farmall h connecting rods
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6542
Printed Date: 29 Sep 2024 at 3:31pm
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Topic: farmall h connecting rods
Posted By: farmer_rob
Subject: farmall h connecting rods
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2010 at 10:28pm
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just wondering if connecting rods from a w4 be the same as farmall H since they were basically the same tractor .. h being the row crop version of the w4 standard.. i was just looking for a set of 4 for future use ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Replies:
Posted By: Tony OR
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 10:40am
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Rob !! Yes rods are same for W-4 as H. Tony ------------- To visit our web page click here: http://www.tonystractors.com - http://www.tonystractors.com Thank you and have a GREAT day!! Tony & Barb |
Posted By: BrianC,Ont
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 4:21pm
| Rob; Going to put some more compresion in the 226. |
Posted By: farmer_rob
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 4:30pm
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not the one im running now but the one im making for my father .. im just gathering the parts i need now .. i have a E226 and have 15.5x38's. ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 5:10pm
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I would like to know the dimensions of those rods, if you fellas would share? Do they have the same bearing width as a WD journal? My purpose is buliding a farm engine that is compressed for alcohol. I had much rather accomplish that with a compatible, longer rod than a taller piston.------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 6:04pm
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h rod center to center 8 inches long rod journal 2.250 if my notes are right. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 9:07pm
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Thanks Pankey.
You wouldn't happen to have the notes on a 135 Massey Ferguson 3 cylinder gas rod would ya? Seems I remember them to be real close to the same crankpin size as the Allis 226, diameter and bearing width. I once knew, but did not take notes on it - the folly of youth! ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: farmer_rob
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 10:13pm
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mlpankey i know there is more to stroking then just droppin in longer connecting rods.. does the crank have to be reworked so the throw would be longer .. i know there would be clearance issues with the block itself so there would be machining needed ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2010 at 11:25pm
| What??? |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 7:00am
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I think that you need to offset grind the crank, but Pankey knows for sure. I dont know how much or where exactly. ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2010 at 12:00pm
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standard 226 crank is 2.375 working from memory here at work the h rod is 2.250 . so the crank would have to be turned down you could pick up a slight increase in stroke if you offset ground it and picked up the whole 1/8 inch. If i was wanting to add stroke I would use the d19 gas or diesel rod wd45diesel rod etc you could pickup 3/8 stroke by going to the 2 inch rod journal or you can use the farmal c rod with a 1 3/4 rod jpurnal and pick up 5/8 stroke. now heres the kicker allis 226 rods are 7.5 iches long the h rod is 8 inches long the wd45 diesel and d19 rod is 7 3/8 long the c farmal rod is 7 1/4 long. I think the massey rod hudson asked about is the one jim headrick used in his 292 drag motors and i am thinking they are 7 inches long could be wrong on that . offset grind the crank for the h rod with the 4.125 bore is 247 cubic inches d19 wd 45 diesel rod crank offset ground for that rod is 260 cubic inches same bore 4 1/8 . c farmal rod offset ground crank 273.9 cubic inches with 4 1/8 bore. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 8:46am
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The 135 Massey rod is much bigger than what can be used in a 292 chevy. I rebuilt one several years ago and noticed the rods would be a good cross-breed for the Allis, but never wrote down the measurements. In the years since, I've forgotten what they were. What I do remember was that the rod bearing was a close match in mm to the 2.375" journal with a very close match on bearing/journal width as well. I'm almost certain they were 8" long or over - but wouldn't swear to it. Very large/heavy rods, not really suitable for pulling, but perhaps good for use in a modified engine to farm with (which is what I'm after). The mopar flathead rods are a good bunch of rods to consider, mainly because they're plentiful. The smaller versions have a 2" journal 1.625" wide with the bigger 237/251 CID versions having a 2.125" diameter journal. For some reason mopar used a single piston compression height, and varied the rod lengths for various strokes. Makes for some variability that helps tailor a build. I copied the following information off the Vintage Power Wagon site. The CID, Stroke, and corresponding rod lengths for the mopar L-6 type engines. Piston Displacement 218 cu. in. 230 cu. in. 237 cu. in. 251 cu. Stroke 4 3/8” 4 5/8” 4 1/4” 4 1/2” Rod Length 7 15/16” 7 13/16” 8” 7 7/8” ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: farmer_rob
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 10:11am
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so how much material is left between cylinders if u bored it out too 4.5"..if thats im thinking i would have 350 if it stroked to 5.5 ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 4:22pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
farmer_rob wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 4:27pm
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thats interesting hudson i would like to see how beefy the mopar rods are . headrick used some type of massey rod may have been a different engine than the 135 before they went to aluminum to absorb some sock to try to keep the 292 crank from breaking. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2010 at 9:53pm
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Fairly beefy rods for the journal size.
