Engine will no turnover
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=201378
Printed Date: 24 Nov 2024 at 10:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Engine will no turnover
Posted By: Chugach
Subject: Engine will no turnover
Date Posted: 17 May 2024 at 6:21pm
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Hello, My D15 Series II was running just fine. Went to restart and a clanking noise came from front of tractor so I shut her down. Now it will not start. Dropped the oil pan and crank and all look good. Can’t get the crank shaft to move. Any suggestions? Thanks, Chugach |
Replies:
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 17 May 2024 at 6:38pm
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Since you already have the oil pan off, the next step is to determine if the trouble is in the piston/cylinder area or elsewhere. Pull the rod caps off one at a time and see if you can move the piston upward. If they all move, then it is probably in the cam gear/governor gear area. That is the most likely from your description of the noise, but you do have the pan off so...
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 17 May 2024 at 7:39pm
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governor failed... pull it out. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 17 May 2024 at 10:27pm
| did you pull the starter and make sure it isnt broke |
Posted By: ryan(IN)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 7:14am
This. Occasionally the starter on my D14 loosens the pinch bolt and it will turn ever so slightly. Go the start it. Acts like it’s locked up tight. Turn the starter. Fires right up. ------------- ryan 1984 8070 FWA,1979 7060,1975 7040,1971 190,1960 D-17D,1957 D-14, 196? D-19G, 1975 5040,1971? 160,1994 R62 |
HudCo wrote:Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 8:07am
Unless the starter is jammed into the flywheel I don't think it would create the above symptom. Steve's suggestion of governor failure is most likely the culprit
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Posted By: ACinSC
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 8:19am
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When I bought my D 15 the seller said the engine was locked up He had the oil pan off. Favorite son and I were able to bar the engine over at the flywheel Starter had it locked up. Just saying |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 8:25am
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Starter and Governor a both good ideas... Do the easy one first ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 9:28am
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re: tried to restart-clunk-jammed my monies on.... Starter.... disconnect battery, remove 1 bolt, remove starter put long screwdriver in bellhousing, test turn the ringgear..... ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 10:09am
Three very experienced posters have stated that this can indeed happen on this engine Edit: Four
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 10:23am
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Put it in high gear and rock it backwards. might unstick a stuck starter... If that doesn't do it take the starter out and see if the engine will turn one way or another. Maybe dropped a valve? ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 1:09pm
| Thanks Les |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 1:20pm
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Thanks everyone! I have taken the starter out and bench tested and that is working fine. I am heading towards the timing gear cover. A lot of old oil on front of engine. I will try the other suggestions. I appreciate the help because I am not much of a mechanic. Chugach |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 1:23pm
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remove the starter and it is FINE...I assume you tested, but try to rotate the engine ? STUCK starter can still be a good starter... ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 1:54pm
| Thanks Steve. I will pull the plugs and try to turn the crankshaft |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 6:44pm
| Removed the rod caps and all pistons move. Tried to move the flywheel through starter hole and failed. Back to removing the timing gear cover, do I really need to do a front split and move the front assembly away from the tractor? Thanks again, Chugach. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 7:00pm
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I would start on the distributor end... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzTrJO2gDw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzTrJO2gDw ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 7:05pm
| Just curious (and probably stating the obvious), but does it still not turn over with the (foot) clutch depressed? |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 7:29pm
| Yes |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 8:12pm
| Thanks for the link Steve! |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 8:53pm
| All is well with the distributor side, I had high hopes |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 9:20pm
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DANG... i was hoping you would see a broken weight or pin ! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 9:23pm
| Governor goes out the front, not the rear. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 9:43pm
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yes... guess im getting ahead of myself.. need to read closer.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 10:26pm
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Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 18 May 2024 at 10:27pm
| Bearing seems a little wonky |
Posted By: 55allis
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 12:15am
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Is this just my eyes or is something missing? In the red circle?  ------------- 1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45 |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 2:16am
 Here is the cover |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:03am
| Nothing there that has "locked" up the engine. Is there a loader on this tractor with a front hydraulic pump??? Do the fan blades turn when you push/pull on them ?? |
Posted By: Mikez
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:39am
| Did something find its way into a gear. Cam,crank,governor |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:42am
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Yea, does the water pump or the generator/alternator turn freely? Could the camshaft have gauld in the bearings? can he wiggle the governor to feel gear teeth backlash? Looking at the 'fork, the weld looks funky, like somebody welded a new fork on, would have thought a factory weld would have been soother than that. Wait, weren't those forks bolted on so you could remove them to replace seals and bushings? Where did the screws/bolts go to? ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:50am
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Is that yellow snot some previous liquid 'gasket' material ??? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:53am
| This is getting ugly. Got the oil pan off with conn rods disconnected. Sure hope all the rod caps got marked. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 8:25am
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you pulled the rod caps off and the pistons "MOVE"... but how much and what direction ... Is it worth pulling the valve cover off and looking at the valves to see if one dropped ? When you say the motor "will not turn".. is that not at all, or several degrees in one direction and then back ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 8:41am
Yikes! Where indeed? |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 12:41pm
| It does have a loader with an internal hydraulic pump. The fan does move. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 12:47pm
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the fan turning proves that the water pump is not locked up... Why DR asked about the loader is that many have a hydraulic pump driven off the front of the crank... and the PUMP can lock up and cause the engine to NOT turn over...... maybe loosen up / remove the drive coupling / etc and test...
same thing with an alternator or air conditioner.. If they LOCK UP, that can cause the engine problem.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 2:27pm
| Tractor has a loader with an internal hydraulic pump. Fan does turn. |
Posted By: Lars(wi)
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 2:34pm
Make sure the fan is not slipping on the belt, if possible check somehow, when turning the fan and belt, the crankshaft is also turning. ------------- I tried to follow the science, but it was not there. I then followed the money, and that’s where I found the science. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 3:37pm
 Thank you everyone for your input, what a great blog! Anyone want to buy a slightly used D15  I tried to wiggle governor, no wiggle. I believe the yellow snot is old gasket. I am not sure about welded forks, previous owner. I moved pistons up down slightly. The motor does not move also cam pulley for fan.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 4:08pm
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what is driving the loader pump ? Somehow it gets rotation from the engine.. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 4:27pm
 This is the hydraulic line. |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 5:57pm
Hmmm...  If the trouble lies elsewhere such as the hydraulic pump being locked up, etc. there should still be at least a smidgen of backlash between those gears, especially on a well-used engine such as yours. Looks like the front of the engine may need to come off
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Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 7:28pm
| Yeah unfortunately that seems to be the road ahead. I do appreciate everyone’s suggestions. My only wish is that I had put a t on the end of the NO so the title read “Engine will not turnover” |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 19 May 2024 at 8:34pm
Another long shot would be a snapped cam shaft, or some kind of debris in the gear train... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 5:03pm
| I put a big pipe wrench on the camshaft pulley, went counter clockwise and got 3/4 turn and it stopped. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 5:39pm
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crankshaft pulley ?
have someone watch the valves and see if both ends of the camshaft are moving ( not broke)... valves moving on both ends (#1 and #4)..? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 5:50pm
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I put pipe wrench on PTO shaft, engaged PTO, tranny in neutral,.....to turn engine over. That was 24 years ago.... You have pulled all the spark plugs out ?? ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 6:35pm
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I may have missed something. If i did overlook this. I believe id tie the clutch down and make sure its not something in the drive line ------------- 1984 80780 1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 6:42pm
 I need to get my eyes checked. Seems like something is missing. Again thank you all very much for your help. Chugach |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 6:45pm
| BINGO !! dropped the number 1 exhaust valve. Will need at least one piston and head repairs. |
Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 8:24pm
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Not a great turn of events but im glad you found it ------------- 1984 80780 1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 8:29pm
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how may hours on the engine ? .... Head will be off... is it worth doing a valve job and pulling all the pistons / new rings ?? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 8:38pm
| There was a time 40 yrs ago when you could have bought one piston and maybe one sleeve. In recent years buying a "motor kit" was impossible as no one even made them for a G-160 engine. Don't know if that is still true or not. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 9:47pm
You can buy a "KIT" for a complete overhall... Dont know if you can get one piston or not.. or if it would match the original ???..... Unless you get a used on on e-bay.
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 20 May 2024 at 10:00pm
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 21 May 2024 at 3:11pm
| Thanks for the piston sites. I blew a head gasket last year, and had the head resurfaced and new valves. I did not replace the pistons. I am just glad I didn’t rip into the timing gear cover. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 21 May 2024 at 7:43pm
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This was one of my customers last fall . MF 65 176 Cont. Gas . He was bush hogging when valve dropped . Don't forget to pull rocker arm assembly apart.     ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 21 May 2024 at 7:55pm
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Wow! That’s what I have to look forward to. Thanks for the advice and pictures! 40 degrees and rain today, not conducive for playing with tractor. I will attach pictures of my dilemma. I have high hopes that all I have to do is replace the valve … just kidding!
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Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 21 May 2024 at 7:58pm
| Mine happened after removing 3 1/2 feet of wet November snow from driveway. But when I gave it a break and restarted. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 21 May 2024 at 11:55pm
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Sorry to see the valve dropped. Good luck on the engine rebuild. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 22 May 2024 at 9:33am
Yup, that would have been a waste. Obviously that piston did not move all the way upward when you disconnected the rod cap
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Posted By: ACinSC
Date Posted: 22 May 2024 at 11:14am
| Hope the rebuild goes well. Please keep us posted. Thanks |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 22 May 2024 at 12:33pm
| Thanks I appreciate that! |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 23 May 2024 at 8:35pm
When can dropping a valve still be lucky. 
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 23 May 2024 at 8:46pm
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if the top of the piston looks as good as the valve seat.... you might be in Business ! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 23 May 2024 at 9:01pm
It has a few battle scars.
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Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 23 May 2024 at 9:06pm
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Reckon the keeper didn't keep'er so very well |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 23 May 2024 at 9:51pm
| Many years of faithful Service. I am glad I had the key in hand when the noise started. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 24 May 2024 at 7:13am
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Check the rocker arm play on shaft ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: Chugach
Date Posted: 24 May 2024 at 12:34pm
| Will do, thanks |