final drive bearings lube and sprocket support
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=195183
Printed Date: 23 Nov 2024 at 3:29pm
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Topic: final drive bearings lube and sprocket support
Posted By: doctorcorey
Subject: final drive bearings lube and sprocket support
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 12:56pm
I'm curious for opinions on the best method to pre-lube the final bearings, especially the upper pinion shaft bearings. I'm tempted to use thin bearing grease, as I know for sure it will not run off, if I have delays in assembling the whole final train. I can also use lithium assembly lube....it's thinner than grease and I've used it on every engine bearing for the last 30 yrs. It's especially good for priming oil pumps on those old stubborn Ford and Chrysler big-blocks with long pickup tubes. Next, I have to replace the outer 'support' bearing on the sprocket shaft. Worn out, but well oiled. Wouldn't have expected that bearing to wear out so fast (I don't really know how old it is), because the 'main' bearings on the sprocket shaft looked really good. That support bearing is around 300$ from what I've looked at so far. I found that the only reason my final seals were leaking was clogged vent tubes (venting inside the steering brake compartments) Air pressure building up inside the final case had no where to go except through the sprocket seals. One more thing, this 'neoprene cement' used on the seals, what are we using today for this purpose? Anyways, with the left clutch pulled out, I can feel the slack in the right final geartrain, and it's more than I like to feel.  Probably have to pull that side down and replace some bearings there before I end up with shrapnel like the left pinions. Buddy said 'you could have bought a cheap Caterpillar for what you're spending". I said, 'yeah, but then I'd have a cheap Cat.....I'd rather have a expensive Allis Chalmers".  ------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Replies:
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 1:13pm
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I use "Lubriplate 105" engine assembly grease and have for many years. Neoprene cement is still what you want for those seals/boots. Ebay, McMaster-Carr, and several vendors that deal with the diving sport have it available. It doesn't keep long so purchase only enough you'll use for your project at the time. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 3:11pm
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I used a permatex sealant when i fixed a final on my 16. I dont recall which specifically but it was similar to hi tack or indian head but does not harden. never had any trouble. I second lubriplate, once you fill the final with oil it will migrate out to the bearings anyway and lubriplate will disappear into the oil ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 3:58pm
------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Codger wrote:Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 9:48pm
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I have used this neoprene cement in the past before it was available on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/BLOCKSURF-Neoprene-Industrial-Strength-Wetsuit/dp/B08YGVCPZT/ref=asc_df_B08YGVCPZT/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532261498782&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15374501384977694212&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9022077&hvtargid=pla-1408455400260&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/BLOCKSURF-Neoprene-Industrial-Strength-Wetsuit/dp/B08YGVCPZT/ref=asc_df_B08YGVCPZT/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532261498782&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15374501384977694212&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9022077&hvtargid=pla-1408455400260&psc=1 It worked well for me and I've not heard any complaints from the tractor owner about leaks. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 3:55am
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Codger Says "Currently unavailable, restock unknown"
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 6:51am
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It did not show that yesterday when I forwarded the link. I never purchased from Amazon but rather a now defunct dive shop. That product, (and like products) are available via internet suppliers also. That is however is one used with success. Few more vendors but probably a shipping charge: https://www.seasidesurfshop.com/products/neoprene-cement?currency=USD&variant=1452287873&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&utm_campaign=gs-2020-01-12&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3MW7a1XnWTgHFZA9VM0Y8H6ddYKyVNpZeffDMp1O5nPHBbIVN9qhGhoCxLkQAvD_BwE" rel="nofollow - https://www.seasidesurfshop.com/products/neoprene-cement?currency=USD&variant=1452287873&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&utm_campaign=gs-2020-01-12&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3MW7a1XnWTgHFZA9VM0Y8H6ddYKyVNpZeffDMp1O5nPHBbIVN9qhGhoCxLkQAvD_BwE https://www.mackiteboarding.com/blocksurf-neoprene-cement-4oz/" rel="nofollow - https://www.mackiteboarding.com/blocksurf-neoprene-cement-4oz/ https://usedsurf.com/blocksurf-neoprene-cement-4oz/" rel="nofollow - https://usedsurf.com/blocksurf-neoprene-cement-4oz/ Thanks,
------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Les Kerf
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 8:06am
I strongly urge you to verify that your new seals do in fact fit correctly in that the metal seal surfaces actually make contact and compress the springs that hold the seal surfaces together. Ours did not and I had to make some custom spacers to correct the problem, which I show in this thread: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/hd5g-final-drive-seal_topic187068_post1594266.html?KW=final+drive+seals#1594266 |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 9:31pm
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Found several on-line sources for 'neoprene cement', ordered one from a surf-shop. Being new to this type of seal, it appears that the main purpose of the glue is to hold the seal parts together long enough to properly assemble them. It may help hold the 'bladder' in place later in the areas where it sits over the pins. My seal came out in sections, glue was long gone, and aside from some shrinkage in the bladder/bellows thingy, it was intact, and shielded the outer bearing well. After working on hundreds of different machines for my whole life, I have never seen a seal where two metal rings worked against each other to form the moving element. My thoughts from pictures was that they were some sort of Bakelite or carbon rings rubbing together. ------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 11:02pm
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Face seals https://www.skf.com/au/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/metal-face-seals" rel="nofollow - https://www.skf.com/au/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/metal-face-seals Fiat Allis 10's use them in their final drives and in all the track rollers and idlers. They're tough. I got a piece of fence wire caught in a sprocket outboard seal. Talked to a local repair bloke. Cut a sheet metal finger and managed to work the wire out. The seal took up almost completely.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 19 May 2023 at 9:26am
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steel on steel seals are very common for Industrial equip... All the LARGE ALLIS dozers used them on the final drive shaft.... 21C, 31, 41B ....... the ceramic face on ONE SIDE is common for higher speed water pumps, chemical pumps, etc. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 22 May 2023 at 10:04pm
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I received my neoprene cement today, installed the sprocket, finally. This stuff dries 'right now'. The seal is quite simple to install, once you get a grasp of it's operation. I will look at the outer support bearing tomorrow. The AC manual mentions shims between the support bearing housing and the track frame, but mine had no shims there, only on the outer cover on the supp. bearing housing. Another interesting thing is that when I installed the intermediate shaft, I had to remove a bunch of shims to get the proper 50 in/lb preload on the bearings. I'm going to guess that the previous mechanic didn't have the inner bearing race pressed in all the way into the housing, and had to add shims to loosen it up. This outer race (on inner bearing)actually pushes in slightly below the level of the housing, so if you pressed in in flush with the housing, it wouldn't be fully seated. My failure appears to have started with a inner bearing failure, resulting in the inner bearing/inner race falling out and being crunched between the pinion and 40 tooth gear. I found this race in about 10 pieces, and cringe at the thought of the sound it must have made when it went through those gears.
------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 23 May 2023 at 6:14am
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Yes, it does dry quickly not giving much time to work with it. Once the can is opened, the product does not have much of a shelf life but can be extended if you screw the lid back down onto the can using a plastic sandwich bag with a hole punched, (for the applicator brush to pass through) sealing the threads and keep it in the refrigerator. Allow to warm before the next use. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 23 May 2023 at 6:21am
| I have no experience with this, but DrAllis often recommends (John Deere) Corn Head Grease for applications like you are describing. It is thinner than lithium grease and works well where gear oil leaking is a problem. Just a free suggestion (which is probably worth what you paid for it!). |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 23 May 2023 at 12:00pm
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Corn head grease is a good product and very clean to pack into pressure fed, or splash lubricated bearings. It's run, or drop point is quite low which you would want in this application. It readily creates a homogeneous mixture with petroleum based, and synthetics used in lubricants. I can't attest to availability outside of implement dealers, and farm type stores however, as don't think I've seen the product elsewhere. Lubriplate on the other hand is available wherever engine parts are sold as it's a standby of many years. Permatex red "engine assembly lube" is another readily available product that doesn't work bad on bearings. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 23 May 2023 at 12:46pm
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As many of the outboard bearing wee fed by rifle drilled axle shafts or some form of gravity from final drive case , I have seen many machines where he outboard bearing housing was drilled and tapped for a zerk fitting to allow any type of gen grease to be added - Have seen a welded shield around the zerk to the placement of a plug into threaded casting . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 23 May 2023 at 10:06pm
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Some of your suggestions remind me of one of my 'off-label' usages......Marvel Mystery red air tool oil for drilling holes. It works really well, and better than many 'cutting fluids' sold at most welding and machine supplies. To my original question, I figure that it's a good idea to dip the bearings in clean oil, then add some Lubriplate for a longer-term insurance on start-up. It's important to coat the entire bearing to prevent air from reaching any part. ------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 24 May 2023 at 6:13am
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Corn head grease is used quite extensively at the implement dealer I help out. Just yesterday one of the guys rebuilt a "discbine" geabox and coated all the teeth and roller bearings with it. It is then filled with gear lube once installed back onto the implement. The one thing I really didn't much care for with the Lubriplate product is the drop point is too low for anything rebuilt and in the sun on a hot day for instance. The product will run out of a bearing readily when the sunlight and ambient temperature raises. Not a problem if the parts or assembly are readily placed into service, but an extended period? Corn head grease will take this temperature swing and remain in place unless extreme. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 24 May 2023 at 6:38am
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Sorry to be off topic, but... I know John Deere calls it corn head grease, but I'm sure JD gets it from some supplier (refiner). If someone tried to buy it from someone other than JD, what would you ask for?
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Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 24 May 2023 at 6:50am
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Exactly that. The brand at the implement dealer is AGCO. They have from time to time CNH branded, but the AGCO branded is less $$$ although the same product in the tube. I've seen it in other names also, but cannot remember them readily. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 24 May 2023 at 5:12pm
Thixotropic grease...  ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 24 May 2023 at 8:23pm
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Asking for a grease by that term will get you the same googly eyed look from the counter jockey as if you'd asked them about the meniscus layer, or surface tension of the fluid medium you seek. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 28 May 2023 at 2:34pm
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NLGI #0 grade Corn Head Grease is a high quality multi-purpose, semi-fluid type grease available in an NLGI #0 grade. Although primarily applied in corn head lubrication, this product can be recommended for many applications in agriculture, automotive, construction and industrial environments. Grease comes in # 0 , # 00 and # 000 which is the fluidity of the product for many purposes . Overall there are other grades also > Greases are classified into nine consistency grades (000, 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) established by the National Lubrication and Grease Institute (NLGI). NLGI #000 greases are nearly fluid, while NLGI #6 greases are nearly solid. ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 28 May 2023 at 2:43pm
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Many might remember the old Wheel Bearing grease that was a black stringy grease that was almost solid and it took a good putty knife to get it out of the can, then extreme handling to get it packed into a bearing . Might have been great for packing the axle to wheel surface of a wooden wagon wheel running as slow speed but as times change so did lubricants . When I bought my 66 White Tandem Dump truck the front wheels were packed with a similar grease , I went with a newer liter grade grease , but next time i serviced it I went to new seals and a outboard oil type cup which took GL5 gear oil for lube on bearings . Ran it for over 30 years with no problems = just changed the oil every so often when servicing truck ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |