Emergency Home Generator
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Topic: Emergency Home Generator
Posted By: Phil N
Subject: Emergency Home Generator
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 7:48am
| I've been looking into buying a generator for home use in power outages. I'm looking at the 5KW to 7KW range with enough power to run my well pump, oil burner, kitchen refrig, and a couple of lights in the house. There seems to be all kinds of stuff out there with prices from about $700-$1700 new. There also seems to be tons of used ones out there also. What do some of you suggest? Whats is desirable and what to stay away from? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. |
Replies:
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 8:09am
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Stay away from big box stores.
I have a Honda, 4200 I believe. I think it's under rated. I run 2 frigs, a freezer, and the rest of the house, TV, PC's etc. I don't run anything with coils, Dryer, water heater, stove or oven. It also runs the propane furnace, and well pump.
I have been running it for a few years now and have never had a problem. Came with electric start, Just hook my jumper box to it and away we go.
My first was a Coleman from Home Depot, threw a rod right thru the side of the block. ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 8:19am
|
I just asked that same question to a guy I know who is an electrician. I'd say you're probably right on size wise. I have a portable that I use here that's 6K surge 5K continuous. I'm thinking of upgrading to a hardwired unit that starts automatically and runs on LP. LP costs less than gas and doesn't go bad and clog the carb. They're a little pricey to buy and install, but no custom cords or other non compliant "procedures". ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 8:46am
| Portable generators is one of those places where you get what you pay for. I'd stay away from the ones in the big box stores that are priced under $2000. I have a Honda 3000si that is absolutely tops. I also have a PTO unit for the farm that will run everything that I need to run. The generator will be the least expensive part of your installation if you do it properly. Call your favorite electrician and your power company and get the requirements and cost to set up your generator, you will be glad you did. |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 9:00am
|
I've got a 7000watt 12500watt surge with electric start. Genrac brand 11hp B&S. Keep the gas tank dry and you won't have any carb problems. I pull mine out one time a year and put a quart of gas it in then let it run until it's out of gas then change the oil and put it back in storage. If you get an electric start make sure the battery has a trickle charger on it as you don't want a dead battery when it's time to use it for real. Get the biggest tank for it you can find. Mine has 8 gallons and will run 12 hours on a tank. Keep 15 gallons of gas on hand at all times either in a tractor or in cans. I keep three five gallon cans full and use it for the mowers to keep it cycled through and fresh. I've had mine for 10 years and needed it three times for a few days each. If you are going to use it for long periods very often then maybe go for a high dollar one with a Honda engine but for occasional use like mine a $1000 unit is just fine IMHO.
For load mine will run two full size refrigerators, all the lights, microwave, furnace, ceiling fans, TV's and hot water heater. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 9:05am
| I dont think there is a fits all answer. Capacity = comfort but also = fuel usage. How long you can afford to be comfortable and what exactly is "comfort" varies with all of us. A diesel prime mover helps in that the fuel uasge will be more in line with actual wattage consumed as compared to similar sized gasoline of LP engines. In other words with a diesel you can up size for comfort during the day and not pay as stiff a penalty in fuel usage when it runs all night doing little. The downside to diesel is up front cost. Fuel storage and life is also a concern, LP or natural gas wins here hands down, diesel second, gasoline dead last by a mile. We have two diesel units, both home built. A fuel sipping 3KW continuous 5KW surge and a 12/15 for when we want to be comfortable. They suit our needs and budget well. |
Posted By: BobHnwO
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 9:54am
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I would go with a Generac outside unit,hook to propane tank,transfer switch,all automatic,10,000 watt about $2800.