Actually, they were manufactured by Atlas - same company that made the Allis rod. Both engines were initially designed about the same time, very similair looking through the "I" profile of the rod.
Best part about the mopar rod is that they are common. You can buy a remanufactured rod over the counter at the NAPA store and not even need a core. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 8:31am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 9:32am
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My redneck automotive engineering tells me that to figure my true compression ratio I have to take into place the measurement of my first compression ring placement. So if I was wanting to yeild every smigen of hp i could from compression i would have to use a flat top piston because the first compression ring would have to be in the highest position of any other design. I dont think anything is gained from the gas that ends up between the piston and cylinder wall even though a multi spark ignition could take some of this out in under 3000 rpms I still think some of that gas trapped between the piston and cylinder wall will only be burnt when its pumped out into the hot exhaust system. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 10:07am
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The pins are 55/64" or 0.8594". Like you mention regarding pin dia. vs. pin length, the original application for that pin was in a 3.25" diameter piston. The rod's pin hole is bushed and is meaty enough to enlarge and rebush safely up to .998-1.00". You can get tapered pins to save on weight, tapered inner diameters of the pin itself. They are usually thinner the closer you get to the cylinder wall. Thickest where they go through the rod. That's a tough call on an Allis due to the rod offset from the cylinder centerline, which is a fairly unique characteristic to Allis 226-type engines. It would be safer/cheaper just to use a straight pin of sufficient thickness and not have to worry about where the rod was on the pin vs. the taper. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: farmer_rob
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 10:14am
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That's a tough call on an Allis due to the rod offset from the cylinder centerline, which is a fairly unique characteristic to Allis 226-type engines.... i didnt know about this could u explain alittle more please.
thanks ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 11:32am
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I am getting thouroughly confused Rob I thought you were going to use the H rod. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 12:33pm
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The piston pin off center or the crank shaft not in line with the centers of the cylinders are two ways to cut down on piston slap. The geometry of either pushes the piston from side to side on the cylinder before combustion when the pressure is smaller. That keeps the noise of that shift quieter. Crankshaft offset can also improve engine performance by reducing the side thrust at the piston during the power stroke, e.g. the piston, rod, and crank journal are closer to parallel with the cylinder bore. Gerald J. |
Posted By: farmer_rob
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 2:55pm
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yes mlpankey my first question was about the H rod because from past post everyone mainly used H rods to get the extra stroke. between the H rod and the normal 226 rod doesnt seem to be much difference in lenght . i was told that the main difference between the 2 rods are that the H rod the main cap bolts r off set or not level unlike the 226 rods.. this off set would lend itself better for having less clarence issues..am i right?.
sorry for the questions and confusion but i havent built an engine YET but will once time and money permits.. hoping for winter of 2011
thanks rob ------------- if farming was easy everybody would be doing it |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 3:10pm
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yes the caps are offset the rod is a half inch longer. the rod it self does not add any stroke . the stroke comes from either offset grinding the crank to a smaller rod journal or welding the crank and then offset grinding to a smaller journal. If youre only going to stroke it to 5.5 which requires welding material to the crank then offset grinding the crank. a straight cap rod will clear the camshaft . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 4:56pm
One of the things about the Allis engine, that lends itself to larger bores for its overall size, is that the bores are equally spaced in the block. Most engines of the era were not, but were grouped in pairs based on the crank's main bearing placement. Two cylinders close together, a space that corresponded with the main bearing, then two more cylinders - etc. Such as a stock H or M farmall, a quick look underneath thoese engines reveal the rods in the dead center of the wrist pin bosses, every thing is on center in relation to its respective "pair".
If you look at the 226 from the underside with the crank, rods, and pistons installed, you'll notice that the rods are to one side of the piston rather than splitting the center of the piston's wristpin bosses. That is what I was referring to. It would be hard to have a tapered wrist pin made that corresponded to the rod offset between the wrist pin bosses.
Its not that big of a deal until you order a custom set of pistons, then realize you can't get your rod to move over enough to align with your journal. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 5:22pm
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still nothing a little milling on the pin side of the rod cant take care of. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2010 at 8:03pm
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hudson most the massey 135 ci 144,152,192,201,208,232,242ci used a rod bearing size 2.2485 176continental 2.0615 193 ,212,236 used a 2.4490 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 12:23pm
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[QUOTE=mlpankey] yes the caps are offset the rod is a half inch longer. the rod it self does not add any stroke . the stroke comes from either offset grinding the crank to a smaller rod journal or welding the crank and then offset grinding to a smaller journal. If youre only going to stroke it to 5.5 which requires welding material to the crank then offset grinding the crank. a straight cap rod will clear the camshaftQUOTE] Sorry, but i am confused about this paragraph. Could you clear this up, please. This has been very informative. At what stroke would welding be necessary rather than offset grinding alone? THANKS!!!! ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 12:36pm
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well you only achieve 90 percent for stroke of what you remove . So if I offset grind a true 2.375 crank journal to utilize a farmall c 1.750 rod journal that would be .625 at 100 percent but we only get 90 percent so that would be a 5.0625 and have a standard rod journal now if we went fourty under it would be close to 5.100 stroke. That is as little of rod journal I know of that you can use . So any more stroke would require welding material to the rod journal itself. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2010 at 1:34pm
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O.K. that makes sense. Thanks a lot for your help. Jay ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 7:01am
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Stroke 101:
The stroke of the crankshaft is measured by the distance the piston moves from top dead center to bottom dead center.
To get an additional 1/2" stroke you would have to remove 1/4" of materal from the top of the crankshaft journal at bottom dead center and add 1/4" of material to the top of the crankshaft journal at top dead center. Or off set grind the crankshaft rod journal much smaller. This would cause the piston to move 1/4" higher and 1/4" lower in the sleeve adding 1/2" to the stroke.
A longer rod will only mean you will need a shorter piston wheather you do or don't stroke the crankshaft.
If you install a one inch longer rod without changing your crankshaft or piston the piston will be one inch higher in the sleeve or in most cases above the deck. (deck being the top of the block where the head bolts fast)
The piston will travel down one inch less in the sleeve. The stroke is still the same but it is a non workable condition.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2010 at 8:47am
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In the most simplistic way of however you do it offset grinding or combination of welding and offset grinding . is you simply move the centerline of the cranks rod journal further out away from the centerline of the crankshafts main journal then multiply it by 2 for the full distances of piston movement as Dick mentioned. If I drawed two circles one above the other and drew a lign straight through the center as to measure the diameter of each circle the distance between the circles would be the center to center or half the cranks stroke .IF I remove material from the bottom of the upper circle then I have increased the center to center distance in affect adding stroke to the crank. Now I have just made eveybody with a tombstone welder and lathe in their shop a crankgrinder . NOT SO! Its A LITTLE MORE COMPLEX THAN JUST THOSE TOOLS IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO IT WITH JUST THOSE TOOLS I HOPE YOU HAVE ENOUGH MAIN JOURNAL MATERIAL TO TURN DOWN TO GET IT BACK STRAIGHT FROM THE WRAPAGE OF WELDING WITHOUT HAVING TO MAKE THE MAIN BEARINGS ALSO.
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |