Perkins 4-236 trouble shooting
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=194641
Printed Date: 23 Nov 2024 at 10:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Perkins 4-236 trouble shooting
Posted By: KRAKMT
Subject: Perkins 4-236 trouble shooting
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2023 at 10:38am
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So I may or may not have a catastrophe. I started my 715b last weekend. It fired up an first crank. But when I went to open the shop doors it died, no sputter full died. Ok I have been messing with some wires lately so thought it might be the fuel solenoid. In checking wires, I checked the fuel sediment bowl, had some rust in it and some tendrils of ? So I cleaned that and then changed the fuel filter and tried turning it over to bleed the lines. Cranking has gradually slowed, hard to turn and slow. Starter is barely turning it. Replaced the battery and still slow crank. Worried that i might have broken something on inside. I did try turning the pressure plate with screwdriver and it seemed to turn fine? I am waiting for store to open to buy a tool and I will pull front radiator cowling to see if I can turn front pulley. Cross your fingers that it is just a starter issue. |
Replies:
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2023 at 8:48pm
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Hopefully your problem is easy to fix with a starter being the most likely culprit from my reading. Hopefully you don't need but I have a freshly rebuilt, (std sizes) with all OEM Perkins parts 4.236 engine I built for my forklift after being told the original cylinder block was not usable. I'm not green to this work and it is done right. Turned out oversized liners were available and the original rebuilt engine is going back into my lift truck later in the week. I have a little better than $4K in this rebuild which is parts and sublet machine work. Everything internal is new with exception of the crankshaft. Both the cylinder head, and cylinder block were "decked" to ensure flatness. It is an "LD" build. No hurry to sale but don't think I'll ever use it. Would like somewhere close to what I have in it. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2023 at 7:50pm
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RUST in fuel line - Fighting that on my 715 as the tank supply line is real small going to fuel pump - blew line out , got good flow , bled filters , using either got it running . Moved it over near shop to get grease gun and it died - fuel line plugged again , blew it out got it running , made it around 100 ft from shop and quit again . first I thought it was clogged sediment bowl valve - found out it was fuel line itself . Set a 5 gallon bucket on battery box with a tap for fuel line - ran it for 3 hours on that 5 gallons and got what I needed to do done . I would check starter and actual fuel supply to fuel pump before tearing into it . Shut off for fuel supply should me mechanical so nothing to do with power from battery ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2023 at 8:34pm
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Thanks for the input. I dropped the starter off for rebuild. Coke do you have a good system for cleaning the rust out of the tank? I might as well do that while I wait for the starter rebuild. I appreciate the motor offer and will definitely consider if something failed. |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2023 at 9:11pm
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It is a "hillbilly" solution but works quite well for rust removal from inside of fuel tanks. I strap them to the top of my plate compactor after dumping about a quart or 1/2 gallon quantity of FA-6 clean and dry sand into the tank. Duct tape all the openings closed and run this around about 15 minutes and then change the orientation of the tank so a new rusted surface is now on the bottom. Do this every which a way you can and the tank will be scrubbed clean internally from the vibrations and sand action. Rinse with both water and solvent and then coat the inside of the tank with a treatment for the purpose and your problems should be gone. Beware however if the tank is thin, it is possible you will now have holes. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2023 at 8:13am
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I watched a couple YouTube videos. They were using white vinegar. I don’t have a compactor but thought I would strap it to a cement mixer. I will try to get it out this week. I did turn over the engine again with a wrench and it seemed to turn over like normal. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2023 at 12:57am
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Son used vinegar last year on it but it seems with bio-diesel and a 1/4 tank of fuel while it was setting for a few month moisture collected and rust came back . I need to pull the tank and clean it again then install a new fitting in bottom of tank so i can remove sediment easily rather than it plug the outlet or the line ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2023 at 7:55am
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I use muriatic acid. It will clean it up bright. Also, fish a strong magnet down into the tank, it will collect a lot of the heavy rust flakes. I stuck one on the bottom of the tank. None of this helps with my blown final, however lol ------------- Semper Fi USMC 1958 HD6G, 1959 MF 203 loader, 1960 Case 420B Backhoe, MF 65 Tractor/Loader Diesel |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 9:51am
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I had the starter rebuilt but it clicks but doesn’t turn over. I am able to turn engine over relatively easy with breaker bar. Thoughts? |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 2:27pm
Who did you have rebuild the starter? Hopefully not a kid living in his parents basement trying to make ends meet. If so, all bets are off..... If a professional shop rebuilt the unit, I'd say you have a grounding, or power lead problem. I am assuming the "clicking" you are hearing is from the starter solenoid itself. Have you ensured you have clean, and tight electrical connections? This is first thing to ensure. Post a photo of the starter itself and the electrical connections. I don't know if your unit has a solenoid mounted to the starter, or is a remote contactor style. Basically like GM used, or Ford used for many years. Either can be bench tested with booster cables from a good battery or automobile to supply the power. ------------- That's All Folks! |
KRAKMT wrote:Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 4:24pm
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Take it and bench test , starter should run by jumping it from battery , yes it's GM style starter so can bypass the solonoid to run motor itself . If it just clicks - solonoid contacts are not hitting RUN coils of motor ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 9:58am
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Or the armature wires has lost conductivity at the commutator bars... Had that happen once for me. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 12:44pm
| I had a good professional shop rebuild it, you know the kind that is floor to ceiling with wooden shelves of every type of starter. The kind with oiled dirt floors and stacks of parts. |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 5:50pm
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This is good. We need to bench test the unit and you can do this preliminary while the starter is mounted in the tractor. First things first: Looking at the rear of the starter motor with the magnetic switch/solenoid mounted atop there are three terminals you are concerned with. Two are larger than the third terminal. Usually the top terminal is copper and where the positive lead from your starting battery is terminated. The terminal directly below this leads into the starter motor itself. To the right or left of these terminals is a much smaller terminal. If there are two small terminals, one will be labled "S", the other "R". If only one it probably isn't labeled. This small terminal can be either a push on spade lug, or a threaded stud. This smaller stud is the "trigger" wire from the ignition switch to the starter causing the starter motor to actuate. Take a metal tool, (usually a straight screwdriver) and touch both the battery terminal mentioned earlier, and this smaller terminal. If the engine cranks over, you either have a compromise in your wiring from the ignition switch to the starter magnetic switch/solenoid, or the ignition switch itself is compromised from age/use. It takes voltage and slight current to actuate the magnetic switch/solenoid to pull in the contacts to energize and spin the starter motor. Faulty connections or corrosion can inhibit proper operation. All this assumes the rebuilder did a competent job with the rebuild but I cannon imagine they did not do good work. If you did not send the magnetic switch solenoid into the shop with the starter for rebuild, you may have a problem there not addressed. Try the screwdriver trick and report back.
------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2023 at 9:30pm
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the solonoid has 2 sets of winding , which one advances or pulls the starter drive into the gear on flex plate , as it does than a disc inside the back of solonoid contacts the run winding for motor and has just enough current to keep solonoid in hold for drive , the internal disc contacts the 2 lugs inside solonoid cap to start motor itself . If that disc is not making good contact no motor , you can reverse the 2 lugs inside the cap as a fix and sand disc if pitted . remember the battery cable has to be able to carry 600 or more amps to the solonoid lug and that lug to starter windings and commutator to get everything to turn By just jumping across the 2 lugs on solonoid the starter motor should run - if not then brushes might not be making good contact - and time to have rebuilder check the unit further . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2023 at 10:13am
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I was able to get back to this yesterday. Wired the starter up and the engine spins over fast. Which is good because I had pulled the injectors. I will reinstall and see if I am getting fuel. I do need to scrub my tank a little before reinstallation. Fingers crossed. |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 6:03pm
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Of course I did. I broke one of the bolts that hold the injectors in. Does anyone know the thread pitch for the injector bolts? Or have a couple spares? |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2023 at 9:21pm
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I'll look tomorrow as have an engine without injectors installed. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: Codger
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 4:53pm
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All of my Perkins engines utilize studs to retain the injectors; not bolts. The studs are 5/16-24tpi. ------------- That's All Folks! |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2023 at 5:49pm
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I took one of my bolts in to get a tap to chase the threads and I was surprised that the bolts were 5/16x24. Thank you for confirming what the part store gave me. I was skeptical given the Perkins parts. That should make life easier. |
Posted By: KRAKMT
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2023 at 6:22am
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She lives, blend the fuel lines and she fired up, ran for a minute before shutting down. Looking to replace radiator fan and hoses. I had to cut the exact stack to get fuel tank out but one more nice day and I should be able to move it out of quanset to make room for next project. |