Tearing apart my 1944 Allis C
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20943
Printed Date: 13 Feb 2025 at 1:02am
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Topic: Tearing apart my 1944 Allis C
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Subject: Tearing apart my 1944 Allis C
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:10am
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I am going to take apart the engine (in frame, I hope) of my C next week. I have no compression in cylinders 2, 3, or 4. I have never tried such a major project on my tractors before and know there are lots of things to consider. Unfortunately, I won't know exactly what is wrong until I open it up. I took the Valve cover off and spun the engine, and the valves, while loose, seem to be operating correctly, which leads me to think that maybe all I have to do is check the sleeves and replace the rings on the pistons. i will also have to replace the front Cam Gear as the exploding governor also broke a couple of teeth on it. It is a wide front C or a B/C FrankenAllis. I can find evidence to support either, but the engine on the front does not have a spot for a pedestal and has the B wishbone front. I am unable to see the engine serial number because of the paint, and the fact that as long as it ran, I really didn't care...In light of the above, I ordered the 3 7/16 rings for the tractor, if they are not the right size, I have 4 other tractors, 3 of which ar B's that they should fit.
I really don't want to make this into a huge winter project, but I would like all of you to give me some feedback as to what else I might be forgetting/in for, as I start this?
It does have Hydraulics and and L306 Woods Deck on it that I will have to take off.
I will be posting before, during and after pictures for everyone's pleasure :-)
Thanks in Advance,
Miles ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Replies:
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:19am
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You might just have valve problems. The head is easy to pull. The front engine cover does not have dowel pins to locate it properly. If the cover is not centered correctly, the front crank seal will probably leak. According to the manual there is a special tool that goes in place of the seal to center the cover, then you install a new seal. When I overhauled my CA engine, when I ran into the needing the special tool, I installed the new seal in the cover and then stood the engineup on the flywheel and let the new seal position the cover. 15 years later, it has not leaked a drop. You got to pull the front steering off to remove the cover, from there it's only 4 bolts that hold the engine to the torque tube. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:55am
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The steering is set up low like a B, it was sold to me as being a B, at the time, I knew just enough about Allis Chalmers tractors to be dangerous... lol. Would I still need to remove the steering? It looks like I could just leave it on there and pull the front cover after removing the radiator, etc... ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:06am
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Miles, I was wondering what had become of you and the sick tractor. I'm also thinking it is a valve timing problem as you mentioned the teeth broke on the cam gear. It would be easier to pull off the steering arm at one end or the other so you can get the front end out of the way. Are you working on it here or in KS? I might be able to give you a hand if it's in Colorado. As for the rings, I'd check the head/valve timing first and if that's the problem, check the piston gap/cylinder condition before putting more time and money into it. That is if it ran ok before and didn't burn oil. My 3 cents! P.S. You should come by and see my "new" B. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:18am
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John, it's in KS... seemed it would be cheaper to work on it there, and I have more room to work... It ran OK before I blew up the governor, I put a new governor on it and then put the spark plug wires on 1234 instead of 1243 and started it... once I figured out what I had done, I changed the wires. It then ran but sounded like it was only running on 1 cylinder... and oil was blowing out of the exhaust. If I put any load on it, other than just moving it, it would die. When I checked compression, I had great compression on no. 1 and no compression on 2, 3, or 4. ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:18am
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You might as well get in your mind and make plans to remove the engine. If you have teeth gone on the camshaft gear it probly skipped a tooth or two and that would cause you not to have compression because of valves being open on the compression stroke. The camshaft gear is pressed on and will have to be pulled to remove the gear. Not having the engine will upside down while pulling the camshaft woud take eight hands where there is only room for one reaching up from the bottom to hold the tappets/lifters up out of the way while moving the camshaft forward.
Your rings and valves (could be fine) with the stripped camshaft gear. If they werre not a problem before the governor gave out they should not be a problem now. A good time to check everything while it is open though.
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Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:22am
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OR I could just spend 600.00 and buy another C that runs... lol ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:42am
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There you go Miles! One can never have too many tractors, especially if they're AC's. I agree with DickL on pulling the engine but perhaps you should just pull the head and see what everything looks like. If you aren't real attached to that tractor it might make sense to just sell if without the mower and put the mower on another of your fleet or as you suggest, buy another C. If you do repair your C at least you will know the condition of the engine and if the rest of the tractor is good, you still have a fairly inexpensive tractor. And think of all the new experiences you will get by working on the engine! I have several swear words I can pass along that I learned while stationed in Greece and Germany, although your lady friend probably knows the German ones. LOL ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:55am
| Removing the engine is not a big deal. It is a lot easier with an engine lift but if you have a jack, blocking along with a rope and pulley you can get it done. The engine is not all that heavy. Well it might be if you would only weigh a hundred pounds or so. Or 72 like I am now. I useta lift one of those engines from one bench to another. |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:26pm
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Would you suggest a cherry picker or one that I can bolt the engine on, I guess if I'm into it as far as I am looking at, I just as well do it all... I know it has never had the power that my "new" 48 has off the trailer... how would it lose compression in 3 of the 4 cylinders if I was able to get it started when I timed it after I replaced the governor? At that point I hadn't done anything except replace the governor and time it. ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:27pm
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And John... I know those words too... also in Dutch! lol ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: David Gibson (OH)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:29pm
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I've used a loader tractor to split the enigine from the torque tube. A good engine stand will make things a lot easier. ------------- David Gibson http://www.darkecountysteam.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.darkecountysteam.com 1956 WD45 |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 3:12pm
The way I do it.
  You can go to http://www.fotki.com/DickL - www.fotki.com/DickL and look around. A lot of how to pictures.
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Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 3:44pm
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Thank you Dick! those really help! ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 9:28pm
| Unless your engine was rebuilt, it will have 3 3/8" pistons in it. I find it's best to tear something apartr before I order parts. That way I can see what I have and what I will need, My book shows 2 different ring sets for the CE125 engine. Bob |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 12:56am
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If you find you don't have a use for the rings, I have a project they will fit. For pulling the engine, if you have a strong beam in the ceiling of your shop/barn, you can use a chain fall (Harbor Freight has fairly cheap ones) While you're there, buy an engine stand so you can work on it easier and turn it over to pull the cam. When you timed it, I think you just timed the ignition. With broken teeth on the cam gear, the timing is going to be off on the valves so they are open when they should be closed. The engine is one of the easiest engines to work on, much simpler then even an old car and kind of fun to work on. You will need a torque wrench when reassembling the head. Don't worry, there is plenty of free advice on this site to steer you in the right direction. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:53am
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Update...
I opened iit up last week and replaced parts as well as timed the valves. I replaced the timing gear and checked the valves by hand cranking to make sure they all opened and closed correctly. After I got it all back together, I still had no compression in cylinders 2, 3 and 4. Starting Friday, I will be spliting the Tractor and really pulling the engine apart... I did not remove the head last time, just replaced the timing gear and put the parts back together. Does anyone know why I would get good compression in number one cylinder (25-27 psi) and no compression at all in the other three?
I believe the engine has been worked on before and rings were replaced when I got the engine unstuck. ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:09am
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25 psi is way down from "good" compression on #1. A really bad head gasket connecting 2, 3, and 4 could keep them from showing compression. Or a really badly cracked head. Gerald J. |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:09pm
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Thanks Gerald. I will be checking the head when I open the engine up, and I have a replacement head to use if I need too... or the whole engine if necessary... hope that's not the case though... I only have one engine stand! lol...
------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:20pm
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I'm with Gerald on this one. Sounds pretty severe to have zero compression on 3 and almost that on the 4th. Have you set the valve lash? Set too tight, and you will got no compression. Make sure the rockers are letting the valves fully close. Back them off a bit and take a reading again.
I'm a bit confused. How did you replace rings without pulling the head (maybe I'm just reading it wrong).
JimD ------------- Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543 |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:45pm
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Jim,
First, thank you for the parts I got from you a couple of weeks ago.
The rings were replaced by a mechanic when I took it in to have it unstuck, that was about a year ago... I have not changed the rings personally... I guess I wasn't very clear on that point.
Also, the extra engine I have is a 116 ci engine and wouldn't work on the C very well... :-( ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:49pm
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I have not set the valve lash, nor have I touched the valves other than to set the valve clearance... ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: DREAM
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 5:37pm
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The 116 engine will work fine. My C has a 116 CI distillate(low compression) engine from an early B in it, and I brush hog, disc, cultivate, and wil be trying a 2 bottom plow soon. Granted, it doesn't have the power that my dad's C with the correct engine does, but it hasn't bogged down yet, even brush hogging in thick grass and getting into the soft stuff with the disc, it still has power to spare. It will spin out before stalling. Just my 2 cents. If you have a "good" engine, it would be cheap to put that in there. ------------- I didn't do it! It was a short, fat, tall, skinny guy that looked like me! |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 1:12am
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Miles, a good engine should have at least 100 PSI of compression. Something is really wrong and I still think it has to do with the valves or valve timing. Come by sometime and see my "new" B with an adjustable wishbone front axle. Got to get it unstuck too. Finished with farmers markets for the year, now I can work on important stuff! ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Thad in AR.
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 5:57am
| Miles if I have read this post correctly I think you have a head or timing problem not rings. I'd do like Jim D says and back the valves off and try again. How did you change the timing gear? Is there a chance he bent valves (interference engine) with the valve timing off? I don't think it would even start on 25 lbs. compresson. |
Posted By: Gary in Texas
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 7:51am
| going to have to do it anyway, pull the rocker shaft off, then run a compression check. That way you should have all of the valves closed. Look to see if the valve stems look to be close to the same height and listen for air blowing out the exhaust / intake while cranking the engine. |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 9:41am
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Thad - Yes, I am sure I have a timing problem... what started this whole thing was an exploding governor that took the teeth off the middle timing gear and caused everything to go out of whack when it allowed the cam to skip a couple of those teeth. Somewhere I have a video of the tractor running after I replaced the governor, but before I knew about the missing teeth on the timing gear. It was only running on number one and blowing oil out the other three. Probably really screwed it up, but I don't think anything is bent internally, as I am still able to hand crank the engine. ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:12am
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Compression test won't work without opening the intake valves. Gotta start the compression stroke with a full cylinder of air. There could very well be bent valves in all cylinders from bad cam shaft timing and pistons striking valves, then they won't close tight and seal. Some engines have enough space pistons and valves won't collide, most modern engines don't. I don't know about the C. Gerald J. |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:39am
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I don't think the 125 head lets the valve that far into the cylinder, there is quite a chamber up top. (Unless you really shaved the head).... Dick L. could probably tell us the particulars, as he has messed with these heads a whole lotta different ways though. Just my opinion, never measured it for sure... |
Posted By: sks72107
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:41am
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When i first got my d17, i ran a compression check. one cylinder had 0psi. Pulled the head to find it had dropped a valve seat, perhaps the c doesnt have seats, idk. But my tractor also had blown govenor weights, which in turn; bent 4 push rods, broke teeth on 2 gears, busted bottom lip on front cover, bottom end of motor chewed most of this up requiring a replacement crank. So rebuild it totally once, and rebuild it right.
Shannon
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Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 12:02pm
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I did pull parts of the governor and other rather large pieces of metal out of the oil pan when I took it off. I did get the gear teeth from the part I replaced out of there. There didn't seem like there was any problem with the oil pump as I was getting oil to the rockers when I cranked the engine. Guess I will be taking lots of pictures and have lots of questions really soon!
As Pumpkin Man said in another post... I just need to get started and see what I find...
But that won't be until Friday ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 12:25am
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Miles, Did you get the head off and see what there is to see? Just gotta know!
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Brad MI
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 4:57am
| I would take the head off to check valves and pushrods before I did anything else. If I understand correct you've got the cam gear timing resolved so I see no reason to believe there's anything wrong with the bottom end at this point. If there is a problem with the bottom end get an engine stand and pull the engine. |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 8:28am
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John, I'm still in Denver and haven't left yet. I'm getting some heaters together so I can work on it out in the shed and hopefullly fix it without having to remove it from the tractor. If I have to remove it, then I have been told I can bring it inside the house! ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 8:43am
| Best two places in the house is in the center of the dining room table where you have plenty of room on all sides to lay parts and tools. There you can move around all sides to better see all the problems. The other place is with the engine on an engine stand in front of your recliner where you can lean back and watch TV while you are thinking about the next move. Just make sure you have a sturdy stand on both sides of the recliner to hold the tool box and parts and large free turning wheels on the engine stand so you can push it to one side when watching th TV. Also easir for the wife to clean up the droppins from the rug. |
Posted By: Bee
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 8:49am
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I sorta like the kitchen table that way I don't have to walk too far to put the parts in the dishwasher.
------------- Bob, North Carolina 1949 B |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 8:53am
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Based on what you just said, Dick, I'd put Dixie on the same level as Mother Theresa! ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Bob D. (La)
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 8:56am
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Youll also be close to the oven to dry parts if you put it on the kitchen table.
Not to worry Miles, we won't get you in too much trouble. LOL ------------- When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2010 at 11:19am
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And if you decide you need a snack, what better place to be than the kitchen?
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 12:05am
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Miles, It never ceases to amaze me as to how helpful the members of this forum are! I had never even thought about using the kitchen, and I'm single! (Perhaps that is why!) Anyway, have fun, where ever you do the work. I pulled the head on my B this evening, took all of half an hour. Spent another hour cleaning the dirt and wasp nest out of the cylinders. Maybe it didn't have spark plugs in it for 20 years or so. Two cylinders don't look too bad the middle two are about 1" down from TDC and are a bit rusty. Haven't been able to drive them down. May pull the pan and rod caps and try one at a time. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 10:26am
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Those rusty cylinders will be easier on the rods, crank, and block if you take off the rod caps and pull sleeves too, then go to the hydraulic press, but figure on having to replace or remachine parts. Gerald J. |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 1:26pm
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I'm actually going to put plastic down and then a canvas tarp to catch all the drippings, I use my laptop computer with a wireless connection to watch TV so I can move it around easier than the engine on the stand. My only problem is the off-sized front door that I have to get the engine stand through. ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 1:28pm
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John, have you tried just putting the 50/50 ATF/Acetone mix on top of the rusty cylinders and just letting it sit? ------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 9:47pm
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Miles, I tried the mix a couple years ago on the all-crop engine and it didn't work, at least not yet. I'll probably pull the head on that one sometime and check it out. The exhust has aways been covered and it had been stored inside until I got it. I suspect it is tight from sitting since at least 1983, when the owner passed away. My plan for the B and C is to pull the best cylinder out of the B and put it in the C and get an engine kit for the B. The B is rare in that it has a adjustable wishbone front end and the C has a single wheel front end. I also have another C which I have misplaced the rods and pistons during a move. It will be a parts source for the other C and B. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2010 at 9:48pm
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P.S. Have you gotten into your engine yet? ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |