I purchased my Fiat-Allis 11B tractor with serial number 25L 1910 8 and would like to know when it was actually manufactured if able. I've been told 1975 but there have been inconsistencies with that serial number as to year of build.

Thanks in advance.

Thanks Dave. 1974 was the other year it was assumed to be but by that book you cite, it has to be into the 1975 year if serial numbers are sequential to build.

At the present we are carrying on an estranged relationship, but hope to soon become very close. She is kind of cold and uncompromising, but I like it that way.

Thanks again,

i have heard they can be tough to get parts for but this one doesn't really need anything at the present. It may not in my tenure as it will only get limited and easy use.

I have access to two parts chassis if needed in the future as they are not going anyplace, but neither is operational. 

But they continued as Fiat Allis 11-B  until 1977.

Highest serial ive seen is 19612

Got me wondering if the ones I seen were unsold examples or something. I well remember them along with the European designed tractors which were more mainstream these days. They were more of a brownish gray, or orange color than the construction yellow of the older models. Also remember the black lettering and it changing to white although didn't know why till I asked a friends dad that worked there.

I have a lunch date with a couple of friends and families that worked the Springfield, IL plant in the 1970's and 80's and one was there till it closed. He built final drives till the parts ran out and was laid off. The other retired at plant closing. I ran with both party's boys when much younger, and we've kept in touch through the years.  

Cheers Merv

I would doubt there would be any records as both were production type employees and not administrative in nature. When we get together I'll ask some questions about the tractors and builds. There may be some information there, and I'll try to find out.

I thought I read someplace online the 11B series was produced up into the early 1980's; but, I've slept since then so forgotten where I read it.

Lazyts wrote: For some reason the serial number record in Swinford's book for 11-B was incomplete.  Seems that Roosa Master pump was fitted at S/n 18799, January 1975.  Mark 2 engine was fitted at 19335, i'm guessing around a year later.  11-B discontinued early 1977, so likely ended around 19600 range.  Highest I've seen here is 19590- last ones had a muffler under the hood.  Fiat take-over was January 1974.

Mine has the Roosa-Master "DC" injection pump. I don't really know much about Allis engines and assume it's the Mark 2 series you mention. Originally, and as built did not have a muffler; only a vertical straight pipe for exhaust.

Only thing I really know is it sure starts and runs well.

16B continued to be produced after the 11B was discontinued.  I've heard from two different sources that the last 16Bs were "blown out" with no warranty around 1981-82, when the Springfield plant was closing.

Thanks. Those dates sound about right. The economy was very bad in that time frame and I took a job hauling The State Journal-Register newspapers to local, rural, and surrounding towns for distribution. I did this most of 1981, and a good portion of 1982 traveling on the bordering streets of S. 11th street, Stevenson Drive, and S. Sixth street daily.  It was during this time I passed the plant on the way to, and from work. In the mid 1970's there was equipment all over the plant grounds; by the early 1980's, not so much and old inventory was sitting. That is why I remember these tractors setting idle for so long.

It was still that way at the end of 1984 when I left the area to go into the military. Once I discharged four years later, the plant was gone altogether.

I don't know what happened to the Iranian dozers. The plastic preservative wrap long rotted off of them and they sat exposed for a long time. I do think they were still there when I left the area so the ultimate disposition, I don't know, but maybe I can find out.

I watched that video and can only positively identify the Springfield, IL plant exterior from a very small segment starting at 37 seconds to about 41 seconds into the presentation. Many of the landmarks are present although the segment is far from what it was in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Many of the assembly and machining segments are definitely Springfield but you wouldn't know if not having been there. The video sure was interesting, but jumps around a lot. And yes, F-A was all over the globe in those days as the North American markets were collapsing.

I found some interesting information on the Springfield plant but cannot relocate it. I'll keep looking and post up some links.

Went and visited my 11B this afternoon as the poor girl has been evicted from her indoor storage. She was wrapped in a blue tarp and we had some very strong winds earlier in the week which destroyed that. I did some measuring for a replacement and brought both 4D batteries home to get them on a maintainer so they don't set dormant any longer.

I ordered up a couple of much heavier duty plastic tarps yesterday evening and will pick them up today to get the machine recovered. Only the operator station is open to weather right now. The former owner used a 20'X30' tarp and it covered most of the tractor very well so I ordered the same. Also ordered a 25'X40' but won't see it till later. I do have several "corner guards" such as used in semi trailer work to protect from sharp edges. I think the ROPS edges are actually what done the original tarp in. I also have a couple dozen new rubber straps for binding the covering tarp.

I'll have the machine uncovered and will shoot a few photos later in the day. It will once again be kept inside at my shop so don't want to spend a fortune on a temporary covering. I have ordered a couple of steer tires for my semi tractor and I'll bring the dozer home shortly after they are installed.

Had lunch with the guys on Saturday. Not really a lot of information available citing aforementioned production employees. However, one buddy formerly assembled components and he tells me very near the end they were robbing parts from unsold, and unfinished tractors to complete the builds of ordered units. The reason being parts supplies were exhausted. There were also instances at the end where incomplete tractors were sent/shipped to purchasers for final, and minor assembly which was assumed to be servicing dealers, or broken into parts supplies?

No word on the Iranian dozers which were mostly "FD series" models. They were still there when the plant closed and all production employees laid off.

One of the guys told me either he, or one other gent would have built up the final drives in my tractor. I don't really know if there would be a way to ascertain this kind of depth but it was interesting for sure. Cheap entertainment as they say. Regardless there weren't too many that built finals and in the timeframe my dozer was built, he was in that work center.

On a sad note I also learned one of the boys I ran with passed with cancer a few years back and I had no idea.

All in all a nice time and good to see folks again.

Fully load tested the group 4D batteries by placing a load onto them till they dropped to 22VDC, (series wired) and then recharged to 1.255 specific gravity, (averaged) between all cells. One battery was manufactured in May, 2017, and the other June, 2021 and the former tests to about 83% capacity of the latter using a 25A load and measuring RC. I am going to place another 25A load upon them again and reapply another equalizing charge to final evaluate the performance. Ultimately, I'll most likely install new batteries when the tractor goes into service and use the existing in another tractor using the same size.

Very high winds of late have once again destroyed my tarping scenario so this time have purchased a polypropylene tarp which is much stronger (and $$$) than the polyethylene types used originally.

It was a genuine SOB tarping the last time in light winds so taking a helper today and going to "hog tie" the tractor good.

Thanks guys. I'll attempt to post up a few photos I took about an hour ago:

27F outside and the tractor hasn't been started in about a month. It cranked about 30 seconds and then started firing and about four to five seconds after letting the starter button loose, it was running smoothly on all six cylinders.

Here she is all packaged and awaiting pickup from the postal service, (LOL):

Oh man, me neither on tarps holding up to the wind. This is just a temporary measure as the tractor hasn't seen any outdoor storage in over 20 years I know of. This latest tarp is polypropylene and 11mil thick. From appearance and feel it is very heavy. I ran cardboard edge protectors around the perimeter of the ROPS and several layers Gorilla taped any sharp edges the tarp will bear against. The tarp is bungee strapped to the tracks or underpinnings. Best part is, (and the reason I purchased this one) is Menard's warrants the tarp for five years against tearing. They are quite liberal in their coverage and easy to work with so this should work well until I get the tractor inside my shop building for it's inside storage.

This is the one I used and am initially quite pleased with it:

https://www.menards.com/main/tools/automotive/towing-cargo-management/tarps-accessories/yardworks-reg-xpo-green-industrial-duty-tarp/xpo2030/p-1570516240286.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.menards.com/main/tools/automotive/towing-cargo-management/tarps-accessories/yardworks-reg-xpo-green-industrial-duty-tarp/xpo2030/p-1570516240286.htm

Thanks Merv;

Hope in a couple of weeks just after the new year to bring the tractor home. New business insurance goes into effect then and I'll be able to use my truck and trailer again. Far too expensive to license and insure a semi tractor as an "extra" vehicle and have it set around.

Tony, (former owner) doesn't mind it staying right there as long as needed not being in his way at all. It really was a surprise how easily the engine started, and then smoothed out given the temperature. No blue smoke at all. The first start mentioned in the video lasted only long enough to raise the blade six inches to pull the destroyed tarp out from underneath; so the engine start you see was still cold.

Granddaughter let the cat out of the bag by telling me I'm getting a "GoPro" camera for Christmas so hope to post up some videos from the operator seat sometime.

More later.

Thanks,

Hog tied "Alli-Kat":

Looking on ebay tonight I seen this brochure and it clearly shows a tractor which looks just like mine branded Allis-Chalmers. I was thinking the single upper track carrier roller was implemented after the 1974 Fiat-Allis name changeover, but that clearly is not the case with this brochure. I also see on the side the HD 11 Series B script. I very much was under the impression these more "square nosed" crawlers were never available under the Allis-Chalmers branding but this brochure seems to disprove that?

So, would it be considered "sacrilegious" to alter the appearance of my tractor and rebrand it using the correct font and colors as before the  Allis-Chalmers/Fiat merger? I plan to blast and repaint the tractor regardless. 

It only got Fiats name planted on it after the 1974 merger and after s/n 18798; they start at 16000.

The first 11-B definetly had 2 upper rollers but were changed soon after to one, by simply moving the forward roller pedestal back to the rear pedestal bolt holes

If she was mine, it would have AC logos, my 10 cents worth 

Thanks Merv, you and I share the same sentiments. I'm decided to "rebrand" in AC logos but will retain the s/n tag on the bulkhead. Will probably paint over the top of the riveted tag however.

My buddies in Springfield did tell me the tractor is 100% AC engineering, but I didn't think to ask anything about the sheet metal being squared up, or logos.

Thanks kindly

Talked to the young lady whom has done my sign lettering for years and she actually has the correct AC corporate logo in her database in three different sizes. We will scale this to fit and match the font once the tractor is at the shop. She will need to order a cut sheet of the Persian Orange color rather than use an orange color on hand. I don't mind the expense to have it correct.

I should mention I am missing the panel that the operator handle protrudes through for blade operation. Neither parts chassis has the needed panel as the one tractor that has the tilt blade also had a ripper and the whole valve block is gone as is the ripper. The other chassis was an angle blade and it's panel is MIA also. The parts manual shows this panel, but it appears to be only for a straight fore and aft moving operator handle. I don't know if the panel just has an large opening in the center, or is closed with a rubber boot, (nothing like listed) but I can't believe it's just open like that exposing all the linkage from the build. I think I'd be better with a photo of what it actually looks like. Attached is the only photo I have of the operator station and it is very low resolution but you can see the opening this panel would cover:

Found one of the open hole:

From the parts manual. Item #12 which I don't think looks correct:

This seems to be the only access panel missing from the tractor.

The tarp seems to be holding up very well as the tractor is dry under where it is covered. We were lambasted with high winds, rain/sleet, and snow on Saturday, and everything is still intact.

Thanks guys,

Thank you  Steve. I didn't see any mounting holes or threads that were empty at all; and this was confusing. I was thinking the complete top panel differed with my tractor from the book. Panel #11 in the photo appears to be a vertical orientation where panel #12 is where it transitioned to the horizontal plane which I do have in place.

Although it would make no difference I can easily close this hole up with a rubber gearshift selector boot. I'm surprised to learn this would have been proper from the build without some type of enclosure.

Thanks again.

Thanks Eric, really appreciate you speaking up as it's got me to thinking. I haul things for a former Allis-Chalmers dealer whom started in 1949 and are still around through the various changes over the years. I asked them and now realize there are two shades of orange AC used over the years. One is "corporate" orange, the other "Persian", orange. Myself never really being up close and personal with AC equipment did not realize this and thought there was only the "Persian" orange color. However, looking in the upstairs storeroom, it is plain to see there were two different shades used.

This is an NOS part of some kind from the 1970's and the box hasn't seen sunlight in over 40 years:

This is a model tractor from the 1980's which is new and is in the same dark storeroom:

This is a brand new owner's manual:

The place is loaded with things like this the collectors would like to have but nothing is for sale.

It's easy to see the difference in the colors on the boxes especially with that tractor which is not faded. Looking online I see where the AC logo I'm chasing is marketed in both aforementioned colors and I'll probably go with the brighter of the two which is the Persian orange. This just because it will stand out better on the side of the tractor. On another note I called one of my friends in Springfield, IL and he tells me he actually has one of the logos that would have been installed onto the tractor and I'm welcome to borrow it for reproduction if needed. I understand he would have been one installing these at one time. Doesn't remember if he has the Allis-Chalmers script or not, but going to look. It would be so much easier and no guesswork if originals can be rounded up to work with.

Here is a snip from the above posted brochure and to my eye, it looks to be the "corporate" orange color for the "C" of the logo? Do you see it that way also?

It is this logo I'm interested in emulating.

I see a lot of folks with restored antique Allis-Chalmers equipment, but it's all agriculture related. Having this tractor I may start delving into these construction type shows also.

Thanks for the assist as it helps get the motivation going.

Thanks for the help. 

Thanks kindly. I'm learning for sure. When I was a kid and traveling between St. Louis, Mo, and Springfield, Il I well remember both orange and yellow tractors on the plant grounds. Far too young then and not really from a farming background, never took interest. Never realized there were two orange colors till attempting to replicate this logo. 

Most of the family farm equipment I was around was either J.I. Case, Oliver, or Minneapolis-Moline with John Deere having a very limited presence. The balers were either AC, Oliver, or Heston from memory.  Me, being more of a 'repairer" type individual was always on call for fixing something broken during use, not actually using the equipment. Back in those days farmers of the area worked together instead of being "all inclusive". I mean one neighbor had a picker, or combine, and another had plows and harvest equipment and they "shared" the expense of farming around. Of course all had tractors as never enough of those to around. 

I deliver a lot of new Simplicity lawn equipment and it's color is still "Persian" orange. 

Thanks,

Let me update this a bit with reasoning:

The intake on my 11000 does not have the wording "Allis-Chalmers" cast into it. It is smooth and clean. I know where there is an older manifold that does have the name and I'll swap them if possible. I don't know if the air entrance from the air cleaner, or turbocharger is the same between the two. The older manifold is from a blown 10000 engine originally in an HD-11 series tractor. I don't want to ship the manifold here to ship it back if it doesn't fit my application.

I could decal, or stencil the letters, but would rather have the raised cast letters so it looks correct. May be important to me only but we're not going to change that.

Thanks,

Decals and materials are ordered from the sign lady. No problem sourcing the "corporate" orange color.

We were sorting through a manual of corporate logos and everything I need was there meaning the AC logo, and all fonts for lettering in the proper ratio and proportion. Even the HD-11 Series B font was there. Replication won't be so difficult after all.

Besides the tag on the bulkhead of the operators compartment, is the serial number of the tractor stamped, or affixed elsewhere? I was able to secure an NOS serial number tag with the silkscreened Allis-Chalmers logo. This to replace the current Fiat-Allis tag. I don't mind restamping the serial number onto the new tag(s).

I talked with the gent whom has the parts chassis. It appears the one chassis that was a p/s type and had the ripper on the back was virtually a duplicate of mine as built with exception of the angle blade and frame. The ripper was added later and when the engine let go the tractor was used as a donor. The engine remains, but also being Fiat-Allis, it doesn't have the intake manifold I'm wanting. The undercarriage is well worn on this tractor but still has many good parts.

So far being unable to locate the proper manifold, I may go with a temporary decal of some sort, but the hunt is on.

Should match the tag on the firewall.

I've got everything coming together nicely. When the weather breaks there is a young lad I have do pressure washing on my wash pad and he does a quite thorough job. After getting the tractor up on cribbing, easily removable panels will come off, the machine washed removing any dirt and grease, masked, grit blasted to bare steel followed by an acid etch/wash and finish painting. While this may sound like a lot, it's what we did routinely before I closed the shop. 

While my scenarios may sound extreme, there is a motivation there to be revealed at a later date. 

Thanks kindly,

That 10000 series engine manifold is incorrect for my application. One of my uncles ran over to the shop where this part is and the placement of the air inlet is more to the rear than mine which is seemingly centered. The hunt continues.

I've never seen any AC dozer of this vintage with a muffler contained under the hood myself. If I have, certainly have never paid any mind.

I talked to the gent who has that brochure I grabbed the picture of earlier today. I'm going to acquire it just to have more than anything. I did a "zoom" of the overhead view in this brochure and it's clear to see that "open hole" exposing the blade operation linkages is normal as earlier relayed. The panels shown in the parts manual are actually behind the control rod and cover the valve block(s) and are clear to be seen. The way it was shown in the diagrams left it unclear to me. Though blurry, all can be seen here with circular identifier "18" partially obscuring the opening:

Running by tomorrow to grab an armrest from the operator compartment, and starting batteries from the tractor to ensure they are "topped up" for later in the week hopefully. I'm wanting to get a material sample from the upholstery for duplication so going to start that process this next week. Granddaughter is getting anxious to work with the seating for me. I think you guys will like her work. 

I seen this video on youtube and it's an old HD-11 with a non turbocharged engine. At 1:52 into the video is a nice clear shot of the engine and it looks as if the air intake port is centered on this manifold to me? Maybe the one I'd mentioned earlier wasn't from an original HD-11 tractor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeS_ah4WXKQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeS_ah4WXKQ

I have located a manifold on a 1972 build HD-11 series B running, and operating tractor. Going to cost me $150.00 and my manifold to cover labor to swap them, but the cost has value to me.

It's coming together nicely. 

Scanning through the parts manual to ascertain what will be needed to swap intake manifolds and I see this later edition manifold w/cast bosses of which has been referenced in the past:

Low and behold, the underhood muffler too:

I've located a couple of dealers with most any soft parts I'd need for the engine but nothing near me. I'm finding much is discontinued in the aftermarket but I'm real accustomed to that with my old Mack trucks, Continental, and Hercules Engines also.

Lined up another job for this tractor on Friday rebuilding a retaining wall that is collapsing, or pushing out. From the explanation it doesn't appear the wall had adequate drainage and was not braced appropriately from the backside prior to backfilling.

Arrived in the mail today. Really nice brochure without any dealership markings:

I think I now have enough information to work with as the brochure has great detail.

Looking over the brochure, looking through the manuals, looking over this and that, along with good conversation, I've received a call from a guy who used to run my dozer for the original owner and happens to remember it quite "fondly" I'll say. He worked for the original purchaser and was for the most part the sole operator of this machine during it's tenure through trade in at the local Caterpillar dealer.

I'm told it was the last Allis unit in inventory and to the best of his knowledge in 1995 the tractor had just over 4500 hours on the meter and the u/c just about worn through after a P&B turn. The engine had never broken down that he remembered and really the only mechanical problems experienced were a radiator from the fan blade carrier bearings failing and taking the core out, and an alternator went bad. A new radiator complete was installed rather than a recore, along with a new reversible cooling fan, along with the original alternator rebuilt by a favored local rebuilder. The "Huber" fan currently mounted matches the parts manual and I assume is a dealer supplied part. The turbocharger was rebuilt also as a suspect part which turned out to be a missed air filter at a service interval. We both got a laugh out of that one.

I'm told this tractor was kept far in excess of normal usage interval because he "liked it" and not being troublesome, was obliged. This I find as very good news. when I asked about it's duties he stated it was mostly on the road construction side so the dozer did a lot of scraper pushing and cleanup which are long and straight jobs without a lot backing up. This would seem to equate to why the undercarriage would go so long, and everything remain so tight on the machine. Also some of the "ribbing" to the moldboard.

I explained my desire to rebrand back to Allis-Chalmers to which he was pleased. This tractor was a replacement for a prior AC HD-11 and was purchased as one of the last "true" AC tractors they'd be able to get with Fiat now in the mix. They knew the 11B was a rebadged HD-11 Series B but he did not like the cab so purchased without. The tractor was found to be getting difficult to source parts for, (undercarriage) and at the end of 1995, it was traded in on a new Caterpillar D5 who installed new chains complete, sprocket segments, a couple of rollers, (don't know which) and front idler bearings. The original selling dealer purchased the tractor back with this work sublet to the Caterpillar dealer. It was then sold to the gent I purchased it from. The undercarriage has a little under 1600 hours on it with his tenure and I estimate with my track gauge for the purpose about 85% remaining on most parts. Grouser bars are at about 75% service remaining which is probably a testament to being used on dirt mostly. Given the tractor was probably left on jobsites, (I didn't think to ask) is probably reason it has the "vandal" protection package installed with all the padlocks.

All that being said, I have ran across something maybe you can help with. In one of the manuals I noticed this logo on the front of a tractor:

You can clearly see "Series B" under the AC corporate logo:

In this photo of which I am emulating with my rebrand, there is no such additional script:

Yet when I look on the face of the brochure the above image was plagiarized from, some tractors show this additional script, some do not:

I'm certainly no purest and has been suggested I'll go my own way, but asking what do you guys think?

In the early morning hours and being bored, I scan through my books and I'm not seeing any magnets, or magnetic drain plugs listed in the power shift transmission part section. I do see magnetic drain plugs in the finals compartments, and the main case, but again nothing in the transmission; not even the drain plug.

Is there nothing in there to catch burnishings and the filters relied upon solely for this purpose? I've been into a lot of transmissions and drive axles over the years and have never not seen magnets placed someplace near the wear parts.  

Taking the freshly topped batteries back over and planning to end the hybernation cycle this next week bringing the tractor back to the shop to make ready for work. I've submitted resignation to my implement dealer hauling job as need something more rewarding/challenging to do in retirement.

I'm looking for a starter RGN lowboy trailer under about $15K if anyone knows anything available. Trailer will be dedicated to this dozer and doesn't matter if mechanical, or hydraulic neck. Also wouldn't rule out a folder and also doesn't matter if mechanical, or power fold as I have the large winch needed.

Got a small hole worn through the tarp where a muffler support bracket was rubbing when the rubber bungees starting breaking allowing the tarp to make contact. Not a worry and I'll cement a patch over this compromise once the tractor is opened up again.

Didn't untarp but did replaced the broken bungees with new. Unfortunately they too are from the same batch as the prior so a short lived repair I'm certain. Supposed to start raining again this afternoon so didn't open her up, but sure am getting anxious. Later in the week possibly. 

Soon you'll be having fun with your machine and these winter thoughts will be long gone :)

That tarp in my opinion was worth the extra money it cost. It has held up much better than the best polyethylene tarps out there. I will purchase a small one to use for patching and a flexible contact cement for permanent repairs when needed.     

I've found a couple of designs for a root rake to build, but I want to have the tractor at my shop when laying it out for fitment. Hope to have that done sometime in the near future.   

Installed the two batteries shown on the ground next to the push beams by myself while standing on the track and under the tarp. A real bitch too. A bit snug, dry, and cozy inside despite the wind and rain we've had of late:

Engine cranks strong but I'm not going to start it while tarped, obviously.

The weather for the next few days is supposed to shape up a bit so may get back over to make a couple of quick repairs and squirt some grease into joints with my new Milwaukee M18 grease gun purchased for this tractor. Also have an Alemite two speed manual grease gun to permanently affix to the chassis someplace with it's mount. I need to figure out where I'll mount my track spade, (shovel) for cleaning mud out of the undercarriage also.