------------- Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow. |
Posted By: Rich Steiner
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 10:27am
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I agree with Bob. I have been an Electrican for 40 years and I suggest not to go under 8kw The 10 kw is about right for an average home. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 10:29am
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I have a 50s vintage Onan with a Continental Y-91 engine (21 hp). This week I'm working on getting it set on a platform with casters so I can move it around in the shed for easier maintenance but can move it to take up less space when not used. I've had it more than 30 years. I replaced the mechanical gas pump with an electric for much easier starting on gasoline. Its a dual fuel, will run on propane, natural gas, or gasoline, even coal gas. The engine is way over sized so it will run full load on coal gas of poor quality. It came from the county hospital and the inside was as clean as the pictures in the manual from running on natural gas some 30 years. I have modified the carburetor a bit, it had a fixed high speed jet and would burn a couple gallons gasoline per hour even at no load. I dropped a thermocouple down the exhaust pipe after making an adjustable high speed jet and leaned to raise the exhaust temperature about 450 F and now it gets along at just over 1/2 gallon per hour. Its 120 only, so the electric stove and the dryer didn't work where I last used it. And I unplugged the hot water heater. Then it ran furnace, water pump, and lights. While its good for continuous service and I have run it 24 hours for ham radio Field Day, my procedure was to run it and the furnace with the the furnace thermostat set for 80 F. When the furnace caught up with the thermostat, I shut down the generator, and went to a kerosene lamp (Alladin) for reading or went to bed. When the house got down to 40 F, I cranked up the generator and repeated the cycle. Wasn't as comfortable as having line power, but extended the fuel on hand. I did gather the materials to plumb it to propane but haven't yet accomplished that and by all rules need a couple new regulators to make that safe. The new place is much better insulated and in the two years I've owned it, few power outages have been long while I was home. It can go hours without too great a temperature drop, but came with a built in transfer switch and underground cable to the shed. I also have a Honda 2000 which is quite portable that I have used on occasion as a "gasoline" extension cord for using power tools around the yard and I have made up a cable that will connect it to the transfer switch cable if I need it. Keeping fuel on hand is vital to the benefits of the standby generator and its important to rotate gasoline. Often when the outage is extended its over a large area and the roads are drifted with snow so even if I could drive, the nearby stations don't have power to pump gas. Propane would be very handy in that situation. Over the last 41 years that I've lived outside towns, the quality of rural power in Iowa has improved considerably. There are more substations and so they expose fewer miles of distribution to failure when a tree limb takes down the power and those substations gradually got closer to the house accompanying urban sprawl. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 10:37am
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That stuff about the big box stores under 2000.00 is a crock.
I have 6000w with a Briggs from home depot on sale from 879.00 down to 549.00. I told my neighbor about the price and he bought one also. Both are 8 years old, run many times a year sometimes for days on end and they are still both running fine. I had to get a new carburetor. Old one is plugged inside and I can not get it cleaned out. Teach me to remove the fuel filter and run it before I put a new one back on. If I was going to buy another one it would be this one. http://www.peakpowertools.com/Portable-Generator-Peak-8000-Watt-Generator-p/gpp8000.htm ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 10:46am
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Why is this in the Farm Equipment:
Everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment forum. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 11:12am
|
As posted above about keeping the carburetor dry is ok unless moist air get's in it.
It will then oxidize the aluminum and form a white powder. This powder will cause you alot of problems inside the carburetor. The needle valve will seem likes it's welded in and you will have to remove it with pliers with some effort. The best way to prevent this if you want to store with a dry carburetor is first remove the bowl and make sure there isn't any water in the bottom of it. Cover the intake and exhaust with platic wrap and then with aluminum foil to try to keep moist air out. Do this on a cold engine. If the engine is warm from running you could trap moisture inside it. I have seen many carburetors that were stored dry a white powdery mess inside of them along with rust on the bottom of the bowl and any other metal parts just from moist air getting in. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 12:47pm
| After each outage, my wife is in the mood to get a backup generator. I will need at least 8KW because we have to pump water. Am trying to leverage it into a Combo Welder-Generator. Nice thing is it will get a lot of use and not be "stale" when the outage comes. |
Posted By: wekracer
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 3:20pm
| Miller bobcat welder. 10kw with 12.5 surge. Works good for building sucker rod fence too. that keeps the gas fresh. |
Posted By: thomas davison
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 3:39pm
| I have a Generec 10000 natural gas. I believe this is the way to go. It is automatic and exercises itselft each week for 12 minutes. Built in battery charger. Cost is about 3000 plus plumbing for gas (or propane) and electric work. About 4000 when all done, but if you look at any other, with any kind of auto hookup, plus if a gas engine, you have to keep a lot of gasoline around, the Generec looks the best to me. If you are older, as I am, I can not go outside when it is cold and wrestle a generator around, and be sure I have enough galoline. Auto switchover is needed to be sure that you do not have a hookup that is illegal and may electrocute a lineman. |
Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 3:41pm
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I bought one of these during Hurricane Irene. Chinese Honda clone. It is not bad, starts easily and has plenty of power. Only downside so far is that it is loud. |
Posted By: omahagreg
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 5:01pm
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My Honda 2500 (yes it is small) specifically said the warranty was no good if you stored it WITHOUT gas in the carb! So, I buy 5 gallons at a time, mix in some Stable, and store it tank full! ------------- Greg Kroeker 1950 WD with wide front and Freeman trip loader |
Posted By: Russ SCPA
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 6:04pm
|
50 KW on a 7020,
16 KW on a 175 AC,
We have dual power service set up here, well is on the grain system's service, house is on seperate service,
I would not want any less than 10 KW for a house, and if you have a heat pump or electric heat that will not be enough.
|
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 7:43pm
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I bought a 13kw pto generator to run my house, deep well, geo-thermal unit portable welder and so on. I can run my whole house with my CA. Now that I have it, I hope I dont need it.
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2011 at 7:54pm
|
As someone said there a lot of variables. Stand by auto start up to drag it out start it up and hook it up. If you would be happy with drag out and hook up, you could have a generator only, no power unit, and run it with your favorite Orange Tractor. If you run it with a tractor with many more horses than needed you can belt/gear it so the tractor engine does not need to turn full RPMs, burn less fuel. Also engine is being used regularly and ready to go, no stale gas, dead mag, dead battery. Just be sure you use a transfer switch. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 3:26am
| i have a 90,000 watt Kohler for sale!! |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 7:55am
|
Shameless, the way your luck is going you better hold on to that... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 8:27am
|
90,000??? ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 8:35am
|
From John MI
Stay away from big box stores. My first was a Coleman from Home Depot, threw a rod right thru the side of the block. From what I get out of what you are saying is that if you bought it from a generator dealer it would still be running but since you bought it from Home Depot it was junk. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 8:41am
|
Good to know.
I'll be watching for the rod to fly out of the Briggs engine on my generator I bought at Home Depot. Nobody in the state could touch their price. Campbell Hausfeld 6000w with a 10hp Briggs. Sticker $879.00 Sale Price $549.00 ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 8:48am
| I get double duty from mine. It is a 10kw generator/gasoline powered welder by Thermalarc, it is a Predator series and I can backfeed through a conventional welding outlet for up to 50amps service flow. |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 9:00am
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That will do it. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 9:21am
Phil N, Don't mess around with those little generators.
 ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 9:59am
Not legally! Guys working on power lines have gotten killed by people doing this and forgetting to disconnect the main breaker. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
DMiller wrote:Posted By: Rawleigh
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 11:41am
|
Sorry I left out my link from my previous post: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419025_200419025 - http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419025_200419025 |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 12:13pm
My next door neighbor had this set up before he passed. His daughter wanted me to backfeed into the house with his generator during our last power outage using a male twist lock 30 amp cord dangeling out of an outside electrical panel. I told her that I didn't know for sure how he did it and told her to use extension cords as I did not want to be responsible for the outcome. She used the extension cords I had for her. It's one thing to know what your doing and yes I'll backfeed my own panel but you have to know what your doing. I won't do it on anyone elses home. Not worth the risk that they have more than two active brain cells. Yes it's very illegal for good reason. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 1:17pm
| Jeffy...that pic you posted looks alot like my 90,000 watt'er |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 2:07pm
|
OOOOK!!!! ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 10:07pm
| Most of the cheap stuff sold by the big box stores is made "just for them" and of a lower quality just so it can be sold at a low price. Very few items are of the same quality as those sold by a hardware store or lawnmower shop. They asked Karchner to make a pressure washer for them. They had to sell for $99.00. Karchner had so many problems with those units that it hurt their reputation. They refused to renew the contract. Bob |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2011 at 10:28pm
|
tucker, I work for a utility, I have a welder outlet from a separate panel fed from the main and do kill the main while dropping the neutral so the backfeed does not get on the lines. I set it up with minimal loads, necessary loads in the add on panel and not affect the welder with too much load. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 1:06am
|
Choosing an emergency power system includes many variables- here's a few: -Peak load capacity (starting big motors, running resistive loads like electric water heaters, dryers, lots of lighting, etc) -Fuel consumption curve (some are very thrifty at low power, but generally speaking, a larger generator's BASE FUEL CONSUMPTION is higher than a small unit). -Fuel availability, storage, and turnover (as noted above, gasoline and diesel are easy to buy, propane lasts forever, natural gas comes in a pipe...) -Initial Cost (your source, and wether you opt for used or new, and features) -Convenience (auto start and transfer, manual start, etc) -Noise level (high-speed, high power, air cooled louder than low speed, low power, water cooling) -Long-term durability (not only in operation, but under non-use circumstances). Here at my place, I have MANY generators, and they're all used for a variety of purposes. I have several engine-driven welders with AC capability, and while they do a fine job of providing electricity, they're first-and-foremost intended for welding, so the AC power output vs. fuel consumption is nowhere near that of a dedicated generating plant. That said, I HAVE provided emergency power to friends and neighbors with welder-gens, and it made 'em happy regardless. A REAL standby generating system is just that... always ready. That means you know it will always be capable of starting up quickly, and putting power to your property up to your expectations. Since everyone's expectations are different, there's many different ways of defining 'best'. Keep in mind, though, that the GENERATOR is nothing more than what the word says- a generator. To have emergency power, you need to have an Emergency Power System... which is to say, an understanding of what you NEED, a fair idea of what you want, and a thorough understanding of the ramifications of both. In short, YOU need to know what your power demand IS, what parts of it are CRITICAL, and then, determine what it will take not only to provide that power, but to keep it fueled, functional, and in good maintenance, and you need to be able to safely remove the desired loads from utility connection, and feed them by the generating system. You could have a whole-service transfer switch, a dedicated 'critical loads' transfer panel, or use a backfeed system (and there ARE legal ways to backfeed, but it requires proper interlocks) or simply enough, just string in extension cords. I won't tell you how to do it, but I'll tell you what I have for an emergency power system, and try to explain WHY. I have three generating plants, a rack of 12v batteries, a 120vac inverter, two 1000 gallon propane tanks, three 125 gallon propane tanks, one backfeed breaker interlock system, one 3-unit generator selection panel, and one whole-property transfer switch. With exception of ONE Square-D breaker interlock kit, NONE of it was purchased new, and I have about $4000 total invested in it all. My situation is simple- we live on a 3-mile long gravel road not far from city limits, but it's a single-ended distribution line with several areas subject to blowing/drifting snow and very exposed to high winds. We typically see 5-6 small outages (less that 24 hours) a year, and typically one or two extended outages (a week or so), during mid-winter, to early spring. During our outages, it is normal that large quantities of utility customers are without power in the cities, and for the long outages, it's most frequent that the road is too iced and drifted for traffic to get anywhere near the problem areas. Since there's only a small handful of people on this end of the line, we're we're usually quite a ways down the pecking order to get power restored. This means we need to be prepared not only to provide our own power, we also need to have everything else necessary on hand for a snow-in. Compared to utility power, running a generator to power your home is incredibly expensive. You're burning fuel to run an engine that, in most generators, has to spin at governed speed, and uses a certain amount of fuel just to do it... and up to a certain point, there's no penalty for applying more load. Eventually, you reach a point where the generator starts pulling mechanical load, so the engine's fueling rate rises by virtue of the governor holding frequency steady. It is for this reason that my 35kw powerplant' 331ci 6-cylinder Hercules only gets put to work when we REALLY need power- like... I need to run machine tools in my shop, or we need to run the electric range or dryer, or stove, or air-compressors, or welders... or a cyclotron... I never run the big monster without having a load on it, because base fuel consumption is well over a gallon-an-hour. Nice thing is, it's a 1200rpm machine, so when she's running, it has a nice, low PURRR. It was built in '58 for the Civil Aeronautics Administration... I have a Kohler 15kw machine... has a 4-cylinder Waukesha engine on it, again, 1200rpm, water cooled... made in '42, was originally use on a navy ship. It uses about a gallon-and-a-half an hour under full load, but more like a gallon an hour at minimum load. It will carry all the basic house loads (sump pumps, furnace blower, well pump, refrigerators) as well as a few more loads (either dryer or stove, and if she picks carefully, perhaps the dishwasher, but definately the basic outdoor floodlights, garage doors, etc. During cold winter nights, I don't like leaving the bigger generators running... uses too much fuel for keeping the critical loads powered... so I have a 6.5kw military genset (type PE-197) which uses a whole lot less fuel. It's powered by a Hercules ZXB liquid-cooled four cylinder, and also fuel'd by propane. It will power both sump pumps, the well pump, the computer network, 2-way radios, and the Dish TV system just fine, but not much more. Like the Kohler, it was made during WW2. All three of these units have a few key things in common: 1) they can all be electrically started from batteries 2) they all feature MAGNETOs, and HAND CRANKS, so having a dead battery does NOT keep it from being started. (yes, they all start very well with cranks) 3) They're all liquid cooled, low speed machines. 4) They're all seven times tougher than anything one could buy today 5) All easily serviced, with a minimum of special parts, no complicated electronics 6) They're all set up and ready to operate from WITHIN a building... so if something takes one down, I'm not working out in the cold rainy-snow trying to get it fired up again. Liquid cooling is a very important feature to me- partially because of the long life afforded by liquid cooled engines, but moreso because I'm very sensitive to the cost of operation. A generator burns about twice as much liquid fuel, as what is available at the generator's output leads. This means the REST of the energy burned (fuel quantity) is going strictly to waste... exhaust heat, ambient heat, and noise. Because of this, when you run a generator, and power a furnace, you're burning LOTS of fuel for the result you get. My generators not only generate electric power to run the furnace, they DISABLE the gas-valve on the furnace, and heat the house using coolant from the generators... I circulate the generator engine's coolant flow into the house, and that keeps everybody warm and safe. On cold winter nights, I can just leave that itty-bitty bugger running, and even though it may not be carrying much electrical load, it's providing heat to the house, and spinning the furnace blower... so at least I'm not burning propane in BOTH. I don't automatically transfer my generators, nor do I automatically exercise 'em. I do all of it MANUALLY. Nothing wrong with doing it automatically, but keep in mind- if you're gone, and the power goes out, the generator could start, and run, and burn up your entire fuel supply for nothing... and not power your house. The other issue... modern electronics is VERY susceptible to damage from electrical storms. My dad's Generac found a zero-value circumstance several years ago when lightning hit the utilty lines and blew out the control panel's microprocessor. The generator started and ran fine, but would not goverrn, and would not generate. Worse yet, it would NOT TURN OFF... only way to stop it, was for me to disconnect the fuel lockoff solenoid and let it run-to-stop. eventually he got a replacement panel, and it cost something silly like... $500 for a new microprocessor board. Insult to injury, after going two days with no power, eh? Okay, so I gotta wrap up and hit the bed, but that one guy back in back has his hand up, so one more question, go ahead... Okay, yeah... that battery rack and inverters... yeah, I was gonna get to that. There's sometimes when our power needs are about zippo.... like... in the early-mid fall... at night... would like to just shut the generators down. Well, I can do that, and as long as nobody opens the fridge or goes more'n about a dozen flushes of the toilet, we'll be fine. It's good, however, to be able to flip on some of the lightswitches in order to see what we're working on. To make it cheap, simple, and effective, I use my boat batteries... I take 'em out of the boats every fall, and leave 'em on a low-power trickle/float charger all winter. There's always one or two OTHERS on the rack, also charged and ready. The inverter is a cheap one... mebbie $50 or so is all it took to get it... I've wired that to a set of dedicated wires going into the house... and there's a bunch of electrical circuits tied in there... and in the sockets of all those lamps, are LED bulbs. I can essentially turn the generators off, and run lighting as necessary, especially around the generators (so I can see 'em if I need to work on one to get it running). my setup is not optimal for someone else, but it may give you some reasons to help understand why I do it this way. |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 4:14am
|
Right Chalmersbob, some of the cheap stuff. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: Jeff Z. NY
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 5:01am
|
For the most part a portable generator will do fine during power outages that usually don't last a week.
I didn't buy one to light up the whole town. I use it to run a few circuits in the house. I thought way ahead and have propane heat besides oil since I don't need electricy to run the propane and a propane cook top that also doesn't need electricity. When the power is out for awhile it's not the end of the world. A few circuits for a few lights and water is fine for me. I know some of you can't live without a tv. ------------- I Love Meatballs and Dumplings on Toast with Gravy and Rosemary and ??? {Open For Suggestions} |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 9:51am
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On the backfeed interlock kits- there is an NEC code approval for backfeed breaker systems that use an 'exclusive interlock', meaning, a device which cannot allow both the main breaker AND a breaker to the backfeed source, to be engaged at the same time. My panels are all Square D type QO panels, and Square D has generator backfeed interlock kits available for these, as well as the Homline series. The kit is about $65, and takes about 20 minutes to install, a cordless drill and screwdriver is all it takes. You install a dedicated breaker (of any appropriate size) to your generator feed circuit, and install that breaker in one particular position, typically the first place beside the MAIN, and the interlock assembly goes over the main and generator breaker. Perfectly acceptable to code, because it prevents backfeed to your utility main. The advantage here, is that once installed, it cannot be casually defeated, and it's operation is very, very obvious. If you have a small portable gennie, just hook that breaker to a male plug receptacle in some location that is convenient for operating your generator... I always prefer a dry area with good ventilation and wind protection, 'cause invariably, you'll be standing by it, either adding fuel, or trying to get it started... under Mother Nature's worst conditions. Don't put a generator somewhere where exhaust fumes will find their way down into your basement... a little carbon monoxide, especially when you've got the house tightly insulated and buttoned-down to hold heat... goes along way towards poisoning folks. Don't close the gennie up inside the garage... And finally- keep your feeder cables big and short (low loss) and be very thorough on picking which devices you're using. Always go through the breakers on your panels and know whats on each one, and decide wether you really need it. Portable generators can't carry an infinite load, and they can't carry heavy loads for very long. IF you have a substantial 'base' load running, and something with a motor (furnace blower, well pump, air compressor) tries to start, the generator will be put in an overload state, and the starting motor, likewise, will not be able to fully come up to speed, and this results in damage to motors, starting capacitors, and of course, your generator and feeder... but also, it's very hard on everything else that's running. Know Thyself- Nothing in Excess! |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 12:21pm
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Dave, When you install that inter-lock kit I don't consider that back feeding. That's converting your panel into a transfer panel. That male plug receptacle you refer to is called an "inlet". Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 5:51pm
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You're absolutely correct, Dusty- it becomes a code-compliant 'transfer' system. Important to note that many electrical inspectors AREN'T wholly aware of these interlock devices, so if one is installed and inspected, keep a copy of the interlock paperwork at the panel for the AHJ (inspector), so they can catch up with the situation. There's several other points-of-code that someone doing a transfer-setup install should be aware: IF you're planning on installing a TRANSFER SWITCH between the METER and your PANEL, you need to size the transfer switch to meet or exceed the service rating... i.e., if you have a 300A service, you need a transfer switch rated 300+ A. This is really expensive. There IS an exception, though. Let's say you have a 300A meter, but only a 150A panel... If you have a 300A DISCONNECT located between the meter and panel, you can install ANY SIZE of transfer switch between the disconnect and your panel, and be perfectly code compliant. WHY? Simple- Code requirement is that your FIRST disconnect device be suitable for the entire service load of the downstream panel. Having a 100A transfer switch is irrelevant downstream of a 300A disconnect. It's strange, but because of how it's written, you can go from a 300A disconnect to a 100A transfer switch, to a 150A panel. Dunno why anyone would... EXCEPT for the fact that the 150A panel may only be populated to 90A, and rarely loaded past 75A. Now, why the heck would anyone run a 300A service, when the panel is only 150? My farm is an excellent example- a 300A feeder coming onto a property with my 200A main panel... but there's a pick-off going to two grain bins, each having 10hp blower motors on the dryer units. The bins have their own dedicated disconnects, so the pole-pig and wire capacity make total sense. And just in case it wasn't totally clear- all my gens are liquid cooled for many reasons, but the most important, is that when you run a generator, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the fuel energy burned, becomes electric power. The remaining energy goes to produce sound and waste heat. I can do without the sound (save the fact that it's always good to be able to listen and see if it's having problems)... but... In continuous running, my furnace burns about a gallon of propane per hour. Why in the world would I run a generator at 1 gallon an hour, to run the furnace, which is also burning a gallon an hour... while at the same time, I'm throwing away half the generator's fuel use (a half gallon an hour) in heat and noise? So I eliminate the furnace fuel consumption by disabling the gas valve whenever there's hydronic heat available. This includes heat from a solid-fuel boiler out in the barn... same one that heats the shop floors, also heats a heat-exchanger connected to the generator engines. My house furnace kicks out 68kbtu... and uses about 71kbtu to do it. A gallon of propane is about 97,000btu. Do the math on it, and you'll see that recapturing that waste heat is more than enough not only to keep the house warm, it also provides enough to warm the shop floors... and the shop floor heat, being coupled to the heat exchanger, means that I'm STORING the extra waste heat to continue using it in the future. Also means that when I'm heating the shop floors and house with the boiler, I'm keeping the engine blocks warm and ready. Saves lots of money, but better yet, saves lots of fuel. When we're snowbound and out of power for a long time... at -25F, that's pretty important. That fuel bill is painful, but worse yet, it may be longer-yet 'till that truck can get to me. And Jeff's comment about the TV... my wife is an incredible college football enthusiast. If momma ain't happy... NOBODY happy. When she wants to watch the game, we run laundry, wash dishes, bake stuff... and I'm out in the shop running machine tools. When nighttime comes, we shut down to the smallest unit to keep the critical stuff alive. We could shut it all down, even cut power to the batteries, and 'ride' through the night with candles and flashlights. When the fuel level is low, and the outage period is long, we will... but my job is frequently on-call 24/7, as is my neighbor (doctor), and it is my power system that keeps our network, computers, and communication equipment functional. My property also contains two radio repeater/uplink sites for area weather and safety communications, so I treat power as a critical issue. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 5:57pm
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And to keep it in an ALLIS frame-of-mind, I saw a Palmer generating plant, about 18kw or so, single-phase 240, gasoline carb AND propane mixer, out in the Wickenburg, Az area back in January... it was posted on Craigslist, and if I had the cash, it would've come home with me. It had a very unique engine casting, like it WANTED to be a WD block, but wasn't... the governor location was wrong, but everything else looked okay. My thought is that it was one of the BUDA variations. Very neat, but alas, I had insufficient cash. Would'a been the perfect backup mill for a die-hard Allis enthusiast. |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 6:09pm
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While on this topic - one of great interest to families living where I am after Irene and now the early snowstorm - I was talking with my electrician who said something that I am having a hard time explaining to myself. We were discussing the size of the generator and he mentioned that a generator that puts out 6kw at 240 volts will deliver 12kw if all the lines in my two-column breaker panel are 120 volts: 6kw on each side of the 240 and thus to each column of breakers. Does this sound right to the electrical experts on this forum? 'Cuz I'm thinking that sounds too good to be true! Thanks, guys. ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 6:23pm
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Dave Kemp, The web site below is for a company that makes inter locks for many makes of breaker panels. http://www.interlockkit.com/
Dave(in MA), I don't think so. You get 3kw on each 120 volt leg for a total of 6kw. Some generators are dual voltage, like many motors. A dual voltage one can be switch to 120 volt only in the above example it would able to put out 6kw on 1- 120 volt circuit. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 6:31pm
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The KW output of the generator is the same, regardless of how you split it up, provided that you distribute your load to the generator's leads appropriately. Single-phase generators have two legs... On a 12kw generator, you'll have 6kw per leg, and on a 6kw, you'll have 3kw per leg. Each leg is capable of carrying HALF the generator's output. Math is simple. KW / Volts = Amps 6kw @ 240v = 25A. 12kw @ 120v = 100A. A 6kw generator that's wired for 240/120v single-phase output, will be able to give you 25A on each leg... for a total of 50A at 120v, or up to 25A at 240v... or any combination that results in no more than 6000w. As for breaker position- Let's say you have a 120/240 generator... three wires... Hot+, neutral, and Hot-. Your breaker panel has TWO hot busses, and a neutral buss. When you populate the panel with breakers, notice that one bussbar's connection tabs (to the breakers) alternate right-and-left... while the other bussbar's tabs alternate left-and-right. If you put single-phase breakers in, they're all gonna be 120vac to neutral... because they're only connected to ONE busbar at-at-time. Your 240v breakers connect to BOTH busbars. What's happening here, is that your single-phase breaker is pulling it's power from only one 'half' of the generator's windings. The NEXT 120v breaker will be on the 'opposite' half... so you're distributing your loads equally between the two 'legs' of the generator. When you install a 240v breaker, it's picking power from across BOTH legs, so your load is distributed across the whole generator winding. The main point being... you're not going to load just one HALF of the generator by using just the right-or-left column. In order to 'improperly load' the generator, you'd have to install a 120v breaker in 'every other' slot, and leave the interim positions unloaded. Moral here- If you have a generator improperly balanced... like... most of the active loads are on just one 'leg'... you'll end up putting the generator in an overload state LONG before actually reaching it's capacity... so when you're getting ready to set up a generator system, it's a good time to take a really close look at what breakers are connected to which busbar, and perhaps re-arrange 'em in order to 'balance' out all your necessary loads to get the best result from your system. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 6:46pm
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Oh, and for what it's worth- one horsepower is the mathematical equivalent of 746 watts. That means you need to multiply the number of KW by 1.34 to determine horsepower equivalent. A 10kw generator needs AT LEAST 13.5hp coming in on the shaft to hit it's 'advertised' output... but you'll be hard-pressed to find an engine that'll actually DO it, because of mechanical and electrical losses... primarily, heat (generators don't carry current without getting hot) and of course, the drag of a mechanical cooling fan to keep it from melting. A 10kw generator with anything LESS than 15hp on tap, in my opinion, is incredibly optimistic, and not likely to survive long, nor capable of starting a big motor, if it actually CAN hit that number. When shopping for generators, look at how they're advertising it, and then compare it to others. An Onan 5CCK generator turning at 1800rpm is rated for 5kw continuous duty, and has a twin cylinder engine that would be otherwise rated for 12hp at 1800, and 16hp at 3600rpm... and under those circumstances, will outlast several owners. The Waukesha FC140 on my old Kohler 15kw plant was rated something like 24hp at 1200rpm, continuous duty, and given a 4-hour overload rating of 120%. When you see generators labeled with terms like 'peak' or 'surge' rating, what they're doing is putting lipstick on a pig. Look for 'duty cycle' at a given level. When you see a 100% duty cycle rating, THEN you're looking at a realistically-rated machine. |
Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 6:55pm
I would like to thank all of the tax payers for giveing it to us. [homeland security grant] ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 7:06pm
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I've got a question for anyone that knows Onan generators. I have 4000 watt 120 volt Onan in our motor home. One summer a few years ago our power went off. Like someone stated above I figured it's not the end of the world, most of the time the power will come back on before the day is over. A couple of hours later, I learned that it was going to be off for 2 to 3 days. There were 3 things I wanted to run. The refrigerator, a mid size home refrigerator/freezer. The well pump, it's a shallow well 1/3 hp. 120 volt. The water heater, it's fired with a LP power burner, standing pilot, a small fan motor rated in watts and the gas valve 24 volt about .3 amp. So you can see the total load is not very large. I don't have a transfer switch so I opened the breaker panel and removed wires from their from each breaker for the well pump and the refrigerator, put them together and put them on a male cord cap and brought a white/neutral wire from the same cord cap to the neutral bar in the panel. And with a proper size extension cord plugged into the generator. I now had both running water and a running refrigerator. The water heater just plugs into a 120 volt receptacle. I went to the shop and got a short extension cord to use for the water heater. When I got back to the basement the water pump had come to pressure and shut off, the refrigerator was still running. The water heater had cooled off so it needed to run. When I plugged it in with the running refrigerator the generator shut down like it had been turn off. It appears to me that the Onan generator has electronics that shut it down. I could run the well pump and the refrigerator together, or the water heater and well pump together, but not the water heater and refrigerator together. Question why? Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 7:07pm
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Lemmie get this straight: They required you to install a sprinkler system in your firehouse, and install a 35hp fire pump, powered by said generator, just to operate said generator? I'm questioning why, with a firehouse full of fire pumps, and probably a tanker or two, and at least TWO people capable of dutifully solving fire problems... why they'd think you needed passive fire protection AT ALL... Much less have it in place for the purpose of preventing a fire in the vicinity of a 350kw generating plant driven by a DIESEL engine... Yeah... I'm gonna snuff out a Class B or Class C fire, in a firehouse, by spraying water on a running diesel generator... I had one inspector identify one of our locations as requiring EXPLOSION PROOF electricals (on everything INCLUDING the LOW_VOLTAGE system)...because he thought there might be a situation where diesel fuel would end up dripping in somewhere. So I took a coffee can, poured in a shot of diesel fuel, fired up a zippo and threw it in... and said "What part of this explosion are you worried about"? Most of 'em I've met were not this way, but it just goes to show, there are occasionally people walking around with code-books and clipboards that shouldn't have been allowed to walk out of grade-school. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 7:13pm
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Dusty- sounds like to me that your Onan's RV controls have a load-sensing control system... meaning, you have a switch inside the RV that 'enables' the generator to run, and when there's a load, it will allow it to run just fine, but if the load falls below a certain point, it shuts the generator down. This is something you'd want to bring up with the Onan RV generator guys... Smokstak has a forum specifically for these, and you'll find that there's a few guys there that know the controls exceptionally well... and I'd be surprised if they didn't answer it with a why, AND a how-to defeat that function. One test I'd do... is plug in a 75w lightbulb with the water heater and fridge, and see if it'll run that way. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 8:51pm
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Dave, the refrigerator was running alone, when I added the water heater, the generator shut down. Or if the water was running then plug in the refrigerator, the generator would shut down. The refrigerator died last year, so it's been replaced, and we have not lost our power sense then. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Dave(inMA)
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 10:35pm
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Guys, thanks for confirming what I was thinking about watts per leg. ------------- WC, CA, D14, WD45 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2011 at 12:40am
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DaveKamp you give the gasoline internal combustion engine too much credit and most small diesels for that matter. At best 1/3 the fuel comes out as crankshaft torque, more typically 25%, and so 2/3 to 3/4 comes out as heat to the cooling system and in the exhaust. A company in Ames years ago had three or four large natural gas engines in a back room with water jacketed exhaust manifold and muffler. They extracted everything but the whoosh as heat for the building while generating all the power for the manufacturing plant. The city fathers didn't look too kindly on them since they bought only enough power to start one engine with a very small electric service from the municipal power plant. It was quite viable and economical, but it took grabbing ALL the heat from the engines to make it better than buying utility power. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2011 at 5:14am
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Google up some info on say the square D back feed lock out switch. It is a manual lock out mechanism that makes it impossible to back feed into the main power line if installed per the simple instructions. Here in centtral IL they are not that uncommon. Times have changed in that arena and there is no need for all that transfer equipment if you just want a simple manual system. That is not the typical ole time cooter way of back feeding but I don't know why someone did not think of it eons ago. In my locale you can even have an electrician instal one. Sometimdes also called a panel interlock switch
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Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2011 at 7:05am
I think you understand the problem. Inspectors are typicly people that can't make it in the real world so the get government jobs.
We also had to have a 30,000 gallon water tank built. we did not have enough land to put it under ground so we has a 16x16 ft concrete silo built and lined with 8' in the ground and the inspector said that if we have a flood the silo could float out of the ground. So if the building burns and the sprinkler pump emptys the tank and the milloin year flood comes at the same time we need to worry about the silo floating out of the ground. ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2011 at 7:31am
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"So if the building burns and the sprinkler pump emptys the tank and the
milloin year flood comes at the same time we need to worry about the
silo floating out of the ground." Oh... almost, but here- I got it: If the building burns, and the generator runs and empties the tank, all that water will flood your entire county, and then the generator will shake that silo out of the ground... What a moron. Just the kind of guy you'd want have around to throw water when the french-fry cooker catches on fire. I had an inspection on one of my installations... inspector was talking to the Fire Chief about 'confined space', carbon monoxide, and explosion concerns... Chief asked me if there was 'anything combustable' down in the scale pit... I said "uh... it's a concrete pit, with concrete and steel scale decks"... he said "What's the flashpoint of concrete and steel?" and smiled as he signed my paperwork. <I like this guy!> |