Power Crater vs Flat Top
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=60255
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Topic: Power Crater vs Flat Top
Posted By: Charlie175
Subject: Power Crater vs Flat Top
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 1:23pm
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I've see some discussion about flat top WD pistons giving more power to 226 engines than the Power Crater Pistons. Is it only because of the higher compression or was the Power Crater a bust? If Compression was it, then the 175 pistons should be top performers? I generally don't see these pistons in kits unless they are Allis Kits. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Replies:
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 1:25pm
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Only due to there flat top design......the power craters were good engines ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 1:32pm
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It comes from the compression increase when people install the flat top pistons for a 4" stroke in an engine with 4 1/2" stroke.
Piston design can help with a power increase but in this case it's from the increase in compression. The pistons are down in the bore to far from the head to have the piston top make the change. M&W used a vane in the piston head to help cause turbulance during compression stroke, probably the best designed piston.
Most of the aftermarket kits I have seen use a large concave dish in the piston and vary the compression for the engine by wrist pin placement. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 3:08pm
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well fall over Rod agrees with me on this about compression . no advantage from piston top design . if you run the compression ratio change for the percentage of increase in compression you see that larger bore change ups comp. ratio or cr being increased by piston compression height change is the real numerical measured increase in power ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 4:48pm
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I have Powercrater pistons from an AGCO 175 kit in my WC with a 4" crank and all WC components (carb, intake, etc). M&W dyno at Old Threshers put her at about 32 horse for what it's worth. My WD has WD45 powercrater pistons on a 45 crank and all 45 componets, made 50 on the same dyno the year before. Wanted to run them both this year, but didn't get the chance. AaronSEIA |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 9:02pm
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I used some genuine M&W pistons from a WD or WC in a Gleaner E engine. The M&W has about a 70cc bowl in them and a 2.94" compression height. I trimmed the piston tops for a .010 pop up over the block deck so with a compressed head gasket I get a quench. I had to trim some valve reliefs in and cut the bowl volume out to get the compression where I wanted. The engine really runs good for what it is. Dad got a few 2nd places this summer in classes of 22 and 25 tractors with lots bigger engines. I hope to put a decent cam in it this winter and dyno it. The power crater design is better than the flat top if both were used in identical engine combinations, comp ratios, etc. But I'd bet the measureable difference would be verry insignificant. Anything that can help cause a little turbulance and not kill flame travel helps. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 8:50am
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Wi have you had the head off that motor so you could see if there were any errosion of the piston top caused by the tight quench. We tightened a two stroke up it ran like a scoulded dog but when we tourn down for a freshening we saw our flat top had a slight dome from the errosion of the piston edge shaping its self to the cylinder fire ring creating a poor mans dome in the two cycle world. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 5:45pm
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I put some pictures of it on here a while back and you made some trick photography claim that they were bogus............you should rember. You tried to argue and cry for 2 weeks in a thread titled "compression" saying it wasn't possiable. Called Barney than changed your story. But if you guys can find a set of genuine M&W's for a WD that are in good shape they work great for building an easy quench engine. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 6:06pm
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That wasnt the question. The question was is your quench after running the same as it was or did the turbulance errode the piston top. I also have picture of turned down pistons that were heavily pulled and they broke after third season. Would have lasted longer if sit in the barn and only made two pulls a year. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 8:10pm
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The pictures I posted were taken after the engine had many hours on it. It gets used for odd jobs, moveing some grain, rakeing hay etc. Another case in which you're trying to argue about some subject that you already failed at. I even drive it to a few local pulls. With lightened governer weights and 38" tires the police speed sign in town said 28mph. Hundreds of thousands of automotive based engines have logged millions of hours with a quench design and not eroded. My old WD45 will likely run a verry long time also. Though it's not a quench engine the allis power craters help to stir things up on compression stroke. There's no evedence on tens of thousands of them of any excessive erosion. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 9:22pm
What's your point? Turned down pistons broke. Detonation kills. Another failure. M and W pistons are quite thick and have a huge dish to start with. Others are not so well suited. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
mlpankey wrote:Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 9:58pm
| We had a wc block with turned down m&w wc pistons and a 45 crank. Also had to grind in the bowl area to keep the valves from touching them. Worked fine for pulling but would always blow a head gasket plowing, one of the water ports on the gasket usually shifted. WC with 14.9-28 would pull 3-14 in any gear in just about any ground condition you could imagine easily. After 3 maybe 4 years of fun a tear down revealed broken ring lands on all the cylinders. Assumed detonation caused this, would probably still be running had the plow not been hooked to the drawbar, but it looked so good waxing them 2 cylinder deeres and 3020's!!! HaHa. Switched back to the flat tops on 45 crank not as much power but its very play toy reliable. Never did notice any erosion on top of the m&w pistons, if i find the old ones laying in the archives i could take pics and have the wife post them. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 11:48pm
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I bought a wd45 that was not running. When I pulled the engine apart I found flat top pistons in it with every ring land broken. It was a work tractor, my guess is someone unknowingly overhauled it with the wrong parts. The pistons were .380" down in the bore if I rember correctly. I'd have to measure a piston sometime and figure it, but that's way to much compression for cast pistons and low octane gas. I set my M&W's up to be 11.25 :1. I took right about .050 0ff the top to get the quench height. I think I trimmed the original 70cc bowl out to 88 or 90cc which didn't take that much other than take the little vane out of them, taper the sides and true up most of the bottom. Then with the valve relief machined in I think the total volume was something like 92cc. I buy a few gallons of 114 race gas and blend with a little 92 for it. It probably went to 6 or 8 pulls this summer, dad and my hired help take it out if there's time. I went to a couple with it a few times and try to find a kid to drive and let have some fun. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 6:44am
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when you get tight enough to see effects of quench the turbulance errodes the piston top only in the tightest area where your gaining quench . thats the point . sorry it went right over some of your heads. ps wi you remember saying a 226 crank cant be externally balanced since you want to bring up cans and cants. And if you dont have sufficient material above the ring lands then they break from compression not detonation just look at where the ring lands are on a turbo piston further down vs a naturally aspirated piston. Takes about a 1/8 to .150 inch down on a high comp. ratio naturally aspirated to keep lands from breaking. Also quench starts at .040 anything greater than .040 between piston top and quench pad of the head is considered to have no quench. David Vizzards newest book talks about ring placement and torque curve from it so its catching on . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 8:16am
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You're full of bs pank. You've got a different argument than you had last time on this subject. Had anyone other than Marty posted the same things you wouldn't give 2 hoots. It's easy to see how little you know. Ever look at an m&w and see where the top ring is located? Better yet show us. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 8:17am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
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Posted: Yesterday at 9:50amPosted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 8:59am
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We can't help it if you didn't adjust the timeing and had the wrong clearance on your 2 stroke. We can't help it if you use soft rods, weak pistons or poor design. All of your failures are a result of your own thoughts and actions. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 11:40am
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Rod timing issues show up on plugs in time to correct timming issues if read properly but I guess the ones who cant read plugs will always have detonation clouding the real issue. Quench starts at .040 and below .030 errodes the piston . performance will still pick up the smaller the number in quench gets. You can do the same though by reducing the chamber by milling or a dome and having no quench and no errosion . I know its hard for you to understand but it is what it is. Yes when you build your own stuff you have no one to blame for the lessons learned. They are alot easier to swallow when they are of your own doing than when they are of someone you paid good money to . What I have learned I learned by doing. So if you have not experienced it or read about it in a book as of yet and dont want my advice dont take it. The best lesson are learned the hard way. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 3:46pm
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A compressed head gasket is .052". With the .010" piston protrusion that engine is right on the money. We are not talking about domes or chambered heads. Time for pank to try and fool someone else. His contradicting arguments go round and round. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 3:50pm
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Feelpro gasket is. 045 straight off the shelf. Victor renz want hold the compression maybe rod should try again. Actually think its. 042 but whats .003 assuming the block has been decked and rod thermal growth has been acounted for. Rods calcs would bte off no more than. 010 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 5:14pm
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Posting different numbers now than other times. Getting caught lying quite often. A compressed fel pro is .045". But with your measureing and math skills it's no suprise that you can't give an honest answer. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 6:13pm
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Rod you took the stand that steel grows more than cast iron if i remember correctly so unless you want to be hypocritical . your stance would be that it would be tighter running than the quench measured cold. Awaiting your next responce ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 8:16pm
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The expansion rate of steel is more than that of iron. Aluminum expands more than steel. Pistons don't erode from being in a well designed quench engine and valve lash tightens slightly when the engine warms up. No matter what pankey thinks all these things are prove facts. I think of all the race engines built to run on tight quench. If pankey was right the clearance would increase as the engine warms up. We all know it decreases and good builders target a tight quench. At least pank can now admit he was wrong and valve lash tightens with heat. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 9:50pm
| I have found that when the compression is raised up in that 11 to 1 or more ratio, the ignition timing needs to be backed down even with racing gas. 25 degrees BTDC (stock) at full throttle has to be set to less than 20 degrees BTDC and I have one of my current engines (13 to 1) at 12 degrees BTDC to make the most HP at 2000 rpm. Running timing at 25 BTDC with high compression will in time surely destroy things even with racing gas. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2012 at 4:41am
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Yep doc it takes verry little timing when high static ratio are involved rod ithe am glad that you now see wi quench running is less than his cold measurement. So yours and his calculation would be off no more than. 010 one would have to make a hot oil bath and measure the rods center to center after thermal growth and have that number equated in like race engine builders do with a little fudge factor for rpm stretch. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2012 at 5:20am
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You are an absolute idiot pankey. Absolutly no where did anyone includeing Marty or I say anything about measurements changeing for heat and speed. It's common knowledge that they do. At least you can finally admit to being wrong before in claiming that valve lash loosens with heat when in fact it does just the oppisite. We have established that race builders leave some clearance to quench tightens as the engine speeds uo and warms up. We read how Marty machined the pistons to have a .010" deck protrusion. Please point out where he states anything about how thick his head gasket is? Again, you're acting a fool pointing fingers trying to make someone look bad when the reality is you don't know anything. So please adress my questions from above as to why you would lie to us about the thicknes of a head gasket? Those are different numbers than posted before and different than actual measurements. Pistons don't erode from quench but pankey lies, gets caught and skates around again. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2012 at 6:44am
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connecting rod grows more than the pushrods do . wi said it was .010 out of the hole . pistons errode from to tight of quench. Have marty since he states he uses a cam grinder in denver nc to ask mr. jones about the valve lash issue . He was the one that brought it to my attention that lash increases hot instead of decreases and it got about the same responce when brought to my attention as it did when i brought it to somes attention on this site. Yes your mad that you didnt figure thermal growth of the connecting rod in the above and i pointed it out . So once more you combat it with name calling as usual butting in on a question that was directed to your boyfriend and not you in the first place . It was a simplistic question if answered we would have known if he hit the sweet spot or missed it by what he observed on the piston top. He didnt so around the world I went with you . Oh if you and marty arent the same person rod dont try to act like you know people in the same circle as I you proved that was just a fake try by the rawlings move instead of his correct last name rawls. However feel free to keep reading my post your knowledge is coming along fine with every read post even if you miss up the names somewhat in a futile attempt to discredit . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2012 at 9:09am
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you two are downright creepy. I seen Rod once at a GOTO and never seen Pankey that I know of. Maybe they have more in common than they let on.... It's no wonder neither of you two have time to work on any engines or go to any events. They make pills for these kind of of things. I like women with low IQ, large breasts and low self esteam, I do not like guys with the same qualities. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2012 at 10:15am
I don't think low self esteem is an issue here! don't know about the breasts........ LOL ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: cwhit
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 7:11am
| Wow... I did'nt see this coming. |
Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 9:48am
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I Like boobies also !! Even muddy boobies!! But once again some guys need to argue too much. ( gay) (creepy) just not cool . Need a pulling tractor naked girl calendar to all in check here ------------- Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 11:28am
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Yeah if i was wi and fellow was showing up where i was i would be concerned. He difinately has a man crush on him. Reminds me of a redneck that thinks everyones insulting his girl. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 12:02pm
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Don't think you can read well pank. My post was in favor of Wi50 also my intentions not aiming at Rod either. Just don't get why you intend on putting people down ?? Some of the stuff you say is good Pank but not consistent ! Lets face it readers or any followers are more acceptable to watching or learning from consistency than a one time winner. As fellow pullers sharing information is valuable to the young crowd. Where else will we find competion in near future? The moderator needs an apology! My calendar joke was to break the ice and talk about something else. Or we just need a cool pulling calendar and apply the funds to a good cause. Done with this gonna read the classifieds need parts . ------------- Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 1:39pm
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Wild bill when people but in on a conversation then sometimes it gets agitated into something that it really didnt start out as. As for consitant it may not be. You simply dont build all engines the same way. Sometimes you do a little work and the engine is a ovee overachiever sometimes a bear is a teard. You have to have a plan with no plan nothing changes and it is what it is. I posted part numbers and phone numbers on the valve size so rhat i put something on the site specific and not generic like some do. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 2:00pm
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Does anyone suppose if anyone else had posted the same information that I did, there would be such a problem? I'd bet if I posted that I had flat top pistons in one, then we could hear about how it's more prone to detonation than some other combo.
For anyone who cares, the engine I'm working on for our super stock is a quench design also. After 10 to 20 runs as the rods streach the piston tops are clean where they meet the head. It's that tight of a quench. It's a tad over 7 to 1 compression but with the boost pressure and figureing some for thermal inefficiency it's over 40 to 1 compression ratio. With the fuel rate, there's right close to .2oz of fuel in the cylinder every time under full power. 505 cid and about 6hp per cid.
There's lots and lots of these engines running in grand national caliber tractors, I've seen pistons pull the rings off if to tight, but none have ever eroded from quench. Various chunks of clay, valvetrain parts, turbocharger parts cause problems, but the quench does not. Our real enemy is timeing, and rod bolts and berrings.
Maybe pankey should go down to GMS, Blackburn, Long Machine, etc and other shops that sell these parts weather it be IH, JD, Ford based engines, and tell them how to build their parts.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 2:15pm
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Quench is a subject of debate in engine shops as much as rod length is the for anyone who is in the know or just hangs out in a speed shop.the problem with the site is you cant debate for children and feelings. You can find debates on quench and its problems on any automotive forum or two cycle bike or hotsaw forum. Keyboard comandos rev yiur search engines ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 8:44pm
A Fel Pro is .061" off the shelf and a victor is .063". Compressed Fel Pro is .052" ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 8:47pm
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I never had a felpro blue gasket that thick.started ordering .042 thick from clark based off felpro measurements. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 8:56pm
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This whole time you tried to argue about something you didn't know, or used inaccurate measurements. The gaskets have been that thick for as long as I have used them. 25+ years. Glad I could help once again. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 9:02pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 9:13pm
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I may be off of someone elses measurents by .001" or .002", you're off by .020". Go buy a gasket and see for yourself. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 5:33am
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Rod what is the squish velocity of Marty's engine utilizing the M&W pistons 10 thousandths above the deck? ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 6:49pm
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Without knowing other factors neither you or I can calculate that. Do not worry about his squish velocity, work on your measureing skills or at least tell the forum you lied or made an honest mistake. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 7:23pm
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They must have changed the gasket thickness .its been a few years since i purchased a felpro. Still have that one hanging in garage. I figured with your intimate knowledge of wi s builds you would know the factors to calculate maximum squish velockty to see if its in a destructive or hindering turbulant velocity. Most usually know that a wider squish band is better on low rpm applications and that narrow squish bands well usually work better at 12000trpm but bike manufacturers spend alot on r @d cause it can get detrimental as well. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: bobkyllo
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 8:38pm
| has anyone else lost track of the originall conversation? i am so confused by all this back and forth bickering. i would have to assume that the guy building his motor for pulling should know what his tolerances and thickness's are. i would also come to conclude that if you are going to build a fairly peppy motor such as a pulling motor that you probably should not be some complete idiot and not know what you are doing. |
Posted By: bobkyllo
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2012 at 8:46pm
you right off that bat pank are wrong. you said that rod and you agree but in reality you do not agree. he said that you see an increase due to the change in piston design. you said and i quote "no advantage from piston top design."
also the original question was asking about if you get more compression from power crater versus flat top. you took it upon your self to redesign his whole damn motor.
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2012 at 4:36am
Power crater pistons have more crevice volume making them ineffecient and flames are seen out the exhaust from the trapped unburned fuel. What I agreed with rod on his power comes from the compression increase and not squish . What i posted in another post to keep from getting to far from topic is that the squish from a mailto:m@w" rel="nofollow - m@w piston has no kinetic energy and once the secondary squish pressure wave happens its done cause it has no kinetic energy to keep charge turbulent through the complete combustion cycle.
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
