wiring temp 50amp camper hookup
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Shops, Barns, Varmints, and Trucks
Forum Description: anything you want to talk about except politics
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=203973
Printed Date: 22 Nov 2024 at 7:37pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: wiring temp 50amp camper hookup
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Subject: wiring temp 50amp camper hookup
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 2:08pm
|
What's the deal with everything requiring 2 hots, a ground and a neutral. Back in the old days 2 hots and a ground which connected to the neutral/ground in the box sufficed. I read somewhere they required the neutral and ground be isolated from each other in the box. Around here everything has neutral and ground connected to each other in the box and supposed to use the bonding screw. I know just enough to get in trouble. I'm sure there's a reason for everything but I don't understand it all. Education appreciated.
|
Replies:
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 2:47pm
ya know just enough to get in trouble: CALL AN ELECTRICIAN!!! That's why places have codes, because to many @!!&&$% rigged something that caused an issue.
-------------
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 3:33pm
Codes change as the ideas of safety become known .
Use to be range wire used a outside jacket for the neutral kind of wrapped around hot leads , and covered with insulated covering .
As this depended on this to also serve as neutral when one lead was tapped for 110 a load could change on one leg . So a parallel load of 220 on the 2 legs , so adding a neutral wire , but now needing a separate ground or the actual cabinet or fixture could carry voltage .
So the 4th wire grounds the full system . One can see other code changes Ground Fault breakers or circuit protection , Arc Fault for bedrooms and other areas where someone might run wires or extensions under rugs or other covered areas .
Yes neutral and ground are bonded to panel - and a wire is run to a grounding source , but yet from transformer of power company a 3 wire is run to building , and from transformer only 2 wires are run a hot and neutral wire for supply .
-------------
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 3:34pm
|
Thanks Paul! Not what I was asking but consider the source....
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 3:52pm
|
Steve... the deal is the RV plug is really TWO 120v plugs ... each has a HOT, neutral and ground. They SHARE the neutral and ground, with their own HOT wire.. If you hae the neutral and ground connected together, and something goes wrong, you may not have a GROUNDED system... Not that big of a deal on the welder or dryer... but COULD be a big deal on an RV that travels around..
I just added an RV plug on the sons garage for him...Outside wall... What you are SUPPOSE to do is have 4 wires on the plug, run out the back and 3 go into your Breaker box... the GROUND goes down below the plug and connects to a COPPER GROUND ROD... so it is seperate from the Neutral... You "COULD" run into the brreaker box and ground to the Neutral / Ground strap, but "SOME" of the new campers look for a .5 volt DIFFERENTIAL between the Ground and Neutral.. and if you connect the TOGETHER the camper will not see the differential and will NOT power up...
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 5:56pm
|
Thanks Steve and Coke. Went and looked at camper and it has a 50A 3 prong male twist lock receptical in the wall. Owners in process of moving and cord is somewhere.... so I don't know if other end is the 4 prong plug that plugs into "camper" receptical or what. Still gatherinr info.
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 6:09pm
Sounds like your 'Male Twist Lock" is like the style used for Marine.
If you look close at the Male Plug, you will see that it has a small metal knose that makes contact inside the female receptacle to a metal surface and becomes the 4th wire, the ground.
G
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 6:18pm
|
Gary I believe you are correct. I noticed a metal strip on one side in the "hole" and online they refer to "marine" type plugs for RV extensions.
|
Posted By: JW in MO
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 6:22pm
Many years ago as a beginner electrician I had to run power to a new typesetting machine for a small newspaper. I combined the neutral and ground and when we turned it on, the screen displayed gibberish and wouldn't stop scrolling. One call to the manufacture and I then pulled another wire and all was good. With today's computerized electronics requiring clean power, it's a necessity to separate the ground and neutral.
-------------
Maximum use of available resources!
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 6:50pm
What you mentioned
"Back in the old days 2 hots and a ground which connected to the neutral/ground in the box sufficed "
held true back then AND STILL HOLDS TRUE TODAY.
That's because, as any electrician would know, the wiring connection you describe is a 220 volt connection to a single device, like an Air Compressor or an Arc Welder.
The 50 amp RV connection is two separate 50 amp circuits wrapped together in a flexible weather proof covering, and supplying power to a split / separate 50 amp Panel in the RV. Each circuit in the RV has its own Breaker.
Gary
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 7:05pm
just like the PLUGS in your house... 60 years ago they were TWO PRONG.. No GROUND... still works, but no safety... Having an EXTRA wire for the GROUND, not connected to the WHITE wire is a good idea.... but will it work without ??? Probably... until something happens !!
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 5:22am
|
Under normal conditions, the Neutral is always intended to to be a current carrying conductor.
The Ground is never intended to carry current unless something goes wrong, i.e. it is a safety device.
|
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 6:17am
gee, decades ago my 'remote energy control systems' USED the 'ground ( Mother earth) TO carry current. Doing this allowed us to communicate about 15 MILES on one single copper wire AND have a the ability to know WHERE that wire was cut or shorted. It was also hacker proof, unlike every other means today. Could also tell when the Don river was low. If the FEDS hadn't put the screws to us, I would have been a multimillionaire. Sigh, I miss the old days.
-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 8:49am
|
Best I can tell the ground is to be connected to a ground rod driven next to outlet. The neutral goes back to the neutral in the feed box. Feed the 50A service with a 60A breaker? Near 100ft using 6-6-8 copper.
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 10:00am
YEP... that would be PERFECT !!
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 1:04pm
Seems if you have a second panel like in your shop and garage it use to be you could run 3 wires , then install a ground rod at the 2nd panel .
Now code requires a 4th wire and only ONE GROUND Source at main panel - idea is system could depend on secondary grounding device at sub panel instead of ground on main .
Reminds me of neighbor who obtained power company under ground aluminum wire single conductor with aluminum wrapped braided shield over insulation - ran those 2 wires to his shop - said one was the ground - other was neutral - called it 4 wire
-------------
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2024 at 12:59pm
|
After reading Steve's report again about his install it made sense and did as he with the ground rod buy the pedestal. 2 hots and a neutral in the breaker box and it works like a champ. Thanks all.
|
Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 1:34am
|
Ground needs to go to the panel. Ground rod is for lightning, not to trip a ground fault.
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 7:54am
When I built my SHOP back in 2015 with a 100 amp Sub Panel, I installed a Ground Rod like Steve stated.
When the licensed electrician came to connect up the Sub Panel and saw the
Ground Rod, it wasn't Perfect, it was WRONG.
As I recall he removed the Ground Tab inside the Panel and connected the Ground Wire from the Feed to the Panel Ground Bar.
Same as what Coke has stated.
G
|
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 9:22am
|
so went for a walk... 'everyone' says ONE ground, at the main panel but.... up here, north of the 49th... the transformer on the pole's neutral IS grounded. my main panel is 100+feet away from that 1st ground.
kinda wondering what the diff is when a subpanel(say in garage) is grounded ?
-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 9:26am
use to ground everything at each panel and run 3 wires between them... "NEW CODE" is to only ground the MAIN and the subpanels are not suppose to be grounded..... but 90% of everything in the Country is PRIOR to that.( like COKE said above)... There is a REASON to not ground the sub... but many still do it... I ALWAYS ground everything... and i ALWAYS strap the Neutral to the Ground lug terminals in the breaker boxes.
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: Dakota Dave
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 4:29pm
|
If its temparary they already make a 50 amp RV plug that plugs into two standard 110 outlets. The two outlets need to be on seperat circuts snd you wiil pop a breaker if you yry running both AC units a d the micro wave together but you can run one AC and everything else.
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2024 at 5:56pm
|
just for some odd information... Today i took a 100 ft extension cord and plugged into the garage and walked out into the middle of the driveway about 50 ft from the house and power pole... It had rained a little earlier so the ground was damp.. The driveway is gravel CA6.... I took my volt meter and stuck one probe 3/4 inch into the gravel driveway and put the other lead into the HOT side of the extension cord... I measured 124 v from HOT to the wet ground... not even a ground ROD, just the probe of my meter.
NORMAL flow of current out of your electrical box is thru the WHITE NEUTRAL wire ... but if something goes wrong with that, then the BARE wire or GROUND wire will take the flow ... Can be a real wire or can be ground rod in the earth as my test above...
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 6:19am
|
not that 'odd' really.. I used that for decades on my remote energy control systems, could get reliable communications for 15 miles. The line receiver could even tell if the river was high or low, spring or late summer.
check the pole/transformer wiring, odds are the neutral there is grounded. "The primary and secondary neutral is jumpered, and the grounding
conductor is run down the pole to a rod or butt coil at the base of the
pole. Most utilities will do this at each and every span."
-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2024 at 12:45pm
Here is a Link to the 'Facts' - straight from the Horses Mouth.
NFPA 70 (National Fire Protection Association Code 70)
which evolves to be the NEC (National Electrical Code)
The National Electrical Code (NEC) has several requirements for grounding in a 100 amp "Sub Panel", including:
Separate neutral and equipment grounding termination bars.
Sub-panels must have separate bars to isolate the grounded conductors' neutrals from the equipment grounding conductors and metal cabinet.
No Main Bonding Jumper.
The green Main Bonding Jumper (MBJ) should not be installed in a sub-panel.
No bonding of grounded conductor and equipment grounding conductors
Bonding these conductors together in a sub-panel is a common mistake and can create a significant hazard. This is known as a bootleg ground and is prohibited by the NEC.
Link to total NEC 250.32(B)(1)
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&sca_esv=7e818a552f6284eb&sxsrf=ADLYWIL3smwuRj6MZn0znyCcJJ3-brZJTQ%3A1731434890023&ei=ipkzZ-KIAZLSp84PiZzL2QE&ved=0ahUKEwji9cjMsdeJAxUS6ckDHQnOMhsQ4dUDCA8&oq=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiOHdoYXQgaXMgTkVDIHJlbGF0aW5nIHRvIEdyb3VuZGluZyBpbiBhIDEwMCBhbXAgc3ViIHBhbmVsMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAkiunQVQ_hRYiLUEcAF4AZABAJgBvAGgAY9FqgEENS42MrgBDMgBAPgBAZgCNKAC7znCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgYQABgHGB7CAgYQABgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIEECMYJ8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIOEAAYgAQYkQIYsQMYigXCAgoQABiABBgUGIcCwgIKEAAYgAQYsQMYCsICBxAAGIAEGArCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGAoYHsICCBAAGBYYHhgPwgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcEMi41MKAH2_gC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&sca_esv=7e818a552f6284eb&sxsrf=ADLYWIL3smwuRj6MZn0znyCcJJ3-brZJTQ%3A1731434890023&ei=ipkzZ-KIAZLSp84PiZzL2QE&ved=0ahUKEwji9cjMsdeJAxUS6ckDHQnOMhsQ4dUDCA8&oq=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiOHdoYXQgaXMgTkVDIHJlbGF0aW5nIHRvIEdyb3VuZGluZyBpbiBhIDEwMCBhbXAgc3ViIHBhbmVsMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAkiunQVQ_hRYiLUEcAF4AZABAJgBvAGgAY9FqgEENS42MrgBDMgBAPgBAZgCNKAC7znCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgYQABgHGB7CAgYQABgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIEECMYJ8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIOEAAYgAQYkQIYsQMYigXCAgoQABiABBgUGIcCwgIKEAAYgAQYsQMYCsICBxAAGIAEGArCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGAoYHsICCBAAGBYYHhgPwgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcEMi41MKAH2_gC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2024 at 4:06pm
|
most Govt Agencies and "GROUPS" exist to make Continous Random Rules to Justify their EXISTANCE....
Check ANY POWER PLANT and 90% of BUSINESS in the US and they BOND at EVERY PANEL.... Random rules for residential keeps these groups in business making $$$ for THEMSELVES.
--------------- The National Electrical Code (NEC) has several requirements for grounding in a 100 amp sub panel, including:
----------
So does this apply to a 50- 60 amp Panel ? How about a 90 amp panel... is there any DIFFERENCE ?? ..... Many SMALLER subpanels have a COMMON neutral / ground..
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 12:26am
Posted: 7 hours 8 minutes ago at 5:06pm
most Govt Agencies and "GROUPS" exist to make Continuous Random Rules to Justify their EXISTANCE....
.......................................................................
Stevie your head is sure in the clouds on this one!
How did you come to the conclusion that the NEC is a Gov't. Agency.
.......................................................................
The NFPA (Fire Codes) the NEC (Electrical Codes) NPC (National Plumbing Codes)
the IBC (Int. Bldg. Codes) are all Associations that exist for the Safety
of the People. They each maintain the minimum requirements for their individual
Trades. The Federal Gov't plays no part in any of them.
..................................................................
Check ANY POWER PLANT and 90% of BUSINESS in the US and they BOND at EVERY PANEL.... Random rules for residential keeps these groups in business making $$$ for THEMSELVES. ????????????????????????????????//
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''.
In Canada there are 2 Entities that play a part in the Electricity that comes to your house.
The Generating Plant that produces the Electricity, and the Work Force and Mechanical Structures that delivers the electricity to the Meter on the side of your house.
From the Meter on all components belong to the Bldg. owner.
From that point on the NEC Codes apply and the Electrical must meet the Codes and pass an inspection before it can be activated.
---------------
The National Electrical Code (NEC) has several requirements for grounding in a 100 amp sub panel, including:
----------
So does this apply to a 50- 60 amp Panel ? How about a 90 amp panel... is there any DIFFERENCE ?? OF COURSE NOT -SELF EXPLANATORY
.............................................................................
No bonding of grounded conductors
Bonding the grounded conductor and equipment grounding conductors is a common mistake that can be dangerous. This is known as a bootleg ground and is
PROHIBITED by the NEC.
..... Many SMALLER subpanels have a COMMON neutral / ground..
Any New Installations and probably any installations being reinspected would have to meet the New Code.
..........................................................................
Edited by steve(ill) - 7 hours 5 minutes ago at 5:09pm
|
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 5:21pm
|
I'm simple....please explain the danger from bonded neutral and ground
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 5:30pm
|
I was trained 50 years ago by a Senior Electrician that "YOU CANT HAVE TOO MANY GROUND"..... and the OP installed a 50 AMP PANEL... that is not covered in your "100 amp subs must have..."..... and his "50 amp sub panel" has a GROUND ROD... so that makes it NO DIFFERENT than the MAIN BOX that is fed from the POWER POLE by 3 wires and has A GROUND ROD...
and i NEVER said the NEC was "GOVT" agency.. I said GOVT and OTHER GROUPS that exist to make RULES AND REGULATIONS... most that are NOT NEEDED.... How many houses were built BEFORE THE NEC "bonding" regulation and remain that way.. WITHOUT any safety problems..
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 5:56pm
|
From the Meter on all components belong to the Bldg. owner.
From that point on the NEC Codes apply and the Electrical must meet the Codes and pass an inspection before it can be activated.
GOOGLE....
The NEC is not a law, but it's often mandated by local or state law. Most states adopt the most recent version of the NEC within a few years of its publication. However, jurisdictions can add their own requirements, modify sections, or omit them
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 8:03pm
|
re: please explain the danger from bonded neutral and ground
from what I've been led to believe....
The 'idea' is that IF the neutral wire is broken 'somewhere' between the 'main' panel and the 'sub' panel, then Mother Earth will be the 'neutral' wire and carry a lot of current
It seems 'someone'( probably a committee) decided neutral and ground must only be connected( bonded) at the main panel. Apparently they've never looked at the actual wiring of the power transformer on the pole outside the house.
As far as 3 letters making rules that must be obeyed....look up their rules for ARC fault breakers in Ontario. supposedly they are the 'best' breaker YET over a dozen ways to NOT have to install them.....
-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
Posted By: Gary
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 8:30pm
For those of you that are interested in how the NEC Association functions -
in particular how Old Codes get updated, and NEW Codes get created -
see the attached Link:
The National Electrical Code (NEC) creates a new electrical code by having a committee of experts from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) review and update the code every three years, incorporating new technologies and safety advancements through a process that includes public input and panel discussions, ultimately resulting in a revised version of the code that reflects the latest standards in electrical installation practices.
The NEC is revised by the National Fire Protection Association's Committee on the National Electrical Code, which consists of 19 code-making panels and a technical correlating committee. Revision occurs every three years to ensure that the code takes into account the latest in technology and safety.
......................................................................
The 2023 National Electrical Code (NEC) | 5 Big Changes Coming Soon!
https://www.jadelearning.com/blog/the-2023-national-electrical-code-nec-5-big-changes-coming-soon/" rel="nofollow - https://www.jadelearning.com/blog/the-2023-national-electrical-code-nec-5-big-changes-coming-soon/
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 8:34pm
|
do you REALLY think the "RULES" need to change every 3 years ?? ... Granted, you could have a few SUGGESTIONS... but the 50 year old RULES are more than adequae.... They screwed up by getting a lot of these GFI plugs installed and MANY DONT WORK RIGHT... therefore "NEW REGS" to make up for past SCREW UPS that dont work.
Do you want to see a REAL JOKE ???.... CLick on your link and read "the 5 changes in the code for 2023" ........... basically all WORTHLESS..... a GROUP generating FIXES for PROBLEMS that dont exist..
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2024 at 10:43pm
The usual result of anything designed bey a committee!! Nothing works and everyone is confused!
|
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2024 at 5:55am
|
wow #3, kitchen GFCI receptacles will be a HUGE money maker. does anyone KNOW if you can buy a 15 amp 'split' GFCI ??
for decades Ontario only required 3 splits in a kitchen that would now become SIX GFCI reeptacles. more breakers, more wire, more boxes, more LABOUR, more $$$$
The big problem is the NEC's 'suggestions' become LAW, even though they are unPROVEN to be of true benefit.
-------------
3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
|
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2024 at 7:56am
|
you want to talk about $$$$$$$... Read #2 REAL CLOSE..
-------- 2. Section 110.17, Servicing and Maintenance of Equipment.Section 110.17, Servicing and Maintenance of Equipment is brand-new to the 2023 NEC, and as part of Article 110, General Requirements for Electrical Installations, it applies to all types of service and maintenance work. This new Code section states that all service and electrical preventive maintenance work must be performed by qualified persons trained in the servicing and maintenance of electrical equipment......
So much for "GOVT CONTROL" of your daily life.. When they make a "RULE" that you cant change out a light socket or duplex plug YOURSELF.... its comeing !!
-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2024 at 4:21pm
|
NFPA had us Power Station Operators wearing FR Clothing JUST to walk around inside the areas, had Flash Suits for use when Working On LIVE equipment, so was ZERO Necessity for Shirts, Trousers, Jackets to be FR, then add FR rated RAIN SUITS at $450 a Set, RAIN SUITS. NOT a believer in much of what these Committee People state as seems it amounts to BIG $$$$ to their Materials and Equipment Supporters.
|
|