'52 Allis WD - Bark, pop, bang!
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=192058
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Topic: '52 Allis WD - Bark, pop, bang!
Posted By: jdschwass
Subject: '52 Allis WD - Bark, pop, bang!
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:21pm
Hi, I recently picked
up an old Allis WD, and I have been working on restoring it for the last few weeks. It’s been sitting outside for a long time, but
I managed to get it running. So I
replaced some seals and gaskets and gave it a full coat of paint. Some of it I couldn’t have done without the
wealth of knowledge on this board, so thanks for that. This is my first post however, as I am running
out of ideas with my troubleshooting.
I will try and provide
as much detail as I can...
I only got the
tractor about a month ago. I had it up
and running like a watch. Spent a few
hours mowing pasture, commuting around the farm, not a hiccup. I am pretty confident I can rule out any mechanical issues, valves, compression, etc based on how perfect it ran, and the power was excellent.
Then one morning
after a big dumping of snow, I went out to do some snow moving with it. I had driven it the day before, but now it
sounded louder than it should, kinda barky.
When I increased the RPM, it would occasionally backfire out the
exhaust, seemed to be running lean.
After checking over the carb 10 times over, I eventually found my points
were worn down to nothing on the cam heel piece.
Installed new
points, condenser, 12v coil, ignition
wires, spark plugs, and set valve lash and it was no better. Timing set with a light. It
would run perfectly for 20 minutes, and then back to popping and barking. Though idle is perfect. Also bypassed the ignition switch and ran
power right to coil. I removed the whole
distributor and found it to be nearly seized.
I soaked in in diesel overnight and got it all cleaned up and the timing
advance working again, which was stuck at full advance (where I set it with a
light). I thought for sure this would solve
my issues, but it didn’t make anything
better. In fact it’s almost worse.
The engine will
start in about half a second, idles great, but will not let me raise throttle
without fire out the stack, and horrible popping and barking.
I did notice there
is some side to side play in the distributor.
The bushing is clearly worn. Maybe worse than it was after cleaning out all the crud. With
just my fingers pushing, I measured 15 thou of play from one side to the
other. Over 20 thou if I use a screw
driver to torque it. I plan to install a
new bushing, so I tried staking the bushing a bit to tighten the
tolerance. No improvement. I want to think this is the cause, but I have
a Ford 600 that has far more wobble to it and it runs great.
Also when I put
the timing light on any given spark plug, they are all firing, but each plug
will randomly skip a few beats and then start up again. I think this has to be electrical issue. I will probably start by getting another set
of points, just in case these are duds.
I would appreciate
any thoughts. Especially around the distributor
play. I know it’s not ideal, but don’t
think it could make it this bad.
Thanks all.
Cheers.
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Replies:
Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:28pm
Replying to myself...
Fuel quality is good. Fuel flow is good. Manifold bolts are not loose. I tried spraying carb cleaner around the intake and no change. I have not ruled out the manifold, but I don't think i can do any further checks without pulling it off.
Thanks.
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Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 4:54pm
Well, the first thing that came to my mind was bad fuel, but if you think the fuel is good and okay with no water in it, the second thing that comes to my mind would be a sticky exhaust valve. On occasions it hangs up at higher rpm causing the backfire through the exhaust. Maybe a dash of Marvel Mystery oil would do the trick if its a sticky valve. Could possibly be a bum condenser to. If it ran great for a while, it's probably somethin' dumb. Usually the stupid stuff makes ya crazy.... Steve@B&B
------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:17pm
Installed new points, condenser, 12v coil, ignition wires, spark plugs, and set valve lash and it was no better. Timing set with a light.
well you got most of the bases covered.. Sticking valve might be a place to look..Distributor point is set a .020 inch.. If the shaft is moving .015 inch, that changes the timing and could be the backfire.. Guess some of it is if the .020 gap was set WITH the .015 or Against the .015 or in the center ??? That might change the fire.... you would think staking the bushing would have helped if it was the distributor ??
never underestimate the poor quality of new point / condenser / coil.. you dont have an inline resistor on the power like to the coil ??
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:27pm
Ugh…jd all I can say is I’ve had so much point and condenser (new) trouble that I’ll never use any make except for blue streak and even with them last fall I had a bad set! Same backfiring I remember it blew the rain capn off my ‘45 through the ceiling!
------------- Blue Skies and Tail Winds Dana
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Posted By: jvin248
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:42pm
.
When you said barky and louder after the good day of running fine ... Is there soot all over the manifold side of the engine?
The 52 WD I got last year was barky when I got it too (no back firing though) also flames out the stack in the dark. I replaced the original horizontal tube manifold with a new WD45 style 'W' (to give better air flow for more power in WD45, which can't hurt WD, but really is the only one available aftermarket), new manifold to block seals, and a new muffler. Tractor runs a lot smoother now plus quieter. There was a good bit of blow by at the manifold to block sealing surfaces before, I suspected air leakage involved for the poorer running.
I did a quick before/after video .. maybe you'll hear something useful for your situation. The manifold to block seals are pretty inexpensive and getting the manifold off was not as bad a job as I feared/expected (manifold nuts got a few days of penetrant on them). The 'warbling' is the radiator fan blowing on the phone mic, didn't realize that until afterward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=altySE5s2G0" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=altySE5s2G0
The other thing I'd check is wet spark plug wires (if cracks in the insulation) due to the problem appearing after the cold snow and I've heard a lot of people getting bad condensers fresh out of the box. They are really just a capacitor and capacitors are not much more sophisticated than laying a strip of aluminum foil over a strip of wax paper and rolling them into a can.
.
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Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 5:43pm
check for good fuel flow from sediment bowl to carb see if you can open the main jet sounds like it might be leaning out
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2022 at 8:35pm
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:20am
If you're seeing 15 thou of slop in the distributor shaft, it will NOT run nicely.
Rebush the distributor. Make certain the spring in your points is really good and firm, and make certain you've got a good condenser... or take the points and condenser out and install an electronic kit (like the Pertronix)...
But get that slop out of the shaft... that makes the timing very unstable, and it will miss often.
------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 3:12am
JD, what is causing your various plugs to missfire at random? mmm..... think there are several possible things. Top one to me would be condenser, but then again you talked about it running fine day before but not after it snowed so... maybe you have condensation moisture running spark around inside your cap, or jumping on carbon trackings... so wipe the cap out and spray it with WD40 and spray top of coil too.
It could be the fact that it needs a resistor in line to the coil .... I fought with a D17 for two years trying to get it to run right. Blamed it on the fuel and fuel system and go thru it and not have it run any better then would go thru the ignition system... new points, new cap. new rotor, new condenser, clean the points, clean the plugs, check the wires, Started to take notice that the points seemed to be the most problem and cleaning them would allow me to run for the next x minutes. I bought a brand new coil to throw in it but had a GM resister sitting in my electric box that day and wired it in and cleaned the points once more and that was the first time it worked all day without trouble.
As for fuel issues, I had a time once that I had to drain 'good' fuel out of the carb, sediment bowl and tank, (less than 5 gallons) and put new fuel (not from farm storage tank) in tractor and it would started right up after that even on the coldest days. For some reason summer gas doesn't work very good in winter... or so it seemed back then. Even this fall when temps went down to 20 degrees after a rain the 170 would not start. cranked and cranked, choke and no choke... even sprayed ether in and nothing. Got WD40 spray can and sprayed ignition coil and dist cap and climbed on, turned the key and it came to life. Don't ask me what truly was stopping it from starting, but might have been the frozen moisture and dirt on the coil. But can tell you that it wasn't starting as nice as it should have until I filled its tank with new gas from town. So in essence you could be experiencing fuel AND spark issues too like I have had.
Sloppy dist shaft don't help either.
Good luck.
------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 6:07am
Wow, so many
replies! Amazing.
I have added fresh
fuel to the tank about 3 times, as I have been working the tractor, and I have run
the fuel from an auxiliary fuel tank with fresh fuel, just to rule out water in
the tank. I have perfect flow down to
the carb, and if I remove the bowl drain, then it will continue to run fuel as
fast as it can get through the float valve.
Sticking exhaust valve:
I did adjust the valve lash, and ran the engine with the cover off. Everything seemed to be in good shape, but
that doesn’t mean a valve can’t be hanging up intermittently. Hopefully I didn’t burn an exhaust valve, I
don’t really want to pull the head. The
only reason I don’t think it’s a valve, is because it did seem to be intermittent
at first, and I can see the spark dropping out when clipping the timing light
to any of the ignition wires.
I have two condensers,
one of which is brand new. Both seem to
run the same. It’s possible they are
both junk, but unlikely? I agree with
the comments on the points though, they seem to be poor quality. The heel has already worn off half way and
they kept losing their gap. But I suspect
this may be accelerated by a worn bushing.
I do not have any
resister on the coil, since I installed a 12v coil, and am running a 12v battery.
There is no soot on
the engine. It’s a freshly painted
orange tractor, and there is no sign of any exhaust blowing out from the
manifold gasket. I don’t think it could
be a manifold leak, because in my experience, a manifold leak will run okay at
higher RPM, but won’t idle. Mine seems
to be the opposite.
I can really hear a
difference in the tone of the engine when I play with the timing as well. At idle, it will smooth out when I advance it
too far. And it gets louder and barkier
the more I retard the timing. My dad
thought my muffler baffles were rotted out, but when it’s running properly, it’s
much quieter.
Hoping my dad will be
able to grab me a set of points from his parts bin this week, and I will try
that. Also need to look into getting a
new distributor bushing, or a replacement distributor. Until then, I’m going to try another compression
check, just in case a valve is hanging open or burned, that might tell me something.
I appreciate all the
ideas. I’ll post back when I figure out
something… good or bad…
Thanks so much.
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 1:14pm
Just because coil is marked 12V, does that mean a 12 volt system without resister or 12 volt system with a resister...? Early D17 tractors came with no resistor and later D17's had a resister and started better in real cold weather.
------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 2:07pm
That's a good point. The coil I bought is the replacement for the original Delco 1115043. Based on my research, I understand this coil is 3 ohms, and 40k volts, which should be what I need for a 12 volt system with no resistor. Correct me please if I am wrong.
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 3:44pm
Checked compression this afternoon. I got 60 PSI on all cylinders, but that being said, my gauge has a bad seal at the block, so it doesn't tend to read full pressure. But it was consistent, which hopefully rules out valves.
Also cranked engine with cap off to check points were still firing. It's dark in the barn, and noticed some sparking between coil body and the retaining ring for the coil. Not sure if this is because there was no load (spark plugs) or if something goofy is going on with the coil. I removed the coil and set it up on a block of wood away from anything metal... it didn't improve it's running condition. {sigh}
My dad is going to pull the whole distributor off his WD on Friday and let me test it out. Hopefully that rules out a few things.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 4:22pm
Jake , is sounds like your a good mechanic and have a lot of ideas and things to look into. Keep us posted on what you find.. Some of these HIDDEN problems can be hard to find when they are not constant.
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 6:25pm
If the dist. cap is perfect you don't have sparks jumping there but I have had faulty coils act like that. Running good at idle but not when speeding up could also be a broken valve spring but the problem sounds bigger than one cylinder and if a spring goes you wouldn't have more than one overnight. It will be interesting to hear when you find the problem. Recently I had one that would start and run perfect for a handful of minutes and die. Restart the next day was perfect again. It turned out to be too much resistance in 'the hinge' on the points,,, an easy fix in the end.
------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 8:10pm
When it is pitch dark in the barn, crank it up and watch for jumping fire. MACK
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Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 10:37pm
I had a loose coil wire once that kind of ran like that.
------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa,
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 6:13am
Thanks for all the ideas guys. The coil is new, but that doesn't mean it's good! Coils that are bad tend to get worse the longer the engine is running. This seems to be terrible right off the bat.
Looking for arching in the dark I think is a good way to find faults. I got called for supper last night and had to walk away from it. But I'd like to do a very careful once over of the distributor again and make certain there isn't any funny business.
I will definitely let you know when I get it solved... however long that might take me!
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Posted By: LittleB
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 4:55pm
I had a problem with my B that confounded me for the longest time. It would only run good for a limited time, then stall. When I would remove the plugs they would be black. I rebuilt the carb leaned it out to no avail. Because it stalled when hot I installed new coil, points and condensor. Stiil had same problem. My last resort after referencing this site was to replace this new condensor. Wa La it runs like a dream now. It just wasn't getting enough bang at the plugs. Different circumstance but possible the same outcome.
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Posted By: AllisFreak MN
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 5:19pm
I had the same issue with my D17 and it ended up being the condenser. It was frustrating for sure. Bad one right out of the box.
------------- '49 A-C WD, '51 A-C WD, '63 A-C D17 Series III, 1968 A-C One-Seventy, '82 A-C 6060, '75 A-C 7040, A-C #3 sickle mower, 2 A-C 701 wagons, '78 Gleaner M2
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Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 6:27pm
Just another thought but highly doubt that this is the trouble, but some
40 years ago was planting corn with the old D17 and it started missing
and died. started right up and put the load to it and died... and then
there was no starting up. Spark to the cap, non beyond that. Got a
different rotor and put it in, snapped the cap on and went back to
planting. The rotor was not stopping the spark from grounding out to the
distributor shaft.
------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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Posted By: dr p
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 7:22pm
You know you have one problem, a worn distributor bushing. Sherlock Holmes said if you remove the impossible, the highly unlikely becomes probable. Before you drive yourself crazy thinking you have multiple bad new parts, fix the bushing, then reevaluate.
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Posted By: Pat the Plumber CIL
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 9:13pm
Blue streak ,Echlin brand available at Napa for points and condenser. Autolite plugs .
------------- You only need to know 3 things to be a plumber;Crap rolls down hill,Hot is on the left and Don't bite your fingernails
1964 D-17 SIV 3 Pt.WF,1964 D-15 Ser II 3pt.WF ,1960 D-17 SI NF,1956 WD 45 WF.
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Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 7:08am
jd, Sounds like your going to figure this out. Process of elimination will get you there. Frustrating sometimes but from your knowledge it sounds like you will solve the riddle. Good luck and welcome to the Allis Forum. Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 7:53am
Hey all,
Thanks very much for all of the feedback so far. Troubleshooting can certainly be frustrating. I have been waiting to get my dad to pull the dizzy off his WD, but weather has slowed things down.
So in the meantime, I decided to start from scratch last night. I started by removing the coil lead, and jumped it to ground, nice 1/2 inch long blue spark. Points are bright blue. Started it up, running like crap, and looked for arching (in the dark barn). Didn't find anything out of the ordinary. Got called for supper after that.
This morning I thought i'd have another look. Started by taking an ohm reading across the coil. 1.2 ohms! This is supposed to be a 12 volt coil at 3 ohms and 40k volts. I swapped it out with a spare coil from the back of one of my cars, it measured 3.2 ohms, which is in spec.
The tractor fired up and seems to be running great. It now will actually allow me to get past 1/4 throttle. I revved it up and down a few times, and it seemed smooth. It was just cobbled together, but later today I will get it wired properly, reset the timing, and point gap, tune the carb back in, and keep my fingers firmly crossed.
Seems to me if the coil resistance is low, then spark could be too hot, and burn the points, or cause arching internally? But if it is faulty, then who knows what happens to the resistance when it's under load. Disappointing for a brand new coil, but beats the hell out of burnt valves!
After that, I am trying to decide if I should try and get the distributor bushing replaced, or if it would be easier/cheaper to just install the pentronix unit. Seems to be working fine with a bit of slop in it, so I have some time. But I'll probably call down to my machine shop and see if they offer the service, and get a quote.
Again, thanks to everyone. A very valuable wealth of knowledge. Much appreciated, and hopefully I don't post back in a day or two saying "nevermind, not fixed"!
Cheers,
JD
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 9:01am
Quick update:
Set points, timing, carb and went off for a drive. Went a half mile down to my brother's farm and back, 100% better. It died once, but that was my fault for not turning the fuel on. There is a slight hickup which I am sure is from the wobble in the distributor shaft. Other than that, I couldn't ask for more.
Thanks again.
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 9:29am
normally when you buy a new coil, it will say "INTERNAL RESISTOR" either on the BOX or printed on the side of the coil... ????
or as you mentioned, it might just be "new junk"..
------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: jdschwass
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 9:41am
New junk as far as I can tell. As I mentioned, the spec is 3 ohms for this coil based on the cross reference number. No resistor required. Also, it worked flawlessly for about a week and a half of mowing, moving snow, grading, etc. Seemed to become an intermittent flaw, and then complete failure.
Funny how the Chinese coil lasts 10 hours, and the British TR6 coil it's running now has been working for 45 years...
EDIT: just wanted to point out that I was mowing pasture and blowing snow in the same week... welcome to Canada!
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Posted By: Eric B
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 12:16pm
My brother had one of these distributors refurbished about a month ago. The upper bushing was decent but the shaft was terribly worn, about 1/8 diameter smaller. The tractor had been OK up to that point with a Pertronix ignition kit but finally would not function and no wonder. He had a new shaft machined, using the shaft from a Chrysler oil pump. It's all great again but I think it cost $100 CDN at the machine shop.
------------- Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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Posted By: allischalmerguy
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2022 at 12:25pm
jdschwass wrote:
Quick update:
Set points, timing, carb and went off for a drive. Went a half mile down to my brother's farm and back, 100% better. It died once, but that was my fault for not turning the fuel on. There is a slight hickup which I am sure is from the wobble in the distributor shaft. Other than that, I couldn't ask for more.
Thanks again. |
Way to go!!!
------------- It is great being a disciple of Jesus! 1950 WD, 1957 D17...retired in Iowa,
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Posted By: exSW
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2022 at 1:43pm
Crap imported ignition parts. A few years back I bought a mixed box of points,condensers and what have you at an old long closed school bus garage. All NOS. Guy asked me why I bought that junk. I've dove into that box a couple times. Always a good part.
------------- Learning AC...slowly
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