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wc pullin engine

Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21630
Printed Date: 28 Sep 2024 at 8:45am
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Topic: wc pullin engine
Posted By: dharpo
Subject: wc pullin engine
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 7:30pm
 BUILT A 4.5"  bORE X 6" STROKE WITH 9" RODS 2" INTAKES 1.75" EXHAUSTS 500 LIFT CAM. i CAN PULL 3RD. GEAR WITH 16.9X38 R/TIRES ON A 37 WC. DOES THIS ENGINE COMBINATION NEED A LITTLE TWEAKING TO GET MORE POWER? (I.E. VALVE SIZE) rpm. 2000. i dont have an engine program. just came up with this combination out of thin air. any help will be appreciated.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC



Replies:
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 7:45pm
i posted some calcs? are you making 180 to 200hp?

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 7:57pm
i dont have a clue. i'm a little thick sometimes! i didnt understand the calculations. does that mean i need bigger intake and or exhaust? also im runnin a 1" piston height which leaves 1/2" combustion chamber. got about 300p.s.i. cranking pressure.  the head is flat and piston top is too.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:13pm
also i'm runnin a button clutch with a 9 spring pressure plate. springs are a lot stronger than stock.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:17pm
         120 HP AT 2,000 RPM.


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:29pm
dharpo you from sprigfield? valves are plenty big enough. 120 hp is a good reliable build for the 262 gas rod. how thick is your deckplate?

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:36pm
not springfield but i do pull there. rods are homemade 283 chevy bottom welded to 350 chevy pin end.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:38pm
yeah i knew they were custom made being 9 inches long . how thick is the deck plate

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:44pm
no deck plate. .060" copper gasket.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:48pm

Just for kicks, my rods are 9.1"  Came from a Perkins diesel, 9" to start with and then plugged the pin end and re bored.  Have to look for sure but I think 2.25" crankpin IIRC.

I made a twin disc clutch in my WC,
I made a steel flywhel, similar to the original.  The ring gear placement is in the original location, the dish is deeper and the flywheel is just a bit longer.  Inside I made a .400 thick floater plate keyed into the flywheel on 4 tabs.  THe clutch discs are very similar to OEM, just a bit thinner and solid hubs.  I trimmed the hubs a bit, the nose cone of the starter needed a bit of trimming and the throw out berring carrier needed just a bit of machining.
 
My engine isn't a real torque monster so typicaly  tighten things up, spin it about 4500 RPM, on the line and let it come up from there.  Once in a while if I run 3rd gear or knowing it's going to be a real hard pulling short run, I'd hold out for 6000 rpm before getting to far downrange.
 
What kind of groundspeed do you fella's get with these big engines in typical going 4500 lb classes?


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:59pm

I take it the welded rods are just fine?  Just today I made a jig to use the 226 Allis rods with 350 chevy wide beam rod tops, I cut the top off the Allis rod, cut the top with a stub of the chev. rod and made plugs to hold each end and a means of centering things and locking them in place for welding and boxing.  They are going to be 8.5" long when done, or maybe a bit just either side depending on some other factors to hold some 4.125" bore automotive pistons with a .928 pin.  No strokeing, just a little 240 inch engine with a bit of a cam, some head manifold and carb work and I haven't nailed down the comp. yet, somewhere around 9 to 1, for a pump gas, 4 mph class, something that's "dad proof" so he can have a little fun and we don't have but a few hundred bucks above the cost of an overhaul kit in the engine, and can run augers, rake some hay or fill in on some light farm work.  It's one of those classes where 75 hp will win, 100 will get you kicked out so hopefully this will make in the high 60's or low 70's for HP

Summit has a good selection of pistons, found some Selaed Power hyperutectics that are 1.425 comp hite, -12.5cc for about $27 each, a new set of rings and some new sleves for the Allis.  I maybe should have used a little taller one and a little shorter rod, but it's done now
 
I've welded and boxed rods for guys in the past in some high compression high speed engines and they have alwayse been fine.


Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 9:00pm
i don't run outlaw classes where rpms are unlimited. i pull in 4,6,8,12mph classes. plus, i wouldn't want to spin such a long arm much more than 2000. i'm a poor man and want it to last. i,m averaging 4 years between builds.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 9:09pm
mine has a short crank which is the only reason it stays alive, once in a while depending on the conditions it'll stay above 6000 for most of the run, but that's uncommon most of the time 4200-5600 with peak power around 4500, and not much below 3000 .  There's some uncommon methods to get it breathing, once I bottle fed it, but never messed with it anymore .


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 6:17am
A 9 inch rod with a 6 inch crank is 12 inches  a .60 thosuandths head gasket is .710 thousandths of space left for a piston and no room for a combustion chamber with a allis head . I think theys some  leg pulling if you know what i mean? just mathematically dont work out. 9 inch rod 3 inches for a six inch stroke = 12 inches a 1 inch compression height piston is 13 inches and the block isnt that tall with the head gasket of .060 thick. like about 1/4 a inch being that tall. how does running the piston outside the block work ?

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 6:44am
I smell something kinda funny...............

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sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?"


Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 9:16am
C'mon,he said he was a little thick sometimes.


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 9:26am
I was figureing it was around 11 to 1 comp with an 8 inch rod...... 


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by wi50 wi50 wrote:

I was figureing it was around 11 to 1 comp with an 8 inch rod...... 
  4.5 stroke 4.125 bore 8 inch rod 1.425 piston with 12.5 cc dish 5.1 cr .981 thousandths below deck with .042 compressed gasket.  8.5 long rod is 8.7.1 cr

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 5:02pm
I was refering to the original poster with the 9" rod, 4.5 bore and 6" crank, 1" piston and .5 deck, .060 gasket.
 
Those numbers didn't add up but if it's a typo and an 8 inch rod, we get around 11 to 1.  I've alwayse used 12.65-12.66 for a deck height on the blocks, but then the .5" below deck doesn't figure out in the original post either.
 
 
I shot for an even 9 to 1 in my little engine, 8.52 rod, valves make a little positive volume in the head, small plug pocket flared just a bit and just figureing a .045 gasket.  Hopefully gives room for another cheap and common piston if one ever wants to up the comp, or if one ever bores the block and runs a larger bore to keep the comp within reason


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by wi50 wi50 wrote:

I was refering to the original poster with the 9" rod, 4.5 bore and 6" crank, 1" piston and .5 deck, .060 gasket.
 
Those numbers didn't add up but if it's a typo and an 8 inch rod, we get around 11 to 1.  I've alwayse used 12.65-12.66 for a deck height on the blocks, but then the .5" below deck doesn't figure out in the original post either.
 
 
I shot for an even 9 to 1 in my little engine, 8.52 rod, valves make a little positive volume in the head, small plug pocket flared just a bit and just figureing a .045 gasket.  Hopefully gives room for another cheap and common piston if one ever wants to up the comp, or if one ever bores the block and runs a larger bore to keep the comp within reason
i come up with 9.57.1 on   a 8 inch rod 6 inch stroke 4.5 bore with a 1 comp. height piston no reliefs  . I use 12.656 for deck height 8+3+1=12   leaves piston .698 below deck with a .042 gasket . IF it were mine it would have a bbc promod flattop with a 1.27 comp height on a 8 inch rod with a 6 inch stroke  and a  .040 top low tension ring package  but its not mine. quote burger king you build it your way.  he could be real talented and cut two blocks and welded them together to get a 13 plus inch deck without a deck plate . its possible  that theys a allis running around with a cowl hood.

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 11:30pm
sorry about all the confusion fellas fat fingers got me !!! its an 8" rod. weisco flat top bbc pistons

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:08am
Originally posted by dharpo dharpo wrote:

sorry about all the confusion fellas fat fingers got me !!! its an 8" rod. weisco flat top bbc pistons
Either fat fingered the 1 inch compression height or the .500 bellow deck as well  .

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 10:33am
ever heard of millin the block? don't be so picky. I was just wantin a few suggestions if i was onto a good combination or not. thanks for the info so far it has really helped.

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 11:40am
Originally posted by dharpo dharpo wrote:

ever heard of millin the block? don't be so picky. I was just wantin a few suggestions if i was onto a good combination or not. thanks for the info so far it has really helped.
I am not being picky . I  may have been reading something into it . Such as testing me as to if I knew something about the engine or just play with computer simulations. Reason I got to thinking that way is information  you provided was sparce and some what misleading.  So I was thinking the asking for thoughts on your build and ways of improving it if any was half hearted at best. Shame on me for thinking that way . Yes I deck blocks usually .010 to .030 not ever .100 to  .200

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 3:57pm
I was messing around looking at youtube, there's a WC video there  "allis pulling at luck wisconsin"  kind of a neat tractor.  If I knew how to post links I'd put it here


Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 4:04pm
hey guys let me back up and rephrase the original question. i"m building another engine 4.5x6 its a gleaner motor. before I"m committed to the valve size I was wonderin if there was an optimum size to use?

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by dharpo dharpo wrote:

hey guys let me back up and rephrase the original question. i"m building another engine 4.5x6 its a gleaner motor. before I"m committed to the valve size I was wonderin if there was an optimum size to use?
I myself like the 1.94 and opening the head and intake up so its the choke point with the smallest valve stem you can buy . computer likes a 1.8 intake for 3000 and under rpms. cant and want argue that . I happen to like software it makes my life easier. If my cam was a single pattern cam with a lot of lift on the exhaust I wouldn't exceed a 1.6 exhaust valve if my exhaust manifolds not my choke point. If i was running a tubed header that scavenged well with a single pattern high lift cam 1.5 exhaust valve would stay with allot  smaller  valve stem .
Your calculated Intake Valve Diameter is 1.79 inches .
Your Valve to Bore ratio is 0.40 .
< value=Calculate =submit name=submit>  

          
VALVE / BORE Ratio 

The valve to bore ratio should be:
52-52.5% of the bore for Wedge heads. 
53-53.5% for Canted valve, rotated canted valve (Mopar P/S hemi) and true Hemi. 
If you decrease intake exhaust ratio down to 70-71% you can move both intake and 
exhaust valves over to the exhaust side and increase intake valve size by .5-1%. 



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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: dharpo
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 4:27pm
THANK YOU so very much

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AS LONG AS THERE ARE SHADE TREES I CAN BE CALLED A MECHANIC


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 6:05pm
your welcome , i like seeing orange tractors out front.

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: Allis Fields
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:09pm
 His name is Rod  ? . I met him at the Rice Lake Wi. pull and he had that tractor at the Hutchinson pull.


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:50pm

 What size would one want the runner bored to for a 1.94 valve in an engine like above?  I've sonic tested a few different heads but it seams that a 1.65" runner is getting twards the end of things for holding water and being durable. 

 
  I don't have any computer programs, just a few books, calculator and some junk shop equipment.  My head on the high speed engine is a total different mess with 2.1 runners, with a v to eliminate reverberation. We made the billet roller rockers, and I had to make the rocker shaft with supports on the ends, L shaped posts that were held down by the end head bolts.  Without them the end rocker arms would bend the shaft up once in a while if it wound to hard.
 
I set up the head for the little 240 inch, low speed engine I'm working on, I bored the runners to 1.55 and quit, still debateing if I should go more, or leave it where it is.  I have not ordered valves yet, still kicking around what size to run.


Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:54pm
hey allis fields,
I used to pull with Rod, still talk to him now and then.  I went to Hutchinson a few times.  Life has taken over and business is good, not much time anymore to get out.
 
You ever see the little WC "gone ballistic"?


Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 9:02pm
it takes a tub of belzona supermetal 111 .  the 1.8 works but i have had to plug the thin spots before .  the best way is to cut a head into sections open it up contuor everything with bondo smooth it flow it get it where you want it. then mirror image the work to the head you want to run with the belzona smooth to get the numbers . bondos easier to work for the trial and errors.  once we are done we add water and silicon glass under 14 psi of pressure for a number of days untill we have no seapage . the bad  frequencys have more affect on long rods . Bad flowing heads can be helped with short rods. long rod ratios always need excellent flowing heads unfortunately tractor heads just dont do it without boost.

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people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra



Posted By: Pa.Pete
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by wi50 wi50 wrote:

I was messing around looking at youtube, there's a WC video there  "allis pulling at luck wisconsin"  kind of a neat tractor.  If I knew how to post links I'd put it here
Is this it. --  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9wzSEEVGws - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9wzSEEVGws


Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 9:55pm
I bought some parts from that gentleman, but don't remember his name. His place is North of Mpls/St Paul. The WC was in his shop, and looked like it could pull the building down. I believe he's at the swap meet at Le Seuer, MN every year.

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"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they
are genuine." - Mark Twain



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