your looking at one point instead of all things like the big orange fellow recomended . the lifter raisers raisers the pushrod pushing the rocker arm at a ratio and opens the valve . lifter rise velocity ×rocker ratio = valve speed and that's at what you were worried about burning but as Larry stated it doesn't . |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 1:47pm
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Did you know that isky typically uses .020" lifter rise for a advertised duration. Sometimes you'll see .006", maybe .007" or .012" for some. When you learn what the numbers on the cam card mean, you'll figure out where the decimal point goes. There's a significant difference from .020"-.002". Tape measures just don't suffice. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 1:52pm
| Intake closing point was figured with 7.5 rod 4.5 stroke 4.125 bore much like what Larry ran cam in that again didn't burn valves like you said . Larry said it ran well for brush pulling . I do not know how much compression Larry ran however the one you dubbed wizard did show that I believe if it had 16.2 static it would fall to 12.5 dynamic compression . which is still a good compression for low end torque without having to advance the cam to increase cylinder pressure as most do . it is safe to say that most builders pullers don't get into this level of knowledge most who do are just trying to impress their lesser knowlageable friends . however it is safe to say that you can be successful and not need this level of detail or understanding . Marty has won some pulls not understanding it all . |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 2:04pm
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And this 16.2:1 static engine you speak of is only theoretical....here you were telling us how great it ran, now its theoretical just as it was when you first mentioned it.....stop lying and pulling numbers from thin air for online calculates. Read my signature line. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: cotncrzy
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 3:17pm
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All I can say is Martys set up on engines has been unbeaten in official pulls. And in B/S pulls, been beaten one time. I cant say nothing else for a fact. Statistics are one thing footage is another! ------------- C, WD45,WD puller, 185, 200, 7060 Red Belly, 7060 Black Belly,8010, and a R52 Gleaner, AND PROUD OF THEM! |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 4:19pm
| Pankey says the biggest cam he ever seen duration wise was a comp cams grind in a allis g226 bored to 4 5/8 with a Ross flat top piston with 1.3 compression height on a 8 inch rod swung by a 6 inch stroked crank . He says anyone can figure the static comp.by those values . He says that Barney Taylor and Chad Steineger both pulled against it and both agreed it didn't have lugging power on the other end but both agree it was good enough when it died to win about as many natpa points championships as it got featured in hook magazine .mike tarbils 403ci engine had a lot stacked up against it I guess but some how it persevered. Sometimes what's on paper as a parts list don't add up but makes headlines in papers of popular pulling magazines. Cotton crazy you would have never known how Marty's stuff worked or didn't work if you hadn't listen to Mitch and removed the had clutch. However the stuff you had before might have worked if you had removed the hand clutch and made the wheel adapter before doing Marty's work and Pankey work all at the same time |
Posted By: cranky
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 7:15pm
  yes wi 50 we can grind from billet or produce the cam core/billet.these are pics of some billet cams we sell for the j-d 720/730 diesel.these were made from 8620 3" diameter round bar and are carburized to harden and prevent abnormal wear .high helix angle cam gears can present a challenge depending on camshaft configuration.we would be interested in discussing your needs,just private message me thanks |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 9:04am
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Pank, to clarify.....I never had any valve problems other than bent push rods Cant say about the other tractors that cam was in. Do you still have the numbers for that cam you got? I cannot find them or I'd put them out here. Go ahead and put the numbers out for the cam I got from you...no matter to me ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 10:04am
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You mean to tell me cottoncrazy that you're hitting the most popular pulls in Tennessee and surrounding areas. Running all types of classes of various weights, speeds and are practically undefeated? Why just reading this forum I thought everyone needed at a minimum of 400cid to even compete. I read here how much pulling pank claims to be doing and how many engines he and his 5 highly skilled employees are cranking out. Surely you could pull the choke and give all pankeys engines a chance one of these times. Oh wait, I'm sorry, removing the hand clutch is some serious rocket science......and I don't have a clue about engines, induction systems and camshafts. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 11:04am
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Cottoncrazy's enthusiasm is making me want to shake the mothballs off a couple of tractors and get back into the frackus. That being said, there are a very few folk I've seen on here (or met as a result of the Allis Forum) that I'd want to consult/collaborate on building a tractor. I'll list them. Dr. Allis OPS heads wi50 Dave Karpel Steve@B&B They each have their specialities - and I'll definitely be talking to them if the "fever" ever gets a hold on me enough to start pulling again. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 12:13pm
| Cotton crazy pulls in middle tn . Marty tell them how you did when you attempted to pull natpa against tarbills as you say to big ci for head to big a cam to big a intake valve to much compression . oh we know how it went no nelson wc featured in hook magazine. Dave karpell freshens don karpells Ronnie shipman built motor like WiFi does Taylor built motors . |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 12:18pm
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Hey Panky, while your at it - why don't you tell the folks how you did against us? I'm gettin' about as tired of your crap as anybody else. Results are the gist of braggin' rights - and I haven't seen yours. Plain and simple. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 12:25pm
| Oh Pankey got beat by guys that gave up on allis engines and built a Chevy engine. The Chevy didn't fair well against the IH red diamond of russels though. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2014 at 12:41pm
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I don't pull natpa. Never did, but I have several customers who are either in the top and very competitive, or dominant..... I ran outlaw high rpm and not much on my tractor was legal for natpa. If you weren't so ignorant pank, you would know that by the pictures of my tractor. I do pull NTPA amongst the highest levels of competition and the best builders in this country and perhaps the world. I do just fine, you can check the results for yourself. We each have our own expectations. Though mine are much higher than yours. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |