Worth Mentioning; One Fella To Avoid
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38327
Printed Date: 23 Aug 2025 at 10:16pm
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Topic: Worth Mentioning; One Fella To Avoid
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Subject: Worth Mentioning; One Fella To Avoid
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 1:22pm
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We are always taught that if we do not have something good to say about someone, we should just say nothing at all. However, I would like to relay what happened when I dropped a CA off at someone's shop in 2007 as this tractor was to be gone through.
Monies were left with the tractor up front, along with motor side weights, SC claws and brand new Firestone rear tires (loose). When a fella is obviously busy, you know they cannot drop everything and stay on your tractor exclusively as they must work on multiple projects to keep the flow of money coming in.
Before this, I had viewed a number of tractors this fella had restored and felt confident that I would receive a quality restoration in say, 12-24 months time max? I even went so far as to advise this person that I had a number of units that I would like to have restored, from a D12, up to and including a solid D19D and I could keep him busy for some time. I grew up with an A-C dealer in the family and we had a CA on our dairy.
This CA was my first A-C and I wanted it done up right for sentimental value.
Prior to dropping the tractor off, I had found over a dozen A-C natural gas power units in North Texas, called this fella with the information and he came down from OK and scooped them up quickly; pictures of them were posted for sale on his web page within two weeks (someone else many of us deal with on this site then purchased those engines and ironically, I received a valvetrain for my D12 resto from one of the few engines he took posession of). I believe the purchaser of those engines only received two of them and he is one of the prominent vendors on this site.
Repeated attempts to contact this fella were in vain and I spoke with him only twice since dropping the tractor off. E-mails originally answered (seeking parts/machine work for other A-C friends, as well as updates on my tractor) stopped over two years ago.
When I heard his shop burnt down late last year, I had no choice but to write the affair off until I heard a few months ago that one tractor was left; it was a CA with no rear wheels, and was apparently left right where I had unloaded it in 2007 (now on blocks).
I decided to make the five hour trip and tie this in with visiting Dave Maddux and a trip to Austin's Salvage on my return. I removed my spare rear tires/wheels from my D12 going through restoration locally, hooked onto my trailer and hit the road with printouts of all e-mail correspondence and cancelled checks to Bob "okieboy" Hough since 2007.
I can send someone a picture if they want to see what I brought home, but frankly, I believe just getting the word out may save someone some aggravation.
The CA was complete and ran like a top when dropped off, but was missing some parts when I went and pulled it onto my trailer recently; no rear rims/tires (the new Firestone rubber left with him was obviously long gone), no SC claws, no hand crank, no motor side weights and no carb .............
I discovered last night that the motor is in-fact now seized.
We are all trusting soles in this world and I have always considerred myself a pretty decent judge of character. Still, when you get bit, you tend not to forget it.
A number of folks on this site had past dealings with this fella from Chelsea, OK and know darned well who he is; now you all do as well.
I have met some great folks on this site, including outstanding vendors that are always willing to help.
This experience has made me appreciate the good A-C folks I have met over the years even more.
I will get the old gal running someday, but the monetary cost to me on this one is over 2000.00. If you are wondering if I considered legal action? Only fleetingly as "you can't get wine out of a rock" and he is also in another state. Legal costs and all just did not seem worth the effort and putting the word out about this is good enough for me.
Ironically, I will have to keep all information about this tractor as I keep everything in a file for each unit and I will always have a reminder of him and what happened.
Sorry for the long posting, but I hope it just might save someone else some grief.
Thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 2:15pm
| Hey sorry to hear about what happened to you, have had similiar dealings and your desision not to go to court unfortunatly is a good one. Have been to court a couple of times dealing with crooks and the judicial system is a joke, the judges have no clue there is no such thing as telling the truth, and if you think it works like court on TV your going to be in for a huge awaking. As a rule anybody that asks for money up front on any job should be avoided, if they dont have the business to front the parts etc there business isnt doing to well, I can understand progress payments, but payment up front is almost always a bad deal, found that out on a 13,000 dollar roof, the hard way I might ad. |
Posted By: R.W
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 2:24pm
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This is why I don't want other people doing work for me "except a couple we know really well and know there work". |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 4:05pm
| Not the only bad apple in OK. Tracy Martin |
Posted By: Tony.Or
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 4:17pm
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Thanks for checking on my Engines Tim. Okie made off with 16 power units of mine. Stay clear of him. He also ripped off several others that i know of.
Tony ------------- http://www.tonystractors.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.tonystractors.com |
Posted By: Burgie
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:02pm
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I have had 2 dealings with him--------1ST AND LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------- "Burgie" |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:03pm
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DANG Tony !! I knew Okie has some past problems, but had no idea you had a loss like that ! Sorry for both you guys and others that lost out. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: ACscott
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:05pm
| Is this the same okie as on the old forum? |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:13pm
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I can hear Fred furiously typing away on his keyboard as we are discussing this. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: David Maddux
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:13pm
| It sounds like you made it home alright. I wish your trip would have been under better circumstances. I know what you have been through. Been there. I am glad you recovered something. Dave. |
Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:29pm
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I know from other forums if someone is that crooked they are banned from the site. Sounds like a pretty crooked fella. Luckily yours didnt burn at least.
------------- Central PA Allis Express 1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
Posted By: Dave in PA
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:31pm
| Was he the fella that did the "babbit bearings" on the older site? |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:32pm
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Yes, same one that used to be on the older version of this site.
I am a trusting soul, not sole!
Surprising what you miss when the thought process is trying to convey frustrating FACTS.
Stay clear of this guy . . . .
Anybody have a spare complete MS or Zenith carb for this late CA?
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Posted By: R.W
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:34pm
| Do you have any pictures of before and after you brought it to him? |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 5:42pm
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I have pictures and will have to dig them up.
What I am needing now:
Complete carb set-up (prefer a MS over the Zenith)
Hand crank
SC claws
Gas tank
I have enough flanges/bolting to make up another set of rears and will get that motor freed up.
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Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 6:29pm
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Tim, what number is that MS? I got a couple in a box of Zeniths I bought, maybe one will be a match? Glenn ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 8:44pm
| WHAT A %^-*#! SURPRIZE !!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT HE IS A LYING THEFT . .FACT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: acwdwcman
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 9:00pm
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well it sonds like someone is a dirtbag!!!!!!!!!!!.. %%^$^$@@$R&^&*(()*^#$@# thats just my $0.02. sorry for what happened to you! ------------- wd with a freeman model 90 trip loader, wd45, 38 unstylled wc, b 10 garden tractor and 2-14 ac trip plow. grandpa has a 56 wd45. wd. allis chalmers snap coupler blade and 3 bottom snap coupler plow |
Posted By: Darrell G (MN)
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 9:02pm
| In 2007 I posted some info about this individual and was accussed of bashing. I had some trouble with the Okieboy and it ended up with him paying up or facing going to jail, well he didn't go to jail, I guess a few more people had to get hurt before a post of this nature is worth reading and heeding. If anyone wants to know the whole story, you can call me at 612-280-3397. I sure don't want anyone else to go through what has been mention so far on this post and to the many who have not posted. |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 9:04pm
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I knew I could hear Fred typing, and he's over 800 miles away from me! ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Dale H. ECIL
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 9:49pm
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I am one of MANY that got ripped off by him. I hope he still has a computer and reads this.
------------- Allis Chalmers Museum, Paris, Il.http:// www.allischalmersmuseum.com 217-275-3428 |
Posted By: mdtractormechanic
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 10:10pm
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Why hasn't someone or group brought charges against this low life. ------------- Joe's 1939 Model WC, 1940 Model RC, 1944 & 1950 Model C's, B-125 PU |
Posted By: Eldon (WA)
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 10:16pm
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It is really sad....Okie was once a respected poster on the old forum. I wonder if he was out to scam people from the beginning (and set us all up), or if he fell on hard times and that drove him to ripping people off?? ------------- ALLIS EXPRESS! This year: |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 10:26pm
| I dunno what to add.....Okie's a bad apple. Thanks Darrell for salvaging my "deal" with him. |
Posted By: D-allis Iowa
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 6:38am
| A bad apple indeed. What did he say to you when you arrived? Did he help you load or did he hide? |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 7:37am
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Wow, I had no idea. I've seen a few guys that sell on evilbay get beat up on yt's buyer/seller feedback, but none here. Appreciate the heads up... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 7:52am
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Being in business for over 30 years I also said anyone who wants a signed contract and cash up front for work to be done later , RUN from them.
Anyone who says they will handle all payments and not to worry, RUN from them also.
Have worked as a sub on jobs where contractor wanted me to submit bill to them for later payment . Unless that option was talked out first with the owner and the contractor, insist on a check from the owner.
I always worked time and material on all jobs except septic systems where i could and did jobs to the specifications and design which could only be changed with inspectors approval , so easy to add on any charges wanted as it was a firm bid needing 3 people to sign off on changes.
Spell out when cash needs to be paid, a draw is needed and get reciept that the contractor has paid the bill, a lein waver marked with check # and payment when check clears written in bold writing.
------------- Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 7:54am
------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
D-allis Iowa wrote:Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 7:55am
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Sorry to hear you were one of the people who got ripped off Tim. I know of at least one other another who got it bad,, REAL bad. |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:16am
| You guys are thinking wrong if you think he is going to read any of this or bother him about his conduct, I have met many people like this okie guy and there all cut from the same bolt of cloth, its a game to them and they just laugh about it.There is 2 guys not to far from here , one is a contractor, the other was in the logging field, the one guy use to break into private pits at night and steal gravel, and stock pile it at home, it took a couple of years till they caught on to his game some owners got together and sat in a pit one night and waited when he arrived the beat the crap out of him, which lasted a month and he was right back at it, filed bankruptcy in every imaginable way, than renamed his business under his kids name and he is still in business and still scamming. The other guy had similiar expierence picking up logs out in the woods that didnt belong to him and than turn them in as his own, got the snot kicked out of him after about a year by the other loggers, even went so far as to smash his truck with there loaders, he got out of the logging business but moved on to another scam business, it seems like thats all these guys know is how to cheat. The funny thing is if you meet these jokers they are always nice people, they know just what to say and just how to act to get your trust. They have to know what there doing is dishonest but it dont bother them in the least. |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:51am
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I rolled into town (around the outside as I know the cafe he frequents) and pulled up to his place. I did knock on his door after befriending the dog on a chain on the front porch. Wall mounted ac was running and I could hear a tv or radio blaring, no vehicle in the yard (one that looked like it ran anyway). I went to work trying to move the restaurant oil jugs that were in cardbaord boxes under/around the tractor; my fingers went right through the plastic and I had to slide these slimey leaking containers away from the tractor so I could get at it. Mounted my rears and started hand cranking my trusty chain pull up my wooden ramps, dragging the tractor through the old restaurant oil. When I got her on the trailer, I pulled down the street without even tying it down as I figured I'd better get out of town. It then hit me that I was "safe" as I had possesion and turned around. Parked fully on the street, I then walked the old pad from the burnt building, looking for any of my parts and in the weeds out back for any of Tony's NatGas motors.
Finding nothing but scrap, I hit the road for a 30 minute drive to a buddies place as he allowed me to store it there overnight vs. dragging the tractor north to Dave's.
Will he contact me? I very much doubt it and if he does I will ask him where my parts are and when he will refund my money.
I see no harm in making sure folks know the facts about what he did and opnely relayed these facts to folks on my entire trip.
I will look in my data books for the MS carb number originally installed as I would like to get one set up with the proper linkage mounting.
Interesting to see how many others had bad dealings with this guy as I had heard some stories.
Live and learn I guess . . . . .
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Posted By: Larry in OK
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 9:00am
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I live about 2 miles from the guy. I bought a few small parts from him a about a year ago but after looking at his operation I wouldn't have trusted him to do any work for me. I remember seeing your CA when I was there, it was pretty well intact by your description then. ------------- Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for much of anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs. |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 9:13am
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Ya shoulda called me Tim. I would have ridden shotgun (literally). We coulda winched it on my trailer and had it loaded in minutes. Honestly I can't believe your tractor was still there. I've answered a lot of questions about District Attorneys and such from out of state. Some even called thinking I was him since I have the business name similar to his alias. I could fill in a number of gaps to the stories, but it really serves no purpose on the forum. Maybe over a cup of coffee at a show someday I can tie things in together for a bunch of ya, but not here. I never lost money to him, but got real close. A personal visit seemed to encourage things. JimD ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: TexasAllis
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 9:24am
I was wondering if you would post Jim. I talked to Okie on a few occasions and usually got sound advice. What a shame things turned out so bad.
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Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 9:34am
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I have intentionally stayed out of the mix publicly, as apparently so did Tony C. I had no idea he was wrapped in it too. Realize that when somone like us that makes our living from this world loses money, it takes food off our table. I've even called Tony's office to warn them of a scam or bad check writer. I know that no one can afford to lose money but for some of us it could cost us our house. Yes, it's really sad that Bob went the route he did. He taught me some good things about AC. I'm really sorry be brought so much grief to the AC community. I wound up even with him. Not sure why, but I did. I have some other customers that he really did well for and work coming out of his shop was great when it actually came out.
------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 10:24am
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Hello Jim and i wondered if you would jump in.
Yes, Bob was/is a very knowledgable fella and i wish him the best.
I have no interest in dealing with him in-future and this is my last post on the subject.
What's done is done and I am moving on with my life.
Lesson learned.
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Posted By: Terry GA
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 11:44am
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Bought a WD wide front from him in 2003 and all went well.Sent the money up front and then sent the shipping truck.Guess i was lucky but back then he posted allot on the old forum and seemed ok. ------------- I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder. |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 12:24pm
| The other bad apple in OK is that POS David Collins, from Roland. Took me and at least one other on here. I contacted the sheriff and he knew the POS too. Not feasible money wise to have pursued it farther. Seems like there was several in line ahead of me. Just wanted to clear that up. Tracy Martin |
Posted By: Armand(AZ)
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 3:16pm
| Tim, was there a D-17 NF still in the yard by the street. If so, it belongs to Brad Hapgood (BradMI) as I checked on it for him when Dave and I was there about 4 years ago. At the time I advised him that a couple parts were missing but the single front wheel assy was still laying there. I hope he got it out of there before things really went bad. I haven't seen Brad post here for long time. I liked Okie and it's a sad deal to see how things turned out. Armand |
Posted By: TimNearFortWorth
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 4:28pm
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Hello Armand, no on the D17NF. Just a small Ford and Massey that look like they showed up after the fire as they are sitting on the pad.
Great contact you gave me on the modelmaking by the way, his work is truly impressive and I have forwarded a sample he made me to my marketing folks in Houston.
Daniel is a real nice guy to boot and I hope we can get some model work for him from both our domestic surface and subsea departments in-time.
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Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 6:58pm
| Like a Dog that Kill's Chickens,there is NO STOPING him until the Chickens are all going ,or get Wise and stay away !!!!!!! |
Posted By: ChuckLuedtkeSEWI
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:19pm
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I can't believe that you had the cool to go all the way there and load it up without losing your cool. I myself would have probably lost it if he would have came out. Seeing as you thought someone was home but didn't come out shows you what kind of person he is, can't even face you.
Maybe the fire was a way of someone higher then us all giving him what he deserves.
Having a family member that is very similar to this, I know all too well what many of you have went through. Years ago, I often thought of changing my last name to not be associated with him, but that would be disrespectful to my dad, as he's as honest as they come.
Another suggestion, maybe Darrin can put a buyer/seller feedback section on here, kind of like on the YT forum. Then when we all have a good deal with someone we can put it on there, and when something like this happens, it can be placed there as well. Would have maybe saved some of you guys some trouble and heartache. It seems that 99.9% of the people on here are the best to deal with, but I'm sure all of us would love to know the other 0.01%. ------------- 1955 WD45 diesel 203322 was my dad's tractor, 1966 D15 23530, 1961 HD3 Crawler 1918, 1966 D17 IV 83495, 1937 WC 41255, 1962 D19 6221 |
Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:31pm
I'm half tempted to call you just to pass the time listening to you bash the heck out of this guy the next time I'm ticked about somthing. Hearing about other's worse problems make my problems seem like an ice cold beer after a long day.... ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: AC WD45
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 8:35pm
I would have lost it pulling int the driveway and would have told and shown him just how I felt about the BS. ------------- German Shepherd dad 1957 Allis Chalmers WD45 #WD234847 1951 Allis Chalmers WD #WD88193 |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 11:37pm
Before
 ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 5:43am
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Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 5:48am
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 7:29am
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I consider myself lucky when it came to dealing with Bob. I lost a lot less than Tony, Darryl, and a few of our other Orange family members/friends here. But, let me say this, I DO NOT agree with what was said about money up front. Obviously, you were never in your own business, so you don't know what its like to get burned the other way around. I built many a custom car/street rod & engines for my customer's over the years out of my shop, and I learned many years ago, you use THEIR money to build THEIR cars, not yours. I got burned a couple times cause' I was a nice guy, did the hand shake thing and wound up loosing quite a bit of money on projects that went sour due to divorce, money problems, gambling problems, drugs, or whatever. Then I would have to try to recoop some of my lost money by either trying to sell the rejected project, or whatever needed to be done. The difference is, when your dealing with someone with a good reputation, receipts and invoices for money exchanged towards the T&M of the project are drawn up after a sit down one on one with the customer to see exactly what he or she wants from this endevor. Also, a contract can be an option so the owner of the vehicle or in this case Tractor knows how the work is performed and what is expected of the owner, and the person doing the service for that exchange of money. The "handshake" and a "mans word" doesn't mean a thing anymore. There's to many crooks out there looking to take advantage of you! When you build cars, there's thousands of dollars being spent on parts and labor, ( and Tractors are starting to get that way also), so you sure as Hell don't want to spend thousands on someone's car or Tractor or whatever project, and wind up stuck with it due to non-payment!! As age comes on, I don't have the ambition anymore to build cars for my customers like I did in my younger years, only for myself, and I can't get them done either. I still have customers asking me if I would build another car for them. Its very flattering to hear that, but I decline. That's one of the reason's I decided to stick with the electrical division of my business and offer my services that way.
I feel your pain that Bob stung you like he did others including myself. He even tried to stick it to some of his so called closer friends and he did. One guy in Hanover, PA was a lot sharper than Bob, and knew Bob's game, so he played Bob's game with him. Fortunately, Bob didn't get anywhere except get his own crap back at him. That's the only funny part bout' this situation. Guys like Bob have no heart, and don't give a
 about people in general. Only themselves. His excuse book was the size of a local telephone book, and that's when he was returning phone calls. Darryl can tell you his story to you on the phone. It'll make yer' hair stand up. I just hope no one else falls into Bob's web as I understand he moved outta' state...... Sorry for the long post. mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
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Posted By: jjrosty
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 10:03am
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After Looking at JimD's picture, I think he's been in my store in Tulsa. I feel all your guys pain in being ripped off. I've been there most of the time for smaller amounts, But the guys with the best stories are the ones that take for the most.. TIM I would have been willing to help you as I'm not that far away. There is an open invitation for any of you when you are in Tulsa, visit me at ReTool. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 10:54am
| I dont know what the answer is but dont think an open forum is it. The problem with an open forum for feed back is there will be loads of BS from both directions there too. Go read the YT feed back forum. Shoddy buyers will claim that honest dealers shafted them and vis-versa. Others with all good intentions but who have yet to feel the pain will defend the bad guy to the inth degree. I had two business dealings with Okie and both went fine but remember that Darrell G tried to warn every one about this individual when? a couple years ago? I know that situation personaly and I know for a fact that Darrell waited until LONG after it was clear what Okie was trying to pull on him before he posted, yet he was still bashed by some on here who didn't agree. A little bit of that goes a long way, believe me. At that time I figgured if he will screw Darrell he will try to get me and I stayed away, my decision and turned out to be the right one. Others made differant decisions and felt the pain. Situation might reverse next time??? I think it best that people read and make up their own mind without a seprrate forum. |
Posted By: roscoe
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 12:09pm
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I had two dealings with him. The first went well, way back in '04 or '05. Had a head re-built. Good job too, for a good price. But, a little later, he accidentally sent me some parts that were supposed to go to someone else, and when I called him, he asked me to forward them on to the correct person, which I did. (I never got re-imbursed, but it wasn't much, $10 or $15)
The second (I think in '06 or maybe '07) was much more painful , not in money but time and aggravation. I bought some used parts, several hundred dollars worth. Nearly a year later I finally cajoled him into shipping them. I was lucky, I guess. He still had a good reputation, and I had heard that he suddenly had health problems of one sort or another.
I did post about it back then...
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 12:29pm
| In reply to Steve in NJ I was the one that said about not fronting money and other than farming I actully do own a steel fab and repair shop, we do not ask for any money up front, even when jobs have gotten quite large, we have on occasion had progress payments where when the job was half completed we recieved some moneys, however this is rare I usually hold the full amount till the job is completed. I am not saying this is the propper way and I will admit I am kind of old school even though I'm in my 40's. Personally I dont feel right about asking for money for our services up front, and I get cautious about fronting people money ( specailly after the 13 grand roof fiasco) Basically what your doing by fronting money is giving an interest free loan, and where is your money going, and if your working on real estate there can be liens involved for unpaid supplies so if you front a crook the cash and he does do the work and not pay the vendors you get to pay them and thats the law unfair as it may seem.Back about 15yrs ago we sold a bunch of corn to a mega dairy they were going to pay for it all in advance out of a loan from FmHA we did the due diligence talked to the loan officer was assured of the funds etc but Gov loans have a slow closing date and this guy needed corn to keep his dairy operating so we agreed to let him start having some of the corn till the paper work was finished, well that dragged out for 9 months when it did finally close I got a cashiers check from FmHA for $2400 the balance owed was $27,000, needless to say I went balistic, to make a long story short the farmer had lied to the FmHA office and forged paperwork showing that we had been paid and this was his balance, we hired a lawyer, we talked to the loan officer and we found out what he had done to fool FmHA into thinking he was more solvent than he was, unfortunalty FmHA couldnt do anything about it, the loan was closed it was maxed out so there was no more funding they were going to supply, all they could do was put a note in his file that he obtained the loans by falsafying paperwork so he could no longer recieve FmHA help in the future. My lawyer told me to walk away from the deal because the cost to get a judgement that he wouldnt pay would bring my loss closer to $50,000 and it was decided to just forget it. I told my lawyer we would never do business like that again with out a letter of credit etc and he told me that it would just be a waste of time in his words if your dealing with a crook no matter what precautions you take he will get you, so from that day on we will not sell any grain to any farmer, unless its cash on the barrel head, he gets his corn when I have my money no exceptions, also if I dont know or cant find out about the guy we do no business with them at all, the steel shop is the same way, I wont ask for your money up front but your not getting your job till I am paid. The problem with fronting money, is who is the crook, if the vendor is the crook your screwed and if your the crook the vendor is screwed, so if no money is fronted until the job is comleted you have his item and when you have your money he has his item. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 12:40pm
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I did a repair job on a B for a guy last winter, he is going to use this tractor but he did want it painted, engine rebuilt, but not a restoration from the ground up. I told him I would do it but he pays for the parts up front and I get my labor when he is satisfied with my work. I would buy the parts, put them on my credit card, and when the card came due I would take reciepts and get money from him......worked out good and the most length of time I front money for parts was a month and a half. He was happy with this arrangement and so was I. He was happy with the job I did and after 3 days of dropping it off I stopped in and got a check for my labor...... ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Dave Everett
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 1:27pm
| Oh ! |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 1:33pm
| That is a good way to do it, and we have done that in the past also, that way we were only on for the labor , plus this works out well if the guy can find part etc through other sourses he can save himself some money, also if I have to buy the parts and it runs thorugh our system we do mark them up, as most vendors do, so if nothing else they save the mark up and we save the hassel of getting the material, parts etc. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 1:55pm
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"God defend me from my friends; from my enemies I can defend myself." ------------- Life lesson: If you’re being chased by a lion, you’re on a horse, to the left of you is a giraffe and on the right is a unicorn, what do you do? You stop drinking and get off the carousel. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 3:47pm
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Yup, not so much as paying for the parts up front, but more of a pay as you go scheme...worked out good and I didnt mark anything up. I am not doing it is a business, just earning a little extra on the side so I do have a sales tax license ect.....saved alot of paperwork...... ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 7:47pm
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I remember being at a GOTO. We were having an internet get to gather and a group picture. Someone said something about a group hug. I think some pictures came out with a blur in the area where Okie was. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Pat the Plumber CIL
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 9:50pm
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I am in business for my self and on any thing larger than 1,000.00 dollars I split job into 3 parts.I do not want anything upfront,but need 1/3 after first part is done,1/3 after 2nd part and remaining balance due at completion.This way the customer knows you are coming back and I wont lose more than a third of the job.It encourages me to do timely,professional work and encourages the customer to pay me.Most large jobs I do I have destroyed most of their house by the time the first part is due and they are anxious for me to finish and get their live back to normal.
I have a hard time handing money over to someone before any work is done,but I understand Steve NJ's point also.I would really have to trust them.I know too many local contractors who get 1/2 up front and then it takes them forever to do the job,If they ever show up. ------------- You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails 1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF. |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 10:23pm
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Dusty, I remeber that! I think it purt near ended group photos! ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: John (C-IL)
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 10:46pm
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 8:47am
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There are several ways to conduct a job and business to collect what is owed for T&M. It greatly depends on the job and the business your in. In my case of building cars, these projects take a lot of time to do, especially if there is quite a bit of custom work involved. Also, 10 outta' 10 times, the customer comes in with more idea's, and revisions as the project continues. If the work was already done in a particular area (say the engine or engine compartment) and a revision comes up due to the customer reading an article in a Hot Rod magazine the night before, the labor (and parts sometimes) turns into more cost to the customer. Sometimes not a problem if its minor, but I need to go back and do the revision. This takes more time, but I'm still working with the customer's up front money so its not a problem. It does put the next customer on the build sheet back a little more, but thats life. I also work similar to Don & Pat. When I sit down with a customer to go over his or her project and get an idea of what they are looking for, I can pretty much give them an "educated guess" or an approx. total cost value of the project as it was discussed at that time. As with all projects, being the one doing the work, you never know what you may run into during the rebuild, so the "quote" is just what it is. A quote. If the project cost was around 25K, I normally would take 10K up front to start the project. This gets parts ordered and underway, and starts to pay me for my labor as I record the hours I have in the build from start to finish. When I get down to say 1K, I notifiy the customer and let him or her know I need more money to keep the project going. If a problem arises during the project, and the project has to be put on hold or pulled out of the shop, at least my services and money spent on parts are covered. Its a win-win for both the customer and myself. If the project never comes back to the shop due to circumstances that arrived in the customer's life, I don't have to chase that customer for the balance owed. Its a CYA for both of us and the friendship and comrodery remain as they did right from jump street I had that happen a couple times where the customer got into finantial problems during a build and had to sell the project. I even sold one project for a customer that hit financial troubles. About 5 years later, he bounced back financially, and hired me to build another project for him. That project went along fine, came out beautiful, and I believe he still has it yet. So things can work out well sometimes...... mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B |
Posted By: BobHnwO
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 9:11am
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Steve is right on,I owned and operated an Auto Parts and Repair business for 11 years and then building and remodeling business for 29 years,you have to be careful with finances all the time or your out of business!!
------------- Why do today what you can put off til tomorrow. |
Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 10:09am
| If you look at this from the prospective of the customer, you would have to be a very trusting soul. I am glad you guys are honest and it all works out for you, and everyone does business different, but from my view as the customer of a project with the senerio you point out I would walk. Here is why, your going to build a car for me for $25,000 and you want half up front so I give you my car (with a value) and $12,500 now 3 months later you say you have all money used up and need more, are the hours I am being billed for really the hours worked ,or did the vendor get hard up for money paid his mortgage etc with my cash and now just needs more from the cash cow? Or your into my car my $12,500 is gone I give you another $12,500 and the car is still not finished now I am painted into a corner do I walk with my half finished car and the 25 grand loss and go to another shop to finish it or do I say well I got to give you more to get the car done so I get it back completed??? I am not saying thats what you guys are doing, but that is what Okie was doing by the sound of it and its ripe for abuse, and that was the exact senerio that was played on me with the roof, you get into the project and you keep feeding it money to get completed because the vendor has already started it and he already has your money. If your getting paid in 3rds like the plumber does everyone is safe. I got burned with this up front money so my advise will stay the same NEVER give money up front, which by the way is the same advise the sheriff dept gave me and my lawyer with the same exact reasoning I gave earlier , if the company doesnt have the funds to do your job they are not solvent and shouldnt be trusted. Which I do not believe is accurate in your case, I have no reason to think your both not trust worthy, but I still wouldnt pay you up front, a deposit I would understand, but thats as far as I would go, personally. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 07 Oct 2011 at 8:05am
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I can only speak for myself in this situation, and I see your point clearly, but as my customer's come into my shop to give me another payment, I walk them around their project, & show them exactly what's getting done. It's the customer's responsibility also to keep abreast of what he or she is having done on their project. After all, it's YOUR money your spending with me, and you should know where your money is going! Not assume where its going. In the case of my shop, the time card speaks for itself after the customer has been shown how his or her project is moving along. There usually isn't any question on time because I go over and through the project with the customer so he or she has a good understanding of what and how things are done and why it was done a certain or particular way. The customer also kept abreast with a punch list of the parts used and the pricing of those parts on the list. I can also make them a copy of that punch list for their records as the project continues even thought they will get the invoicing of all parts n' labor at the finish of the project. Its all about one on one with the customer, and keeping the customer abreast of whats taken place. As I mentioned earlier, its also the customer's responsibilty to keep track of their project also. If there is any doubt to my time being overly applied, I'll stop the project myself and give the customer the option to stop the project and take it outta' the shop. I then move on to the next customer's project. I've never had that happen. From all the stories I've heard about Bob, and who he fleased, he surely was not running his so called business the way I run mine. It takes a loooong looong time to build a good reputation. It only takes one customer to get burned. Bad news travels fast! Unfortunately, in the case here with some of our Orange family, it didn't travel fast enough or wasn't heeded..... mailto:mine.....Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
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Posted By: WC7610
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2011 at 12:59pm
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Sorry to hear this and the levels some of these people stoop....I had a similar experience with a scumbag from Hanover, KS about 10 years ago. I do have to put in a good word for the law though. The guy filed bankruptcy, but the Kansas Attorney General went after him for fraud since it was across state lines. Took several years but I did get my $$ back and my equipment I had bought from him (he had also sold same equipment to 2 other people).
Thank you for posting as I remember Okie from the old forum and had wondered what happened to him as he used to be a daily poster. ------------- Thanks Most Bad Government has grown out of Too Much Government- Thomas Jefferson |