Need cam and carb help
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Topic: Need cam and carb help
Posted By: mufflerboltz
Subject: Need cam and carb help
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 7:21pm
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Just wanting to know if there is any stock cam, like out of a d17 or something, that would be a better cam to run in a wd45? Also would reworking a Marvel or Zenith be a good set up or should i look for something else? Then last but not least, what damn pistons should i run? one minute someone tells me wc flat tops then the next time its wd flat tops! Help and input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:07pm
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I should have some ground cams for these things from Mike Jones cam designs. I'll have to look and see what's left, I just don't rember right now. A late model cam from a gleaner E or late D-17 work well when degreed in correctly. But check your oil pump drive and make sute the tooth count is the same or you'll wreck it. But you'll be better off with a ground cam. I've seen several different grinds work well and a little of it depends on what master lobes the cam grinder has. A little tighter lobe seperation helps these engines out also. WD and WC pistons are the same. Get the valve bowls opened up and some decent angles cut on the valves and seats. Get the corners and floor of the port rounded off and same thing with the manifold. I usually try and keep some valve sets on hand to install a little larger valve. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mufflerboltz
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:14pm
| thats the kinda info i was looking for! thanks! if you do have a cam let me know if you want to get rid of it and how much |
Posted By: mufflerboltz
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 9:30pm
| which is the better carb to have, the Marvel or Zenith? and how much work should i do to one? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2012 at 4:19pm
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The largest one that will still suck the fleshy part of your palm up at cranking speed. If its frosting up running then its still not big enough. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 7:32am
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I hate to agravate the armchair expert but just how fleshy is the fleshy part of your hand? How would you know how fleshy mufflefboltz hands are? I would tend to say that venturi size has more to do with how signal is recognized than weather the carb is frosting up or not. Atmosperic conditions vary of course. Put a vac gauge in the intake manifold and see what it reads at wide open throttle under full load. This reading will be a good starting point. Opinions vary on how much vac is needed but 5 to 7 inches on an updraft isn't to much A carb a little to small is better than one a little to large, with to large of a venturi signal gets weak, the engine will run well but will lack the ability to make peak torque. There's good carbuerator people out there who can help find the right one. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 6:20pm
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Its all about the size of the venturi that causes the frost.simple bigger carbs naturally have bigger venturi. Thats why jacks 350 inch engines from kentucky and Barney 392 inch engines run the moline g carb. Moline g icarb is good for 403a cubes at low rpms. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 7:18pm
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Wheres rod is he looking into adiabtic expansion? Or would tbat be given him to much credit in the intelligence department. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 7:58pm
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Well i was watching this post through the active user and see ole rod had read it but had no reply before going offline status. I guess i had given him to much credit in the intellegence department. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:01pm
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It took 4 days foe you to copy my post about venturi size. But venturi size isn't everythung. Compare carbs with the same venturi but different work done and you will get 2 different flow rateings. When possiable I hook a second vertical manometer th the main jet to measure booster signal. When properly sized 8.2" h20 at the main jet gives me a 12.2:1 air fuel ratio. I can size the venturi and tune the air fuel settings real close before running the engine. Maybe I'll see you down in Gordyville. Bring your best. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:13pm
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Why reinvent the wheel when you have so many carb sizes you can find the right one and spend time in the easy chair. I havent seen a post on adiabtic expansion rate and how to small a venturi can cause frosting at any weather candition from you maybe you could make a link for it or is it just my post you like to keep available for readers. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:32pm
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People who don't know anything about a subject post links. Those who know can post information from their own mind. You are not impressing anyone, only adding to your poor reputation. Do something to impress us. I'm not bickering guys, I added some information relative to selecting the right carb that I hope will help some. Ig mufflerboltz wants some easy figureing he can figure his engine size ,ultiply by srpm and divide by 3456 for a starting place in selecting the right carb. 226 x 1500 / 3456 = 98 cfm 240 x 1700 / 3456 = 118 cfm Useing the rpm range where the engine is working, he could do a few mods to a tsx 464 carb and have all that he needs. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 8:54pm
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I am a bit of a pessimist when it comes to pulling carburator specialist who want to reshape a venturi and dont know adiabtic expansion. I have seen those they advertise in hook magazine and when the sucker i mean customer has complaints about their work its always well your engine demand isnt what you described. You can put a stock venturi back and it will run better then you can put a carb three sizes bigger that still pulls enougjh vacuum at cranking speed to hold your hand against it and it will run even better. Alot of snake oil salesman in antique pulling market. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 9:17pm
Uh, Mitch, I ain't lookin to get involved, or take sides, but the temp and relative humidity have a very large influence on the frosting up of a carb, enough so that I would suspect that "frosting" would be a very poor indicator of proper carb size. JMHO ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
mlpankey wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2012 at 9:40pm
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You can andjl will see some frosted in 100 degree southern summer pulling. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 7:47am
yet that same tractor, w/o any changes will not frost on a 100 degree Tuscon morning, so your rule of thumb is useless ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 8:26am
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I ran my 4 mph puller the other day moveing some corn around the dryer setup and it frosted up in November in north western Wisconsin. Funny thing is that it frosts up in May, June, July, August and September also. If I put my hand against it it will suck on my hand also, as long as the engine is turning over and the valves are moveing. I met a friend of mine Scott, in town to flow test some carbuerators. All updraft Marvel's for antique pulling application purposes. 3 carbs of the same core to start with. 1 stock rebuild, 1 with some modifications to the bowl and a thinned throttle shaft, and the third one with lots of bowl modifications to enhance flow, a custom venturi, bored neck and a custom throttle plate. We tested the carbs, swapped parts around, tried this and that and made up about every combination of work and parts to see what work is worth doing and what is a waste of time. We spent hours testing his carbs and checking for little things like where a littel airfoil made helps and where it hurts. What a different venturi that blends itself into the bowl can do, how much difference can the same venturi effect flow depending on other modifications done around it. We tested at 1.5"hg, 3"hg, and at 28" water for refrence to see what variations showed up at different test pressures. What we learnes isn't mine to share. It's his. I'm sorry I can't share it but he's the one who worked hard to get it. The flow bench doesn't lie, it only tells what makes a difference and what doesn't. It doesn't care how hard you work, and will tell what work is useless. Speaking of the Moline G type carbs though I've tested some at 120 cfm and I've tested them right near 200 cfm. It's all in the work done to them. But it takes more than frosty minds and chubby hands to do the work.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 1:14pm
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Most of the carb complaints of being to big are at idle and transition off idle. Restricting idle circuit is less time consuming than working over a venturi building throttle plates etc. You even said in your post it took a lot of time. Your right small venturis cause frosting no matter the month. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 1:39pm
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Idle circut needs to be opened up, not restricted. Experience is your friend when posting. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 5:45pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 7:49pm
Heres some pics of the intake and header we built last summer. It's in a WC unstyled, not really sure of the power gain or losses from oe style manifold and carb. both carbs are from a wd. Intake runners are 19.5 inches long and designed to accomodate the larger marvel carb if more airflow is needed in the future. 3/8 plate bolted to the head, ordered a build it yourself sb chevy header kit from summit plus a few extra bent pipes and used some pieces left over from a custom header build job on my racing ranger.
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Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 7:56pm
| Sorry that the pics are so obnoxiously large; new to adding pictures to posts. |
Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 8:03pm
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Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 8:05pm
 
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 5:34am
| What organization? or what class?? Open RPM's? or governor control?? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 6:55am
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2 is always better than one . lets you tune air/fuel for a pair of cylinders instead of four . Have you noticed no 3 not running as lean with the pair as it does typicaly with a single? kinda got a crhrysler cross ram look or chevy dz302 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 9:08am
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well that's neat D21puller.
I left something out of my first post in this thread to see what would happen. So now our resident experts will think of this and start agreeing with me and post more to feel important. So far no one has mentioned one of the most basic modifications for Mufflerboltz's cam and carb help.
A set of high ratio rocker arms will trick your engine into thinking your cam is a little bigger than it actually is.... sort of anyway. A little more advanced, and retarded valve action because of the incerase in ratio and also a little faster valve action which is in general a good thing. $400 and a call to Murphys Motor Service buys a set.
But if you are on the cheap and handy, like doing things yourself. IH 6 cyl diesel engines like the 806-1206 tractors IH 361 and 407 engines have a rocker arm that is really close to the Allis one. The Allis is a 1.45 ratio and the IH is 1.65 ratio. All give or take depending on how far off they are from the next one you measure.
I've put the IH ones on an Allis years ago. I'm sorry if I don't rember exactly what I had to do though, weather it was hone the rockers a couple thou or hone the Allis stands and use the IH shaft. I know I slotted the push rod holes in the head. It was a verry long time ago. After I broke enough at high RPM I made a billet setup back in the day.
I might just have some IH ones in my pail of rocker arms if it intrests you mufflerboltz, they're free if they're here. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: D21Puller
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2012 at 6:27pm
| Dr. Allis we do not pull with any organization, between work and life in general I rarely have the time to make the drive and compete with any of the clubs in our area. We may attend some of the closer to home brush-fair pulls a year and some fun pulls at tractor shows. The governor does control the speed at around 2200, i would like to speed things up but need to spend some money on a steel flywheel and beef up the bottom end first. Most of the time i try to get in a mph class under 5000 or if a open class was available for under 4500. We have a barney cam to install but have not done so yet, maybe this winter if i dont spend all my free time working on others projects. Figured the long runners would help with torque besides the factory manifold design looks hideous from a airflow standpoint. The individual pipes merge into a 3" collector, we put a 5" pipe over the outside just to keep people from being nosy. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 6:51am
Not to kick dead horses but I've had a lingering questiin. Why would you post this? Is it to elevate your internet stalker status to something higher like a "serial stalker"???? Or simply from arrogance and ignorance? Please don't reply we really don't need to know the answer as....... I'm just pokeing fun so others have something to laugh at this fine morning. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mufflerboltz
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 12:51pm
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to be honest i cant even stand to read post from my own subject cuz it always goes back to these two bickering on the same topic they bickered about dozen of times! All im asking for is help and advise on how to make my tractor more competitive for next year! im not looking to stick thousands of dollars into it, all i want is to be around 60 hp! I do appreciate the advise from some of you, and you know who you are, but please stop the nonsense, I just stupid reading it! So on to better subjects, yes wi50 i'd be interested in the rockers if there is an advantage to them, i do plan on running a better engine kit instead of the original internals i already have. i am also going to do a little port work and vale cutting. as far as a carb i learned alot about flow in different sizes where bigger is not always better! Now im on the search for a good cam!
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Posted By: mufflerboltz
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 1:03pm
One last thing i forgot to mention, if i wanted to listen to an argument i would call my ex-wife and deal with her, but then again she would make more sense then all this nonsense in the end!  Have a Good Day All
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Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 1:13pm
| A little bit of advise is to put off the camshaft purchase until you have settled upon the rest of your build for next year. There are some pretty smart cookies in the cam business but they are only as smart as the info you give them. Every bit as important as the correct grind is timing, some good info has been posted about that but ask the grinder too. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2012 at 1:33pm
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I try to keep some cams on hand, but it's hard to do as there's the drive gear difference, keyed or flanged.
Then there's the oil pump drive gear, 11 or 14 tooth.
That makes for 3 core cams to start with. Then the limetless combinations of other factors in the engine. So for a guy to have cams on hand and supply, it takes a good "all around" grind. It's never perfect for the application, but it's not to far off. Lobe shape is just as important as any of the "magic numbers" for the grind. If 2 cams from different master patterns have the same duration and lobe seperation numbers there's still a difference.
When I port a cylinder head, I cut holes in the top of the head on each side of the intake port between the head bolt studs and intake valve guides if you can picture. Then I blast the heads clean inside and out and grind the casting flashing off around the intake port and valve bowls.
Now with the access holes I cut in top of the head and the water port through the top and bottom of the head, I can get that whole area clean and fill the area with a special filler I buy. The exhaust ports are not a bad shape or size to start with, but the intakes in these things SUCK! So I cut the sides of the port into a nice long sweeping radius into the valve bowl. I roll the floor and short side radius off also. Being filled, I don't have to worry about leaking water and depending on the application, sometimes I cut way into the filler through the port.
The port gets verry wide inside, to wide and you end up with a dead spot. I drill a hole in the back of the port wall into the head bolt hole directly behind it and tap it. I then can put a screw in it for an anchor point and build a divider around it tapering out twards the manifold face of the head paying attention to keep the port volume correct for the engine application.
When I'm done I have a split port head for the most part. With the original T shaped port, there is no way to get much air around the corner to one intake bowl or the other. At that corner the flow becomes detached and makes a mess out of the flow pattern.
I'll share a picture of what I'm talking about as far as the split in the port. The picture is not of an Allis head, but none the less it's a visual. It's made in modeling board and is a prototype for another project I will not talk about.
 ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 3:48pm
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Since the time of flow benches you get lump ports w ports and vane type ports and on a dry bench the increase in flow numbers from this can really show up. Wi said it can become detached makes me wonder if he has upgraded to wet flow technology without it the only realistic test is a tear down after engine has run to see where the carbon areas are in relation to the intake valve to know where fuel/air mixture has become unsuspended back to fuel and air . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 8:52pm
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We're lucky that Marty is willing to share what it takes. I rember him posting how he made a lump port head similar to the inline chevy when pankey was crying that it was impossiable. Those of us with experience know the first indicator of problems in a port is the sound that it makes. Something as simple as a piece of string can be verry usefull finding problem areas. Posting old pictures of a tractor and skateing around the truth when asked where we can see it run in person is a bit like old men putting high school pictures on dateing sites now isn't it pank. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 6:37am
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i never said it was impossible . i said the same as i did above this time as well. sometimes a increase in dry flow can be a hinderence in wet flow. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 11:16am
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There was nothing said about any wet flow. But you offered $200 to see what he explains for free. Search the archives on ytmag for yourself. Anyone with basic porting knowledge knows that air does not like to turn corners. The AC head has 2 sharp corners. The air WILL become detached. No wet flow adapter needed, common sense prevails here. Eliminate the corners and it's possiable to meet the flow potential of the valve. Usually the allis head is at the end of it's flow potential by .400" lift. I'd bet by re-shapeing the port like in the picture and paying attention to valve aproach and seat angles there's a lot of potential power hideing. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 7:08pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 8:46pm
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With that kind of math a bone stock 226 would make about 150 hp. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 7:31am
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No cause a bone stock head cant flow half the cfm number wi boasts.you know his indy head came with flow numbers that indy provides and they are repeatable in wi and in tn. The deal wwas if wi cfm numbers were not stretched when i tested i would send him his head and 200. If his numbers were untruthful wi would have to pay me for my time testing to get his head back. To date no head from wi has been shipped to shop for testing.so one can only assume that numbers where inflated. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 9:52am
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In another thread you admitted to paying Dan Rawlings $100 to flow test for you. $20 do do it and $80 do put up with you is what Dan claims. Why consistantly lie to us? No wonder Marty doesn't trust you enough to take your money. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:04pm
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Dan Rawls can do it if Wi is scared and wanted a non tractor bias person to run the test. As for Dan Rawlings the only Rawlings I am familuar with makes footballs and baseballs. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 2:48pm
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You can admit that you don't have any way to flow test. You can't even tell us what a sharp edged orfice plate with a 1.28" diameter hole or 1sq in area would flow when calibrateing. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 3:35pm
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1.874 plate with a .61 corection factor around 248cfm i choose this number for a reason care to guess why. We are still under muflerboltz 226 pulling build post ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 5:50pm
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Can I get you 2 a room? Neither one of you know anything other than any easy answers from google or whatever search engine your puter uses. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 5:56pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: ykfdf
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2013 at 8:18am
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thats the kinda info i was looking for! thanks! if you do have a cam let me know if you want to get rid of it and how much
------------- http://www.mmoggg.de/" rel="nofollow - WoW gold | http://www.mmoggg.de/Diablo-3-gold/" rel="nofollow - Diablo 3 Gold http//www.mmoggg.de/" rel="nofollow - WoW Gold Kaufen |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2013 at 1:47pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |