Sustainable Farming
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Topic: Sustainable Farming
Posted By: AllisUpstate
Subject: Sustainable Farming
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:02pm
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This post is probably going to be pretty controversial, and perhaps should be in the Political section, but I think it belongs in the mainstream, and my intent is certainly not to tweek anyone. I am just asking a stupid question. How many of us have migrated over to more sustainable farming practices? As I am slowly bringing our 130 acre farm back (but only 50 acres in crops), I am not looking for total organic certification, but I am looking to be doing it in a sustainable, responsible way. I look forward 100 years or so, when petroleum will be extinct, and I also look backwards 100 years, when our great-grandfathers sustainted the soil fertility with thoughtful crop rotations. How are others approaching this? |
Replies:
Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:13pm
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Sustainability is the capacity to endure. Orgainic isn't sustainable.
More people means more food, less land means more yields per acre needed. Fields treated with fertilizer, herbicide and pesticide reduce crop loss and increase yield. Fertilizer, in some cases, such as some produce, also means more vitamins and minerals in your product. Thats sustainable in feeding the human race. Sustainable doesn't mean using just chemicals, and it doesn't just mean planting and harvesting. You do have to introduce things such as crop rotation and natural fertilizers into the ground and you have to pay attention to everything, but you also have to think about farmland preservation, and building up instead of out. You can't expect everything to just work out. It's not just putting a seed in the ground and watching it grow like some of these environmentalists think. Good, high producing farmland isn't always going to be there if things keep going the way they are going. Thats my opinion on the matter, in a nutshell. |
Posted By: junkman
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:19pm
| My two cents; The only way to go. i could see how large scale operations could find this difficult, but as a small time grower this is what I do. I grow organic but don't care to be certified, but my brother is not but worked in his cover crop of rye two days ago. Many a farmer around here has started using turkey and chicken litter for fertilizer and I say many. |
Posted By: Rfdeere
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:28pm
Oil will not be extinct in 100 years, may not be able to afford it, but there is no supply shortage. ------------- Randy Freshour,Member Indiana AC Partners, http://www.rumelyallis.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.rumelyallis.com |
AllisUpstate wrote:Posted By: AllisUpstate
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:38pm
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RfDeere, No offense, but yes, oil will almost certainly be extinct within 100 years. China, India, and Africa have 10X our population, and are just now entering the 20th Century. South America is ahead of the curve, and are almost self-sufficient with their sustainable energy production. Most analysts agree that the US is already way past its peak petroleum prodution. 100 years is still a long ways away. I would be amazed (if I were still alive) that our Nation, and the World, is still running on Petroleum 100 years from now. If you disagree, just pick another number - however, we can all agree that there is just so much oil in the ground, and we better start figuring out how we are going to go about business once it does run out. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:54pm
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I wish I had the opportunity to bring the Old Home Place back. Dad worked till I was 8 years out of High School and that was one of the worst times to try to start farming. He also never had enough ground to support a family of 3 by the 70's. I don't think any of my 7 brothers or sisters ever wanted to run the farm although my oldest sister married a dairy farmer. After Dad passed, the majority opinion was to sell the tillable land so, unless I win the lottery soon, I won't have my retirement farm dream come true. I always thought it would be great to divide the 20 acres by the barn into 4 sections and seed rye to one patch for fallow pasture, and rotate crops like Dad did, corn, oats, hay, fallow. I seriously doubt that fossil fuels will be extinct in a hundred years. With prices going up, I think some will actually try to conserve. That won't start with the single person driving their SUV at 85 down the Interstate until speed limits are enforced at $100 for every mile you are over the limit. Higher prices will also make extraction of some of the untouched deposits in North America feasible. Can't we just go to WalMart and get all we need? ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 7:54pm
If your going to ask for our opinion, fine. If your going to turn this into a debate and bash our beliefs, opinions, or facts, take it to the political forum. That's just something I won't stand for in this section. If you ask for an opinion then respect the opinions you get, even if you don't agree with them. Even if "oil" "runs out" (which it won't in our lifetime), there is still Natural Gas. With the new formations we are tapping into now, we have enough natural gas to last us an unknowingly large number of years. We in the United States sit on more Natural Gas as the middle east sits on oil. It's cleaner, cheaper, and readily available for use. Vehicles are very easily converted.
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Posted By: abbaschild95
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:01pm
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i agree with morton all the way! sustainability in the long run means higher production per acre. At the current rate were doing very well! we just need to maintain sound practices, which most farmers in my area practice yearly, and maintain our growth and we will feed a growing population. people say that agriculture is a dying industry that will be taken over promptly by huge corperations but i tend to believe that the "small farmers" are just going to have to grow. the days of 150 acre farms are over. Besides, isnt farming a career? why not get bigger? (as long as you care care for each acre) whats the worst thing that will happen besides making more money? ------------- Great-granfather's WC---- hopefully many more to come! |
Posted By: junkman
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:04pm
| I guess I could add that whatever I do or however I farm there will be a orange machine doing it. And you can take that two cents to the bank. |
Posted By: abbaschild95
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:10pm
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well junkman, thats fine... but theres a reason its not still prominent. i love orange as much as the next guy, but its out dated and there are more efficient machines out there. its not sustainable. ------------- Great-granfather's WC---- hopefully many more to come! |
Posted By: AllisUpstate
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:13pm
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morton, This is exactly the reason I suggested posting it in the Political section, although it doesn't belong there. This is not politics - it is about how we each approach giving the land to our children in decent shape, so they can continue to farm like we did. No offense, but Petroleum absolutely, certainly, won't be around 500 years from now. So pick a number. How do we intend to feed a world of 10 billion +, many years from now, when oil is just a memory - and at some point, simple math says it must be? That is my question. |
Posted By: junkman
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:30pm
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I guess I should state that my farming arrangements are very small. Mainly grow for family and farmers market. yes there are more efficient machines out there to get the job done, but they usually fetch several more dollars then a old orange machine. I guess you could take into account the fuel saved and the like over the years and justify the higher cost will be payed back in the long run, but when you don't have the money in the first place (poor hillbilly) you make do with what you can, kind of like are parents and grand parents did. And in some cases had to. |
Posted By: KevinON
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 8:32pm
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When I decided to farm about six years ago, conventional growers were losing money on corn and beans in this area, so i went the organic route. Conventional prices are higher now, but I won't turn back. It would be much easier to farm conventionally, but now that I have learned how to farm organically, and my yeilds are increasing year after year, I am going to stick with it. I sell most of my product locally, and intend to process some of my own grain as well.
As far as for feeding the world, we don't need higher yields. A fellow that toured the former Soviet Union once told me if they could ever get their act together, they could produce more grains and oilseeds than we could ever imagine.
I am also finding it gratifying that I am not tied to the chemical and seed giants, padding their pockets!
Just my two cents!
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Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 9:19pm
Then there is the large expansive untapped rich land in Africa. How would I get started with organic? If I have to pay a couple hundred dollars to attend an all day class or 2 days then it ain't gonna happen for me. It's what has been holding me back and it seems that the first few years will be aweful lean until the land is all certified. I can't afford to do that. I guess I come off negative but I don't want to be. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: AllisUpstate
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 9:28pm
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Lonn, Nobody said Organic. I asked about Sustainablility. Meaning, I would think, how would we imagine the World say, 1.000 years from now? The Iriqouis Indians used to make basic decisions based on the impact on about their next 7 generations. Assuming an arbitrary number of 30-40 years per "generation", can we project our current farming practices out to 250 years or so? If we are on the right track, I would think we certainly could - no problem. |
Posted By: abbaschild95
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 9:36pm
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i like that idea about the indians... hmmm... i personally think we are on track. ------------- Great-granfather's WC---- hopefully many more to come! |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 12 May 2011 at 11:12pm
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There are a lot of problems trying to figure out where things will be in 100 years, let alone 7 generations (about 300 years). Where was civilization in 1711?? How could anyone back then envision internal combustion engines, let alone airplanes or computers. Who knows what marvelous science will be around in 2311 (maybe "Beam me up Scotty" won't be science fiction). To me, sustainably is paying your bills this year with a good chance of being able to pay them 10 years from now. Sustainability also means taking care of the land. The farm I grew up on is in better condition today than it was 50 years ago despite the use of "artificial" fertilizer and other chemicals. When oil or current fertilizer becomes too expensive, alternatives will be developed. If they're not, there will be a lot less people on this earth. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 12:52am
| been kinda doing tat for bouts 30 years! haven't bout any commercial fertilizers for about 30 years, use extra residue and manure. still raise good crops! 200 plus bu. on some of my ground. other poor ground is getting better, but takes time! i have 5 manure spreaders that i have placed at several locations, sometimes i haul it, sometimes the customer hauls/spreads it for me. they are getting rid of it and i profit getting it! i have a waiting list, all i have to do is buy more spreaders! another thing to ponder...look at how much of this world...is sand! and they keep taking the good productive land out for strip malls,housing, parking, large malls, roads, ect! i say....build all that stuff on the sand. and leave to good ground alone to feed us! |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 5:54am
As you can see by my quoting KevinON I was addressing him. He mentioned organic and I asked him about it. As to the Indians, as they had no modern farming practices it's hard to imagine that after being exposed to more modern farming practices they would have said no and I would bet there are modern Indian farmers today. I'm not against sustainable farming at all and in fact I agree with finding sustainable practices. Just pointing out that if we all lived like the Indians did 500 years ago there wouldn't be many of us here today because we would have had to bury most of our own children before they were 5 years old and if that weren't true then we would be living in our own excrement by now as the Indians weren't really all that earth friendly as we are lead to believe. There just weren't enough of them to pollute the entire globe. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: se iowa picker
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 6:16am
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Sustainable farming is the only way the small farmer can make it anymore. Most of us cant compete with high input and high rent and land prices.I farm because I love to farm,I farm with orange cause that was the closest dealer and they are good machinery. As for the new machinery its to expensive plain and simple.The fact of not being tied to the chemical companies is a plus to me.As far as feeding the world I feel its time for the world to start helping itself a little bit and stop depending on us to hold its hand.Any time you can farm without chemicals its gonna be better in the long run for everyone. |
Posted By: dave63
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 6:18am
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Anything that you use more of than what is produced will get all. Oil will some day run out.
What would it take to produce farm products with out oil? Harvest the methane from animal waste use it for generators to power grain handleing,milking,etc.
methane is much like natural gas why can't this be converted into liquidfied natural gas and run farm equipment?
maybe this is just a dreem or could it be the evalution of sustainability? ------------- The universal answer to all questions is yes, how much do you want to spend? |
Posted By: KevinON
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 6:37am
| Although I am completely organic, to satisfy the market I sell to, I do agree with sustainable farming practices too. I have many people laugh at me, and say that I can't feed the world, and so on, but all that I am doing is filling a market that wants my crops grown the way that I do. I find it rewarding to be able to increase yields in an organic system year after year. It challenges the mind! Anyone can grow a crop with chemicals, as long as they can read a label, or listen to a crop advisor, but not all people can grow a decent crop using sustainable practices. I do know of some organic growers in Ontario, that are growing crops with yields VERY close to that of their conventional neighbours. |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 7:07am
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For sustainability you need to get big enough to get a large enough government subsidy to sustain! ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: ky wonder
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 7:25am
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time and men will change, the way we farm, as it has, will change,
all any of us can do, is the best we can, to protect what we have
My farm in ky that we call the lonesome hollow farm, has seen many changes through out the last 240, years. no one has lived there since the time of the civil war, because by then the ground was mined out and poor.
230 years ago it was the scene of much game, including the eastern buffalo migration route, it was indian hunting grounds shared by many different tribes from as far south as alabama, (the creeks), and as far north as new york ( the Iraqois) the name kentucky is derived from an Iraqois word.
while some of the original long hunters where here before the american revolution, most of the settlers of this area were veterans of the revolution, taking up grants for their service.
think of all the changes that have taken place in agriculture over the last 230 years, so many of the original settlers would start a farm and after mining the soil for a few years they would move on to other productive ground, leaving the original farm land barren after using up all the nutrient is the soil.
sixty years ago these farms where maned by familes, that had the small machinery we love now, and the advent of fertilizers helped them produce the food that it took to feed the world. many do not realize how bad the 2nd world war was on european agriculture, they had food rationing back then in europe and without the grain that our fathers produced many would have starved to death, after the war.
todays farms and machinery is massive compared to even 40 years ago, less farmers bigger farms
this old farm has seen all of that history, and for the past 10 years i have tried to keep it in woodland and grass and let it be a 450 acre game reserve, where the wildlife all except the buffalo and elk have returned, and i have given thought to reintroducing those.
we as a state have had great success in reintroducing the elk to the eastern part of the state and as i watch the annual harvest reports they are moving closer each year, the black bear is making a acomeback also in ky.
while i never envision myself putting in large crops on the farm again, i do plant about 20 acres every year as food plots for the abundent, whitetail and turkey population that it now supports, which game i do harvest, for both food and sport.
so in a way you can say the farm has made a complete circle in the past 230 years, but i keep a old tractor or two in case i decide i need to farm it again.
fertilize and nutireint replenishment is good for the land, i dont care what anyone esle might think ------------- i like old tractors of all colors |
Posted By: bill2260
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 7:38am
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Sustainable farming practices is extensions new fangled term for being profitable. Most are aware of this without their university extension service wich has become outdated. Their only true practice today is to remain on the state payroll at any cost to producers.
AS far as allis chalmers tractors being non efficient. Buy your 150 plus horse pwoer tracter to keep your farm sustainable. You need to be a computor expert to keep the damn thing running. Paying for it is another matter. Many situations this big fancy tractor is impossble to sustain let alone keep the farm profitable. My granddad would probably roll over in his grave to see an 8030 on my 193 acre farm. But I tell you what. In 1982 this tractor was not possible to purchase and support. Now it is payed for in full and I am enjoying the heck out of it. A comparable new JD would break the bank and would soon be the end. AC Does have it's place in sustainable agricultue. Who ever says it does not, will be soon working in another profession. Sustainabililty is the capacity to endure! |
Posted By: Byron WC in SW Wi
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 2:30pm
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I'm not organic and not even close. Although I think it's a decent practice most organic people think they're better than everyone else and I don't like that. I also don't like all the paper work. Having said that, I've done cover crops before and intend on making them part of my rotation. I recently bought a liquid manure spreader so I could spread my septic tank. Manure is liquid Gold around here so you gotta make your own and I'm working on it. I think that it's "sustainable" to grow your own fuel crop, (soybeans or canola for SVO/biodiesel), and sell or use the byproduct for feed. I think cover crops are sustainable but some years they don't work out like last year when I couldn't get the corn off till Spring because it was too wet. |
Posted By: SHAMELESS
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 5:13pm
| i read last night in the paper...that natural gas companies are going to cities and counties meetings, trying to get them to change their vehicles over to natural gas!....well 40 some years ago, a neighboring county/city did run natural gas in their police vehs and school buses. they had to quit in the buses, as if they went out of town for games or field trips, they couldn't refuel anywhere to get back home. the police quit because it was a pain in the butt, and had to keep training officers the safe ways of refueling! and they had to have a gas or diesel veh for out of town use too! as there was no where to refuel outside of their jurisdiction! since then, i have never seen anywhere where there is a fuel station for natural gas! they spent alot of money for that back then, had no resale until it was all converted back! then still had no resale! they didn't get that good of milage either! i guess when the fuels run low, everyone will panic, then the only ones able to get what's left over will be govt and railroads! the farms will get shut off first, then the trucking industry, then the public! the oil barons will live elsewhere for fear of their lives! |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 14 May 2011 at 8:54am
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After the "fuel crisis" in 1973 there were a lot of pickups and motorhomes converted to LP that could be switched from LP to gasoline. Gas "shortage" was over and LP use stopped. |
Posted By: KevinON
Date Posted: 14 May 2011 at 9:52am
| Hey Byron, it's ironic you say that organic growers in your area think that they are better than the rest, because around here, we are sometimes not even considered farmers! |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 14 May 2011 at 10:23am
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Abbaschild95 -
" i love orange as much as the next guy, but its out dated and there are more efficient machines out there. its not sustainable."
I just spent 9+ hours on a C, mowing heavy grass on one tank of gas. Yes, I was really sore when I was done! I have never had a tractor that could do this before, it was amazing...
------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Leesok
Date Posted: 14 May 2011 at 8:03pm
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I have ground and mixed feed for 60 cows for the last four years with a 37 uc with rear steel. Can operate all controls from the ground without climbing in and out of a cab. Has always started on 3 or 4 pull without being plugged in like newer tractors. Have not bought tires, battery. starter or ect. Usually takes about 40 to 50 gal fuel per year, stays hooked up except to go to local show to pull threasher. These old tractors still have their places on the farm you just have to find it. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 14 May 2011 at 9:12pm
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I just read an ad for a "green Machine " that burns 11 gallons of desiel and hour.
I can run for hours with the D-15 on half that amount. Bob
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 9:50am
I used to run a Green tractor for a guy that burned 10 gallons an hour too but I can guarantee you that you won't pull a 17 1/2 foot chisel plow through 10 acres of stalks in an hour with your D15. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 10:50am
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The problem with the original post is that there are too many definitions of sustainable. and no official definition. To me it means feeding as many people a complete meal on as few acres as possible with as few petroleum inputs as possible. Yes we run fuel in our tractors/gator/and truck. but no petro chemical fertilizers/pesticides etc. I grew up on the family's 170 acre 6th generation farm. It has been every type of farm over the years and in the 70's my parents planted grapes and started a winery in 81. Now the winery is in it's 30th year and my wife and I have started a produce business and are in the process of certifying 25 acres Organic for the veggies. One thing that is constantly brought up that bugs me is "how are we gonna feed the world without higher yield per acre" Food is not 1000000 acres of cow corn. or 100000 acres of wheat. Food is 2-10 acres of mixed veggies, and specialty grains. which is the exact role for an allis G and an all crop. Ideally you need 3-4 plots with a 3-4 year rotation. 1 year veg crops, 1 year grain crops, 1 year fallow/grazing, and 1 year green manures.. That is what we are setting up for our small business. We feed dozens of families on a handful of acres via the farmer's market. One thing about certified organic, is it is alot of paperwork, but it really isn't bad. And it does require learning, and it does cost some $ but you make it back quickly Also the 3 year transition period is very do-able.. You don't have to transition your whole farm at once. The whole concept of certifying organic is completely ass-backwards. You should have to pay and keep tons of records to USE chemical poisions and artificial fertilizers. Being organic should not be a thing that requires certification... Once the soil is healthy, the crops are healthy. My dad is the perfect example of a "conventional" farmer. He said when we started doing veg crops in the old hay field "that should be very good soil, we've been putting ammonium nitrate on it every year for 30 years" And my wife and I looked at each other shaking our heads.. The soil was compacted, the organic matter was low, the calcium was low, all the nutrients were low... the PH was low.. etc.. 2 years later, the OM. is up, the nutrients are balanced, the PH is up and we've greatly reduced the compaction.. I actually sunk the 2 bottom mold-board plow almost out of sight last week. The first time I worked the soil it only went about 3-4 inches down! Adding chemical fertilizer to soil is like raising a kid on pepsi alone.. Sure he'll have tons of energy right after you apply it, but it will be gone in a short time and you'll be worse off than when you started. I use cow manure from a local dairy, that I compost myself with a big front loader to turn it. and I mix in all the grape pummace from the winery.. This is obviously not do-able for everyone but our soil was in really rough shape when we started... Now there is certified chicken compost available and many other options in our area. So we are slowly becoming sustainable in as many ways as we can. The main thing is to source your food LOCALLY and as sustainably as possible. That is the definition of homeland security. Jonathan ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 1:05pm
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Natural gas is mostly methane. The demand for natural gas has been rising rapidly because it burns fairly clean and is used for power plants as well as for home and industrial heating. Its a pain to compress it to liquid to get a decent range from a vehicle though there is much NG compressed to liquid and shipped by tanker from Australia to China. Methane can be created by decomposing crop residue mixed with manure and is. It takes a large scale facility to make it totally practical (e.g. cheaper than buying fuel), and is being done on some of the larger diary farms. Its also a product of covered land fills, again it takes larger scale to make it useful but some landfills in the Chicago area have been collecting methane for years and using it to run engines turning generators to produce the power needed to process garbage into the land fill and to have a little left over to sell. Remember organic farming was defined by Robert Rodale, without benefit of input from science, regulators, or engineers. The principles of organic farming ignore the facts that things coming from the ground (like directly mined phosphate rock) require acids or acidic soil to show a crop benefit and the factory acid processing is quite effective at cleaning out things like heavy metals that are not a benefit when added to the soil. There is much use of manure anywhere there are confinement facilities for turkeys, chickens, pigs, and cattle. I can see piles of composted turkey manure around here in the spring and see the honey wagons delivering hog manure liquid spring and fall. There is some compaction in the fields from those 125,000 pound tractor and honey wagon assemblies and there is much more water than nutrient. There is much discussion over on New AG Talk (the best farm page) about cover crops, strip till, and no till all of which save on fuel use and often lead to better crop production on any scale. One of the participants, Steve Groff, is known around the world for use of cover crops. Commercial agriculture is not static, it is changing all the time driven by demands (its demand and some speculation that is driving high commodity prices this year), and high input costs. No farmer that I know is blindly doing the same as last year because the costs of seed, herbicides, insecticides, fuel, and fertilizer are going up like crop prices, sometimes much faster than crop prices. And no one sells the whole crop at the highest price we spread out those sales because the only way to know a peak has occurred is after the fall from that peak. I have 3/4 my anticipated 2011 crop sold, for a peak price of $6.10 for corn but an average price of 5.10. I'll make out fine. There has been a discussion on New AG Talk about sustainability but the first step has not been resolved, that of defining what sustainability is. Then events like spring floods come along and destroy big chunks of needed prime farm land (as well as urban sprawl) making it harder to keep up the total crop production the world wants. In the past, solutions for overpopulation of territories have been major wars, with the most overpopulated countries attacking their neighbors to get control of more land. Its been a longer period of major war since WW2 than ever before in history. Maybe its because of the devistation that could be caused by a nuclear blast that keeps those desiring more land in check, maybe its the relative prosperity much of the world is enjoying even with the recent market collapses. If wars don't cut population growth, and population growth overtakes technology for better crops and overruns crop lands, then starvation can control population growth. I'm not so sure the under developed lands of Africa are rich, I suspect they have been farmed over the millenia without putting back fertilizer until they need a couple tons of N, P, and K per acre to grow significant crops yet the politicians are rejecting outside knowledge, finances, and materials (like fertilizer and modern seed). To say nothing of the need for organic material in the soil. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 1:08pm
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Local food production is a fine concept, but north of the Mason - Dixon line we have winters, and sometimes cold springs that definitely inhibit the growth of all crops. Garden crops tend to not store well for long periods, at least not tomatoes, lettuce, and the like. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 2:29pm
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"Local food production is a fine concept, but north of the Mason - Dixon line we have winters, and sometimes cold springs that definitely inhibit the growth of all crops. Garden crops tend to not store well for long periods, at least not tomatoes, lettuce, and the like."
Gerald, no offense, but you are just regurgitating the same stuff that is not even close to correct.
I Live in upstate NY, I eat about 95% locally year round. We obviously buy things like sugar, olive oil, citrus etc.. that we don't grow. But 99% of our fruits and veggies we either grow ourselves or buy from other local farmers within a 20 +- mile radius.
And it is not hard to do it ourselves. We grow chiccories year round, We are still eating last year's kale. We have been enjoying popcorn and polenta from our own corn. We bought a whole pig from a fellow market farmer, we bought half a cow from my highschool Ag. teacher (2 miles away) we raise our own broiler chickens and sell them, and we have 4 chickens at home from whom we get eggs year round.
My wife cans piles of tomatos we have root veggies from mid summer through spring, garlic, hell I still have a few crates of onions in the cooler and winter squash in the back room!
yes you can't grow icerberg lettuce year round in upstate NY, but who eats that stuff anyway? It has no flavor and virtually no nutritive value.
You need to read the book "Four Seasons Harvest" by Elliot Coleman, He farms year round in Maine.
Jonathan ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |
Posted By: indiana2door
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 4:34pm
| There are two kinds of crazy...horse and organic. |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 8:25pm
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wow a nonsensical statement that lacks any sort of fact, reference or bearing on anything. Thanks for adding. Jonathan Ps I do agree with you on horses... :) ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 8:30pm
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BTW people survived north of the mason dixon line for hundreds of thousands of years before sysco and mcdonalds. Also the term "conventional" that describes farming with synthetic pesticides, is actually the NEW method of "farming" and Organic is actually the form that has been around since the dawn of man ;) Just food for thought... Jonathan ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 9:35pm
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Jonathan- I don't think Gerald was saying that one couldn't preserve summertime harvest for wintertime consumption- My ancestory founded a town a hundred miles northwest of Gerald, and survived just fine doing the same sort of canning and preservation I do, and I'm sure Gerald does it too. I think what he's saying, is that it's asking a bit too much to expect sensible production capacity of cash crops from land that's frozen down 48". My greenhouse can grow quite a bit, but some things just won't produce well when the seasonal extremes (sunlight hours included here) are that far out. There's good reason why the California farms, even with miserable produce taste, are still profitable... because tasteless sliced tomatoes are better than no sliced tomatoes. But I'll echo the request for clarification on the definition of 'sustainable'. The term is so vaguely applied to many things, that the definition needs not only to be drawn out, but also identified as to where, how, and to what extent, 'unsustainable' is occuring. Clearly, the California gardens are a good example of how incredibly beaten soil can continue to 'produce'... and they just keep doing it... much to the detriment of taste and nutrient level, as well as drawing down the Colorado River. Seems to me, the whole reference to 'unsustainable' comes from people who focus on one part of the world, and little, if any, of the rest. If a purist formula for 'sustainable' is necessary, I can hack it down to a very simple level: ALL the energy that the earth has... regardless of it's form, is the result of solar radiation. To be purely 'sustainable', one must establish a DAILY budget based on the maximum amount of SOLAR ENERGY that they can 'capture' PER DAY. Anything beyond that, by definition, would be 'unsustainable'. I think that's a bit extreme, but SOMEBODY has to play the Devil's Advocate here. |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 15 May 2011 at 11:01pm
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Frankley "sustainable" means something different to everyone. Some would say breaking the prairie sod and farming the same land continously, and profitably, for over a hundred years and several generations is proof enough that what they're are doing is sustainable.
To some, poking a hole in the ground with a stick and dropping a seed in it by hand is the only sustainable way to farm. To another, farming the maximum number of acres with the least possible labor and the lowest cost per bushel modern technology allows is the only sustainable way to farm.
I think history has shown us that low costs and high yields win the sustainable contest. The problem is how you arrive there isn't just one easy answer.
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Posted By: AllisUpstate
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 6:26am
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I agree that Sustainable as a term means different things to different people, as opposed to Organic. The fascinating thing to me about farming is how deeply complex an operation it really is. Around us, too many farm the same way I saw growing up as a kid, which is essentially to sterlize the soil and rely almost totally on synthetic fertilizer and herbicides for production. On the hilly land upstate here, that production method can be a disaster in terms of erosion. Also, costs are totally dependent on the costs of petroleum and the profits of the large agro companies supplying the input materials. The result is a loss of independence, both individually as a farmer and nationally. It is sustainable only as long as the world has cheap petroleum or other energy sources, and the soil isn't totally washed away. My eyes have been opened over the past 10 years or so as I have read all the books I could find, and finally start to understand how soils and plants truly work, as an incredibly complex living synergism between fungi, bacteria and the the plants. To me, understanding how that natural system works would allow me to harness that energy to build a farm that would continue to thrive despite the price of oil. Granted, operating the farm machinery requires oil - which eventually we should be able to provide using biomass and perhaps direct solar conversion to liquid fuels - but the real energy hogs on a farm are not the tractors, but the synthetic fertilizers and chemicals. So sustainable to me at least, means trying to better understand the natural systems, so that I can reduce energy inputs from off the farm, and improve the soil health and reduce erosion, such that I could imagine the farm becoming more productive and independent each generation, rather than less. It doesn't have to mean a purist definition of Organic, but it does mean bending the curve away from Monsanto and Sysco, and more towards understanding and harnessing the natural systems on the farm. For me at least, Sustainability is almost synonymous with Independence. Our beloved Allis tractors and equipment relate to this thread, as really well-designed equipment, that can be restored and continue to provide the same service as their original design, almost indefinitely with proper care. They represent recognizing excellent design and build and utilizing it, rather than throwing something away just because newer, more expensive technology is out there. |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 7:15am
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Hey Allisupstate: where in upstate NY are you? I'm on keuka Lake.. but I'm heading over to a NOFA NY meeting and field walk in the Ithaca/trumansburg area TODAY starting at noon..
https://www.nofany.org/events/field-days/early-late-and-four-season-production-using-season-extension-effectively-increase - https://www.nofany.org/events/field-days/early-late-and-four-season-production-using-season-extension-effectively-increase -
If you are not too far away, it's like $15 if you aren't a nofa member..
hth Jonathan ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |
Posted By: D17JIM
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 8:45am
| I see a lot of news and talk on organic production. If we can work it out so the Billions that live in NY and Chicago and LA and many others can have stored organic foods year round then it might work. Of course the manure needed will have to come from organic livestock farms or we may not have the manure since we will no longer be eating meat (what many want us to do). That would take another total cultural change. I have a daughter in Seattle and went with her to the open market (very Large) and saw only one organic produce booth. Not a pretty sight compared to the others. I know they are not all that way but it turned us off at least that day. There is a lot to work out before this is the only way we farm. It's a lot easier to at at the local level than world wide. Good luck !! (and I mean that seriously) |
Posted By: Italy Hill Produce
Date Posted: 17 May 2011 at 9:32am
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I think there are too many issues to address in one thread, There are too many interesting directions to take this in.
As far as sustainability is concerned You have to state what type you are shooting for..
If all you care about is being financially sustainable then you have to specify if you mean with or without subsidies.. Because if you ask me, If you farm 10,000 acres of corn and soybeans on the increadibly fertile soil in Iowa, but you can't make money without subsidies (See the documentary "King Corn") then you aren't financially sustainable.
If you mean sustainable in the petro chemical form, then you have way more work ahead of you, because you can do many things to cut your dependance, but that all depends on how dedicated you are.. Yesterday we visited a farm that uses horses for tillage and they had to give in and buy plastic wrapped high tunnels, which was a hit to their petro sustainability, but they had no option because they had to first achieve financial sustainability..
We are not THAT dedicated to the petrolium sustainability, IE I drive a chevy truck, my wife has a TDI jetta, Yes it uses regular diesel, but it gets 50+ MPG.. I would love it if GM/ford/dodge etc.. Would offer more than one diesel engine.. I want a half ton truck with a small diesel engine (something comperable in power to the 4.8L V8) So that instead of having a 6.6L duramax, with ungodly torq, and 15-18 MPG Perhaps I could have something with adequate power to haul the truck and my produce around that maybe gets 20-30MPG Right now the only option is a sprinter, and they don't make them with 4X4 and an open bed..
OK getting off topic..
We use plastic mulch and drip tape in our organic veggies. BUT we don't use any synthetic fertilizer or pesticides.. Our natural enemy populations are HUGE and our soil fertility (both the living and non-living components) are thriving.. Which makes the plants VERY resistant to many diseases and pests.. And more importantly the vitamin and nutrient content of our veggies are far better than that of conventional ones.. Not to mention we add things to the soil to improve the flavor even more.. Did you know that tomatoes actually TASTE better when you add a small amount of sea salt to the soil?
Jonathan ------------- G tractor and an All Crop 66 Also Kubota MX5100F and M9540HD12 |