Agco pulling tractor engine ??????
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Topic: Agco pulling tractor engine ??????
Posted By: DougG
Subject: Agco pulling tractor engine ??????
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2022 at 1:52pm
| Im bored ,,Tossing around ideas of putting together an Agco puller, curious on ideas of an engine that will fit the bill for around the 8500 lb class - pro stock, something that can be built for some what reliable - go with Detroit, Deutz or Navistar ? Im sure there will be out side of the box questions - just wanting to know of expericence , if any, thanks for any info |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2022 at 5:02pm
| Real Pro-Stocks are single turbo (unlimited size). 24.5 x 32 tires, 680 cubes max and 10,000 lbs. The brand that dominates this class is John Deere big block power. When you say 8500 lbs Pro-Stock are you talking a 4.1 inch turbo inlet and maybe 466 max cubes??? |
Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2022 at 5:54pm
| Mr. Doug G you ask alot of questions and ideas for all your projects have you got any complete? |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2022 at 12:34pm
| Why thanks for being very obsevant ! Always like these girs ,, lol,, Yes I have got a sweet XT , One Eighty, and D21 all up and going , I doing ask alot of questions and always like to hear what ppl have done ,as expirence is key - have got great advise from you - thanks - for that, I always like to do all I can myself - I never give someone an open checkbook like others do , Ill always be true to Allis - but gotta stay competative too, as in Agco Allis, this pulling forum gets boring with nobody posting ,,, so thats another reason I ask questions and will be posting alot more !!!!!! Get ready !!!! LOL |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2022 at 7:02pm
| I see a lot of talk about using Cummins and Detroit engines in pullers. Do Pro Stock rules allow using engines other than original equipment ? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2022 at 7:46am
| Most of the National organizations do. Cummins and Dertoit series 40 (which is 100% a Navistar engine) were used in new AGCO/White models and therefore are called a replacement engine. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2022 at 2:56pm
| This would never be in the national stuff,, just in Mid Missouri fellas, that big money is spent dumb = unless a tax deduction ! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2022 at 4:56pm
| But, you've never specified WHAT Pro-Stock class??? 466 cubes with 4.1 turbo inlet at 8500 lbs ?? |
Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2022 at 6:21pm
|
For 10k pro stock I would use a 40 series like that’s In The young tractor to my knowledge that’s what they are using. Correct me if I’m wrong. If it’s a 540 CI class I would try and stay with AC because I’m a true ac guy. That be a allis 426 block dt466 crank “5.35 stroke” and a 4.625 bore with a recast head if allowed. That’s My 2 cents |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2022 at 6:52pm
|
I know of a guy that made a N-7 engine into a super farm puller, stated he could get head to flow over 400 cfm on flow bench, doesnt get much better. What about Sisu??? ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 8:03am
|
My preference would be the 8.3L Cummins, Kevin Engleking is getting his White Ltd Pro dialed in pretty good, and Bob Himes has a recast head for them too. I like being a little different, most are going to the "detroit" just an IH engine lol! The Detroit 40 series that were used in Agco Allis tractors is a very different engine than the older International Harvester design. Many are just running an IHC engine not the Navistar/Detroit version. Proven, yes, just like everyone else, no thanks lol! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: bsallis180
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 8:07am
| Ed is any information on the 8.3 for the bottom end? Knew earlier days they had issues keeping them together with high combustion pressures. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 8:18am
| The Detroit series 40/Navistar engines had a much different cylinder head on them. Intake air went in the top of the valve cover and no intake manifold on the left side. So, my question is are those newer Navistar engines bolting on an older IH cylinder head ?? Or are they using the newer design head that came with the engine ?? |
Posted By: ACFarmer
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 11:45am
A 466 IH head bolts right on. All the important things line up, but not all of the water jackets. That's what I run. I have heard of a few guys working with the factory style heads and they are starting to get some good numbers out of them now though. ------------- Making A living everyday farming with and working on Allis Equipment |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 12:23pm
| Good to know. I always assumed the head bolt pattern probably stayed the same, as it seems a change like that affects the build cost of any new engine Your engine is metric hardware, correct ?? |
Posted By: ACFarmer
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 5:30pm
Yes, 40 series is metric hardware. ------------- Making A living everyday farming with and working on Allis Equipment |
Posted By: brad durst
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 6:52pm
| so is the bellhousing pattern the same on the dt 466 and the 40 detroit the. if you had both engines setting beside each other with the dt 466 head on how do you tell the difference. thanks in advance |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:06pm
| I remember the injection pump sitting up much higher on the Detroit series 40 (and it's Navistar brother) from the early to mid 1990's. The MW in-line pump was almost as high as the valve cover. |
Posted By: brad durst
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:18pm
| thanks. can that all be changed buy bolting the front plate and timing cover of the dt on the 40. or does that require machining |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:25pm
| Don't know. I seem to remember an extra idler gear in the front end to get the pump raised up. |
Posted By: brad durst
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:40pm
| oh ok. do you know if the bell housing is the same. crankshaft bolt pattern ect. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 12:37pm
The IHC engines did use an MW or A pump, and pump rotation was CW. The new generation Navistar engines, which is what the Detroit 40 series is, as well as Perkins 1300 series, all I've seen had a P pump and it is CCW rotation, and mounted up high. Obviously this pertains to the PLN (pump, line, nozzle) Systems. In Navistar branding, it was offered in 408 (school busses) 466, 530, 570 CID. In 40 series branding, I have only seen 466 and 530. Sorry Brad, I do not know if rear of engine is same as IHC engines. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: ACFarmer
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 8:35am
They do, I run a custom front cover to put the pump down in what I call a "normal" spot. ------------- Making A living everyday farming with and working on Allis Equipment |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2022 at 6:33am
| Went to the Cowtown finals yesterday- only Allis there was a D 21 and it had a 5,9 Cummins- seemed an 8,3 L would be better in that one, but there again, not sure of the class as they did not go in the pulling order of itinerary and the cubic inch limit may have been close with the 5,9 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2022 at 7:01am
| What class was it ?? Small Cummins gets used in that 410 cubic inch or less class. 8.3 is too big. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 9:33am
| To clear this up - it was the 6000 light pro field class 361 ci engine limit, so the 5.9 Cummins was perfect- just seeing a 21 I was expecting a bigger engine- and sometimes i type before i think ! Lol, |
Posted By: orangefor life
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 6:21pm
|
Dr Allis Would you have tips on my 190xt to boost the power. Looking to pull in the farm classes. Just stock off the farm. What the biggest inj nozzle can i put in the 301ci an maybe teak the pump a little Thanks I watch you talk an have enjoy listening to you
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:30pm
| I'd have more questions, but I'll tell you what I did for a friend back in 1977. He had a series three 190XT that he farmed with, and he too wanted to do a couple of county fairs thru the summer months. I installed a set of 7080 injector tips (set at 2500-2800 psi), bottomed out the leaf spring inside the injection pump (done by removing the pumps top cover) and turned up the high idle to 2800 RPM. Now, he still used it on the farm like that. We would turn the torque screw in to bring it down to no more than 100 HP at 2,200 RPM. The extra high idle was never used on the farm, only on the track. He got along fine and never tried pulling equipment any bigger than what he already had. It's been a long time, but I think it would dyno 150 HP set up like that. Since those early days, I have made several water/alcohol injection systems, spraying the mixture into the air stream inside the air cleaner can. Out of sight, a trigger switch on the throttle so it turns on when you go the last inch on the throttle lever. That was usually good for another 30 to 40 HP. In the 80's I set up a One-Eighty with a pump and injectors made for pulling. He would swap those parts every summer and then swap back in the fall with the farming parts. Turbo was off of a 200 or 7000 tractor and it stayed the same year round. Water/Alcohol injection was used too. We felt his probably ran 220 to 240 HP.I also had another customer in the 1990's that we just turned his XT up to similar numbers (130-140) and he managed to rip the transmission to pieces because he was sure he could manage all the Xtra power without issue when farming with it. I can also tell you stories of people who went to all the work to make the engine run well and get to the county fair and have the foot clutch or power director clutch slip and make zero use of the Xtra HP they added. It's a hobby I have participated in for 50 plus years and most of the time enjoyed it. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 May 2022 at 8:57pm
| Then, there was the time when I was an A-C company rep that I "loaned" my own DM-4 pulling pump and four-hole .020" injectors to a dealer that he installed on a 7060 with a fresh/tightened down torque limiter. Tractors owner wanted to beat his Father-in-law's John Deere at the county fair in front of a crowd. Mission accomplished. |
Posted By: orangefor life
Date Posted: 04 May 2022 at 5:36pm
| Thanks for ideals sound like i try some of them your the man. |
Posted By: orangefor life
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 4:58pm
|
What size nozzle did you use at what mix of water an alc at what pressure or was it sol vale an let intake suck it in? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 6:05pm
| I always used a windshield washer tank (with internal pump) from a Ford vehicle. Their system always sprayed steady, while some old GM vehicles pulsated. The goal is absolutely no more than 12 OUNCES flow in 30 seconds time. You can do it with an old carburetor jet, or anything that you can drill out or size to the exact flow. I have also used a simple field sprayer nozzle with a cone or flat fan pattern as there are different sizes of jets. Direct the spray right into the air stream in the air cleaner canister. Nozzle should be above the tank so gravity doesn't let it leak out. This gives some time for the mixture to atomize somewhat before going into the engine. "Polar" brand windshield washer fluid is what we always used around here. You don't want to turn it on until you are going down the track and where the engine is getting loaded (NOT LUGGED DOWN). As I said I always had a trigger switch on the throttle to trip when the throttle was given the last inch of travel. When completing the pull, you always pull back on the throttle just enough to kill the water/alky injection for a second or two and then slowly take it down to probably 1500-1800 RPM to finish burning anything left drizzling. You CANNOT let the engine lug down or even worse KILL IT !!!!! If you think she's going down for the count (you were in too fast of gear) pull back on the throttle an inch to shut things OFF !!!! You are on your own. Maybe start with 8 ounces to test things. One of the funniest things that happened on my old 220 back in the late 1980's was a night pull at the county fair. 4,000 people in the grandstands. My driver was very capable and he kept easing into the throttle in 6th gear and at about the 180 ft mark the red fire started to come out the exhaust pipe, at 220 feet it was 6 inches tall and at 222 feet the fire disappeared, the front wheels raised up about a foot and out past 300 feet he went !! I was sitting in the stands with my wife and young kids. Two veteran farmers were sitting in front of me and one said to the other " what just happened there?? I saw fire and then it went away and now he's out past 300 feet in the lead"??? |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 05 May 2022 at 10:50pm
| That's a good one Doc !! |