hd7gb stalling randomly
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68317
Printed Date: 22 May 2024 at 10:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: hd7gb stalling randomly
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Subject: hd7gb stalling randomly
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 10:07am
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Hey guys, Dont post on here much as its been winter and havent been using the machine. long story but please bare with me as I could use some help! Its my dads machine- AC HD7GB, has the 6 cylinder turbo diesel engine. We have been battling an oil leak for quite some time. we had thought it was the oil pan- leaking so much oil its covering the radiator/fan shroud. replaced pan gasket twice, no luck. oil seems to be coming from the front of motor, dad says around the damper area, any ideas on this? Second big thing- we got the machine stuck in the mud, sunk in good and deep. took two days to get it out. While getting it out, it did start to overheat a few times, but my dad would immediately shut it down when he noticed it. he got it out by going down a large hill, busted off the stack and broke two windows- machine seemed to run fine afterwards though. Dad parked it to try to fix the oil leak for the 2nd time, puts pan back on, start using it. Now here is the issue- we are building a road, and hauling dirt, we go get a bucket of dirt, drive up a hill approx 300 ft ill say, and the machine will sometimes stall out at the top. Also the exhaust seems to have a different "note" to it. The machine never stalled like this prior to getting it stuck, so did we do damage to it? any ideas where we should start looking? thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 10:48am
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Oil leak is probably front crankshaft seal. I can't think of why getting it stuck should cause engine problems, though. |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 12:47pm
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I'd start with fuel filters, or could be sediment or junk in fuel tank. I had that problem with an HD11- turned out someone had dropped a rag in the tank. (I'm assuming you are talking about the engine stalling) |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 12:53pm
| yes engine stalling. for example, we were putting in a pipe, machine sitting there off. start it up, back down the road- approx 300 ft, scoop a full bucket of dirt, drive back up, right near top machine wants to shut off. engine rpms start dropping. sometimes we could catch it and throttle it to save it, other times it shut off and would turn over quite a while before starting |
Posted By: michale34
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 3:15pm
| I would check those fuel filters and check the bottom of the tank sounds like something cloging pickup line when goinp up the hill i had this happen to a hd6g hilift found that some kids put a hand fuel of leaves in the fuel tank when loading a truck it would die. |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 3:52pm
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Check for pieces of governer O ring blocking the check valve on the return line from the injection pump. Will run and then stall out. After a few minutes it will restart OK. Had this happen on a D-21 with the same engine and a Roosa-Master pump. You can knock out the check valve ball and things could be OK but soon the injector pump will have to be rebuilt. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: Ages Cat
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 9:29pm
| Check the fuel supply, rag dirt over the fuel inlet, plugged filters, etc. Had this on 1 JD, one AC crawler and a Case crawler. Always turned out to be an obstruction to the fuel supply. |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2013 at 4:05am
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Sort of O/T Diesel apprentice son's addition to modern day fuel tank blockages they meetA pack of roll your own cigarette papers
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Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2013 at 6:02am
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check that your crankcase breather is not stuck with mud. I know this sounds strange, but I had my HD16 in the mud once and the breather tube got plugged. I was having issues with rpm changes and lack of power. i even shut off the tractor because i thought i was out of fuel but still had plenty. Turns out, since the breather was plugged, my crankcase pressure was venting through the oil return hose and through the governor vent on the back of my injection pump, cause the erratic operation.
A 7G may not have an injection pump with oil lubed governor, I dont know, I think it may have been only on the big motors but worth a check. Your issue does sound like a fuel blockage as other have stated. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2013 at 6:23am
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Thanks for the tips guys.
Actually when my dad did try to drain the fuel tank with the fitting on the bottom, he couldnt- turns out the pipe was all rusty, he punched a wire up thru it and a bunch of rust came out.
maybe we had junk in the bottom of the tank, and all the rocking the machine to get it out of the mud loosened it up.
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Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 6:18pm
| Ok bumping this up. Found our oil leak- crank seal. How do we get the balancer off? Just use a puller like a car? We tried but bent our puller, I'm guessing we need a bigger one? |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 6:42pm
| I hate to ask but you did remove the large bolt behind the hydraulic pump. The crank has a tapered nose. There is a spacer and seal sleeve behind the pulley (earley model) or later model hub. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 8:28pm
| With tapered crank nose do you have to lap in the adaptor like we did on the old Cummins? |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 9:19pm
You lost me. You mean the large bolt in the center of the balancer? We removed that. I haven't worked on the machine, just my dad |
Dozer wrote:Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 11:08pm
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Yes- sounds like bigger puller would be the order of the day. Back out the large bolt in the center of the damper, but leave bolt and washer installed, and push against bolt. If you don't leave the bolt and washer in place, you may get it in the teeth when it comes loose! Some guys put "never-seez" on the crankshaft nose, and that seems to make them stick even tighter- I guess they press on harder with the lubrication, and it is almost like they are welded on. They are best installed dry (in my opinion). I use an "H" puller, with bolts threaded into the damper hub.
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Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2013 at 7:15pm
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Bump- What puller are you guys using to pull these big balancers? I tried ordering a Mac tools puller but its too small. A 7/16" bolt won't even fit thru it. That's the size of the threads on my damper |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2013 at 7:21pm
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Most of the tooling for these machines were custom made in house if not worked by a dealer with factory equipment. A 1/2" steel plate cut out slotted for the bolts, with a nut welded to a center hole for a push bolt is typical, tighten it up and then hammer shock the set up to dislodge the hub. I have not found many large enough assembly pullers on the street worth the money to buy them. I have made many over my years busting knuckles and twisting bolts. |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2013 at 7:49pm
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I use a 522 OTC puller- same as Mac PP522. Like DMiller says- you can make your own if you are in a bind. Some guys have a piece of plate literally peppered with holes that they have used for various projects. I even saw a guy use a jack-all for a puller once- he just shimmed the end of the shaft with a bunch of nuts or a chunk of whatever he could find, then used bolts through the holes in the jack beam to force with. Where there's a will there's a way, they say.
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Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2013 at 8:45am
| thanks guys, We were able to take the puller we had ordered, and have the holes machined just slightly larger for the 7/16" bolt. got it off and the seal out saturday. Think dad is working on finding a new seal now |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 20 May 2013 at 8:20pm
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ok guys bumping this back up for opinions. fixed crank seal, machine still runs like  . my dad pulled the turbo because it has excessive shaft play, but we are suspecting more issues than just a turbo.prior to removing turbo here is what we had- we fixed seal, had radiator cleaned and checked while it was out, new fuel filters. machine will start up and run perfect. start down onto our property, if you try to pull up the long hill, by the top of the hill it is shooting black smoke out the stack (not tons but some) and my dad said whitish smoke out the breather tube. for now we have pulled the turbo to rebuild. could this be an internal issue? head gasket?
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Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 21 May 2013 at 9:30am
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Try removing the fuel line from the filters and force compressed air back to the fuel tank. Are you stalling from full throttle? Is it a sudden stall or does it loose RPM for a short time then stall? If you think it is internal loosen the line to the injectors one at a time while running at a slightly high idle while noteing RPM loss to locate a possible weak cylinder. I think the problem is with fuel delivery. |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 21 May 2013 at 9:44am
| The 7G is ment to run at full throttle. I think that if it smokes black at the end of a long climb up hill that says the govenor sensed the need for more fuel. If it run badly going up the hill that is another issue. Can you hear the turbo whistle? Is the air cleaner clear. My 7G is for sale located in south western NY |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 21 May 2013 at 10:29am
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The stall is not sudden, the machine gradually loses rpm and dies. I would probably say it wasnt from full throttle, maybe 3/4 throttle.
as far as turbo whistle, honestly i wasnt near the machine last time it ran- dad is relaying this info to me- BUT i do remember that after they got the machine stuck and out, the exhaust had a different note- if remember correctly it definitely did not have as distinct of a turbo whistle.
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Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 21 May 2013 at 2:16pm
| You could check your fuel line and valve under fuel tank could be haf plug . |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 23 May 2013 at 10:00am
| Thought I should weigh in and give some support to Calvin's post about the Roosa-Master pump. It' s a given that if you run one of those long enough it will start coming apart and plug up the check valve and give you all those symptons. We've had it happen on 11s and 645s. You can pull the check valve out of the line and see if it has pieces in it and clean it sometimes it might go for quite a while, but it's the first indication that you need to rebuild the pump. When you get all the other bugs worked out, that's where I'd look ( I can already picture those little pieces in there and digging them out with a pointed o-ring pick) I'm also assuming that it is a Roosa-Master pump |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 23 May 2013 at 8:21pm
| I have dealt with Stanadyne and Roosa Master pumps for a long time, that relief ball fitting to keep the main pump case from over pressurizing has been a sore spot for many owners not only to Allis but Deere, GMC, Ford and other engine companies that used them. As the advance coupler wears(fibrous on the old ones) the fibers become wadding in that fitting, If you do have a Stanadyne/Roosa and find trash there it is time for a rebuild. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 12:26pm
| When we crack an injector line how much fuel should be coming out? Ours is just like foaming out. We expected to be getting sprayed with diesel? |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 7:57pm
| The test is to bypass the fuel to one injector at a time. That cylinder will not fire causing decreased RPM. If there is no RPM loss that cylinder is NOT making power. Testing my HD6G showed a dead cylinder. I thought I had a bad head gasket because I was also blowing coolent from the radiator. I had a cracked cylinder sleeve. When you loosen the injector fitting a small amount of liquid fuel is released. It shouldn't be foamy. How the released fuel looks is very subjective. If the released fuel from all injectors looks similar do not worry. If one cylinder is foamy that injector line is sucking air. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 8:06pm
| Sorry to say one injector line foamy is not the line sucking air, these are high pressure systems, 1800-2400 psi discharge to the nozzles from the pump, foaming indicates the injector pump sucking air or getting air from somewhere in the suction line to the pump. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 8:08pm
| The fuel from a line that has been loosened should be consistent and liquid not foaming, it is in cc's delivery rate not ounces so is in small quantity but continuous as the injection element in the pump pushes fuel. |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 8:17pm
| Sorry I stated it poorly. Yes if a line is sucking air it can't be from the pressure side. Your correction is appreciated. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 25 May 2013 at 9:19pm
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Ok thanks for that. I figured foam meant we were getting air. Fuel filters are new and line to tank is clean. We know theubo is bad (have got rebuilt one yet). Where's the check ball on the pump at? I was not working on the machine today just relaying what my dad told me. Thanks guys. We are heavy equipment noobs but not diesel noobs. I m used to plugging my laptop into my diesel! |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 26 May 2013 at 4:21am
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On Roosa Master or Stanadyne pumps, atop the rectangular top cover there will be a steel fitting where the return fuel from the pump to tank is, it can either be a direct low pressure steel tube or a rubber hose to steel tube connection. Inside the fitting itself is the check ball. If it is hard sucking air it could be the umbrella seals on the pump drive shaft, one faces forward to stop oil migration to injection and one rearward to stop fuel to engine oil. In either case he pump should come off either with debris in the check ball or sucking air the seals are shot. The stanadyne type pump is typical to have the injection tubes arranged in a circular pattern on the outside ring of the injector head, this type pump has but one injection plunger and works much as a distributor on a gas engine. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 28 May 2013 at 8:13pm
| Took a quick glance at the injection pump today. It's got all the injector lines arranged around it in a circle so it's a stanadyne I guessing |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 28 May 2013 at 9:11pm
give me the numbers on the pump tag. I'm thinking this is new enough to have a DM pump on it, which does not have a flex ring. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 29 May 2013 at 7:39pm
 Pic of the pump tag |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2013 at 1:39pm
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Ok guys bumping this up. Worked on the machine today. New turbo is on. We checked all 6 injectors. Engine idling crack each injector line individually and the rpms dropped. Couldn't get both return lines out of the injection pump but took the top one off (injector return) and looked down in. Clean diesel. Started the machine and drove down the hill. Ran fine some blue smoke out of the stack. Start back up the hill and the machine starts blowing tons of blue smoke out the breather. Can idle down machine it would stop. Drive 10 feet up the hill it starts blowing out the breather. Blue smoke and looks like maybe some oil Does this mean we have an internal problem? |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2013 at 8:02pm
| Hate to say it but sounds like either busted rings or a scored cylinder. |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 6:42am
| With oil smoke after changing the turbo. I think your new turbo is bad. The return line from the turbo has to be unrestricted and about 3/4 inch diameter or the turbo will pass large quantities of oil into the intake manifold. If the return line is unrestricted try swaping the old turbo back. Once I replaced the turbo oil return line with a smaller metal line because I thought the hose looked ugly. I found a small reduction in diameter causes oil consumption. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2013 at 9:39am
| It's def not the new turbo. Oil drain line is the exact same one we took off and the machine did run fine with. We suspected rings or sleeves. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2013 at 4:31pm
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Well pulled the cylinder head off today. 1 piston melted pretty bad, hole in it. That explains our excessive smoke. Two other pistons have minimal damage on top. Prolly change 3 Can I buy just 3 pistons and sleeves or do I have to buy a whole set? |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2013 at 6:17pm
| You better buy a whole set |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 7:00am
| Your best purchase is an in frame overhaul kit. Individual sleeve, piston and ring kits are available for $213. There are deep and shallow dish piston designs and there are two main and rod bearing designs. When I was trying to locate main bearings for my motor I found that the main bearing set has been discontinued. I purchased a dealers remaining inventory. I have main bearings and rod bearings for sale. When you purchase the in frame overhaul kit and if the seller can not supply the bearings send me a PM I have the bearings in most sizes. |
Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2013 at 10:40am
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well the motor in the machine only has approximately 1000 hours on it prior to this, it had an in frame rebuild done. Why we are thinking of just replacing the 3. Is there a good website I can shop for parts online?
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Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2013 at 7:34am
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welp we pulled the 3 pistons and noticed the rod bearings had excessive wear, so we decided to do the whole motor in frame. knocked out all 6 sleeves yesterday and appears the previous rebuild only changed 2, 4 are still original. forgot to snap pics, will try to get one later of the piston
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Posted By: Tiger Joe
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2013 at 7:16am
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we put 6 new sleeves and pistons in the machine last weekend. followed the starting instructions with the kit regarding letting the machine crack over before starting. Once we got to the actually starting, hit the key and don't even think the engine spun over 1/2 a revolution and fired. Sounds really good too.
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