Moldboard plow sizing
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=195152
Printed Date: 14 Nov 2024 at 9:19am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Moldboard plow sizing
Posted By: DrAllis
Subject: Moldboard plow sizing
Date Posted: 14 May 2023 at 9:41pm
| Consider the relationship of rated PTO HP and moldboard plow sizing.....interesting. The WC was famous for 2 bottom 14 inch plows. 2 times 14 is 28 inches of cut and the tractor was 28 PTO HP on gasoline. The WD-45 gas was 43 HP and pulled 3 bottoms times 14 inches for 42 inches of cut. The D-17 gas was 53 HP and (some places) pulled four 14's for 56 inches of cut. The D-19 gas was 71 HP PTO and was called a 5-bottom unit. 5 times 14 is 70 inches of cut !! The new class size One-Eighty at 64 HP pulled four 16's at 64 inches of cut !! The mighty 190 XT 's and 200's were known as 5 x 16's or 6 x 14's tractors around here for 80 or 84 inches of cut and were 94 PTO HP. The 220 Land-Handler was touted as eight bottom 16's for 128 inches of cut and had 135 PTO HP. Your results will vary (a lot) depending on soil types, plowing depth and how hilly your fields are. |
Replies:
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 2:57pm
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The mechanical condition of the plow makes a HUGE difference. We pull 4 - 16 #74 snap couple plow with our gasoline D-17. Up to 8" deep. Usually 6". Soils on our farm range from silt clay loam to tiger soil. The tractor has calcium and wheel weights. The plow must be properly adjusted. Moldboards must be polished. If the plow will not scour properly, the tractor may be very lacking for horse power. Tractor condition and tires also play a part. In 1960, my dad bought a new D-17 gasoline tractor. The John Deere and Allis Chalmers dealer both brought out a tractor and plow for a plowing contest. Both tractors were of comparable horse power and plow. Daddy decided on the D-17 because it walked away from the John Deere. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 3:49pm
| I've always figured a MINIMUM of 100 Lbs per PTO horsepower to have a prayer of pulling a plow decently. A 120 lbs per PTO HP is even better. The front end has to be weighted heavy enough the Traction Booster isn't lifting the wheels off the ground or it cannot work properly. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 3:54pm
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We, my dad, had one of the last WD's, it was supposed to pull 3-14 Snap-coupler, the WD-45 was supposed to pull 3-16 Snap-coupler. They both had a hard doing that. ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 5:37pm
| Well, sounds like in your soils and the way the plows were adjusted, your Dad needed the 3 x 14's on the WD-45 and 2 x 16's on the WD. Which, doing it that way would be 32 inches of cut for a 34 HP WD and 42 inches of cut for a 43 HP WD-45, proving my point !! |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 7:24pm
| If a plow is adjusted correctly helps a bunch ! Have seen some trying to plow , cussing the tractor, plow- get behind it and look at the setup |
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 15 May 2023 at 10:38pm
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Dr. Allis is 100% correct about the weight on the front. Our 180 took a bunch of weight on the front. D-17 worked a whole lot better once the 500 loader was added. When we plow alfalfa ground, we remove one bottom of the 4 bottom plow. Almost impossible to use 4 bottoms with the D-17 on alfalfa ground.
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Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 5:01am
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Very interesting Doc thanks for posting! ------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 7:28am
| I've been thinking about taking a 3 x 16's 70-series fully mounted plow and turning it into 3 x 18's for a 54 inch cut versus a 4 x 14's at 56 inch cut. The 3 bottoms would pull easier (I think) with less friction, and I think the 16 inch bottoms could handle an 18 inch swipe and roll it over just fine with coverboards on the bottoms. Be an interesting experiment !! |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 7:32am
| Doc, I got $5 says that 3-18’s will pull a lot harder than 4-14’s. That is if you get them set up on the frame to where they each take their full bite. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 7:39am
| Need to find a 70 series "donor" plow to make the change !! Center bottom stays where it already is. Front bottom moves to the right 2 inches. Rear bottom moves to the left 2 inches. Rear wheel on the tractor gets moved out 2 inches. Away we go !! Should be less plugging problems set up like this, wouldn't ya think ?? |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 8:18am
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Yep, I follow the plan, and yep if it pulls ok I would agree it should plug less, turn over good, flow trash nicely. In your opinion, how does a Case (old, actual Case) plow pull? Years back when we upgraded tractors, we had a Deere 3 -16 integral plow. Everyone says Deere pulls hard and I can’t say I disagree. Anyway the tractor didn’t know that plow was back there so we went looking for a bigger plow. As easy as 3-16’s was, we found a 4-18’s Case. It would pull it sorta, but very hard. Lots of wheel slip, laboring hard, and that was on flat ground. Was a no go. We bought a 4-16 Allis, pulled it beautifully and then a 4-16 Deere (oh those hard pullers!) and pulled it just fine as well. Talking with folks around, dealers, mechanics, farmers, they all said 18’s pull different! More so than proportional to width of cut. If you can get it to where you can do a nice job of turning over at a relatively shallow depth, you’ll maybe do ok. I’ve always found mature sod and alfalfa ground very difficult to roll over while going shallow. I’ll be watching, very curious and interested in what you experience. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 8:27am
| In my plan, I'm not using true 18 inch bottoms, so I'd expect it to pull a little harder than 3 x 16's, but that extra 2 inches on each bottom shouldn't be a huge increase in draft. We've all seen where the front bottom is rolling over waaay more than it is supposed to and it doesn't seem to change the look of the rolled over furrow much and doesn't seem to change the draft load much either. |
Posted By: Tbone95
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 8:35am
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Ah! I didn’t realize that. Ok, so yeah, just making the back two bottoms do what the front one often does. Got ya now. You said it, just didn’t register. |
Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 8:43am
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Interesting experiment Doc! I have plenty of 3-16 plows around, I could try this some day myself. Won't be this year, too much else to do. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 9:08am
| I just remember my old Boss at Allis-Chalmers telling me when they went to the Farm Progress Show (back in the old days) they would cut off the plow share on the trailing end a couple of inches to make the plow pull easier. They were expected to plow 8 inches or more deep and this little trick helped the tractor to work better. I figure what I'm proposing doing to essentially be the same thing. |
Posted By: Tracy Martin TN
Date Posted: 16 May 2023 at 8:32pm
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It would be interesting to see. It makes you wonder where the trade off point is in plows. Would 3 -12's pull easier than 2 -18's. I would like to know how much plow a 170-175 will pull and not lug it down here in middle Tenn. Ground is hard to plow in these parts. Tracy ------------- No greater gift than healthy grandkids! |
Posted By: IBWD MIke
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 8:19am
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Tracy, I don't know if three 12's would pull easier than two 18's, probably depend on the individual bottoms. You can plow deeper with 18's than 12's for sure. General rule for depth is 1/2 the width of cut. However, I have my 3-16's 10" deep in the garden, ground is really mellow, about as close to perfect moldboarding conditions as you're going to find. In these parts, 14's and 16's seem to have been the rule. You'll see a few 18's, not many. I can't remember any 12's or smaller that I've seen at auction or plow-day.
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Posted By: Dennis J OPKs
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 8:37am
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Dad had one of the very early WD's bought new with 2-16's. I remember he was used to pulling through small ditches with a pull type plow. Not with a mounted one & got hung up big time, not sure how he got it out. That tractor later pulled 3-14's mounted & had been converted to Traction Booster, must have been a kit they offered. Pulled 3-14's in hill clay & heavy bottom stuff. Would have to drop a bottom in alfalfa. Later, that plow was put with a used WD 45 and it pretty much played with it. After I left the area he bought a D 17, series II or III. Had a 4-16 slat plow with no problems, don't think it was ever in hay ground. Again, it's all in the proper set-up.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 10:04am
| All WD's had the "Traction Booster" system as standard equipment BUT, the actual Traction Booster gauge wasn't until the WD-45's or maybe very late WD's. So, many early WD's got the gauge added to make operation of the system easier. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 10:04am
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I like plowing with my G I have a pair, left & right mounted plows for it. What is nice is that they are right beneath your feet, no need to keep turning your head back and forth to watch the plow and where you are going. ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: Brian F(IL)
Date Posted: 17 May 2023 at 10:12am
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Nice post, Doctor. I've still got Dad's 1953 WD-45 and a #73 SC plow; not sure of the bottom width but most likely 14". It's a good pairing unless you get into real tough, black gumbo.
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 7:24am
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DrAllis wrote:Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 8:22am
Didn't they change the internal cam lever in the hyd pump? I don't remember what dad said but there was something changed internally. I think it removed some sensitivity to TB because the 45 was such a rip snorter!
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 11:38am
| I cannot answer that. I wasn't born yet when the WD came out. There is always a chance they had an improvement, but the addition of a gauge to see what was going on had to be huge when it came to the operation of it. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 11:58am
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You made a change on the hydraulic pump when you used a mounted plow on the WD. Normally it lifted and held, you changed it to lift and dropped so that the Traction Booster would work. ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 1:26pm
| Pretty sure it's #12 cam assembly in parts book. Has a pump ser # change. One has more curl than the other I think. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 6:27pm
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I do know a trick given to me by an old Tech some 40+ years ago for the WD and WD45 Traction Booster/Hydraulic pump when rebuilding one. He told me to grind off almost all the spring guide stem on the small pump plunger. Just leave enough for the spring to center itself. This trick makes the Traction Booster plunger pump more GPM per stroke, making the lift arms react quicker when activated. The coil spring that surrounds the PTO shaft has shims that can be added or removed to get spring tension in a "sweet spot" for the best Traction Booster performance. I did some plowing with my WD45 that these mods have been done to last Fall. I had a 73 series 14 inch slat bottom plow that the TBoost worked flawlessly. I didn't have to raise my lift/lower lever more that 3/4" to 1" off the bottom of the quadrant to have things work well. I didn't even have to unlock the "hold" plates screw as the lever was never high enough off the bottom to get into the hold position range. Almost the performance of an old D-17 !!! |
Posted By: GWS
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 7:11pm
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Very interesting post. I always used the drawbar hp rating to size plows to a tractor. It's always about 10-15 hp lower than pto. I had a 4 x 18 on the 190 xt. 72"cut for 79 drawbar hp. Worked great. I can't think of anyone around me who would put 5 bottoms on a 100 pto hp tractor. But this is the Northeast. Varying soil types on every farm, and plenty of hills. One more reason I'm jealous of you flatlanders! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 7:44pm
| The interesting thing about the 90 to 100 HP days was farmers wanted more plowing speed and the plow to go DEEPER than the WD-45 and D-17 plowed. That was one of the reasons 5 x 16's were more often pulled instead of 6 x 14's or 6 X 16's. |
Posted By: AC720Man
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 8:32pm
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My WD is a 52’ and doesn’t have a traction booster gauge. Maybe 53’ was the first year they were installed? ------------- 1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 18 May 2023 at 9:50pm
| Dad had a 53 WD and it didn't have one. AGCO parts shows the TBoost gauge and line and says WD-45 only. I'm sure some WD's got it added on but not factory installed. |
Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 20 May 2023 at 9:34pm
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This is a very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing. Pastor Mike ------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa, |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 4:08pm
| DrAllis, do you think an AC 7060 with drawbar hp at 142, should pull an AC 8-18” monobeam (144”) plow? Anybody pulling one? On-Land plow? |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 5:03pm
I pulled neighbors 6-18 IH on land hitch with my 220 running 170hp. Rises to 210 when pulled down on the dyno. Was a good match. I doubt 8-18's would work so well especially with less hp. You won't know till you try.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 5:40pm
| I think if you don't stray away from the 5 to 6 inch depth, 120 lbs weight per PTO HP and 3 to 3.5 MPH speed of a WD-45 tractor/plow combo, you could probably pull it fine. As I said earlier in this post, it seems that when the 90 to 100 HP tractor/plow came along, deeper and faster was the norm, which meant WIDTH began to decrease per HP provided. The mighty 220 was 135 PTO HP and was sold as a 8 x 16's plow tractor for 128 inches of cut. |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 5:53pm
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 9:48pm
| 6 mile S so mostly 'timber soil" however there is a few acres of black dirt that you don't dare touch wet! I think I have every soil type listed somewhere on this patch. |