271 Detroit Diesel rebuild failure
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Topic: 271 Detroit Diesel rebuild failure
Posted By: WaltDevore
Subject: 271 Detroit Diesel rebuild failure
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 6:30pm
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New pistons, rings, liners, and complete valve job and engine shows no signs of life. Ether does nothing. Seems minimal air flowing through engine. Cranking engine seems like little compression. I am an amateur but have put tons of time into this. Can't understand why ether doesn't initiate anything. Fuel pump not getting fuel output. Blower turns, seems normal, but I don't know. Can't understand seeming lack of compression. Oh so frustrated. What to do? Thanks. On HD5G 1951. |
Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 6:55pm
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no compression is normally valve timing.. You have to get the air compressed when the piston is rising.. If valves are open, that dont happen... Also need to inject fuel at the right time... but you tried ether, so its not the pump. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 7:02pm
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not your engine, but something like this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjZxkD4sy8" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjZxkD4sy8 453 cam timing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD52pnYqJcg ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 7:04pm
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Blower may be turning some but sounds like blower drive shaft has sheared The combined not getting fuel pressure and no air is indicative of that |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 10:04pm
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I did not remove the crank nor cam shafts. I installed the head assuming the push rods would still be correct. Is it still possible the timing could be off? Thanks |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 10:06pm
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If I take the fuel pump off, would there be visible something rotating or not to isolate that. If that is the problem, is it repairable? No doubt the engine would need to be removed. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2020 at 10:09pm
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That sounds freaky correct. It had set for years. Can't imagine how it could have happened but nothing makes sense any more. I imagine with the oil pan off and cranking the engine, the fuel pump drive shaft would be visible. |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:17am
| Remove the fuel pump to make sure the coupling is't broken and same time you will see if you have fuel is comming from the tank |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:46am
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Walt, You may be a novice, but this doesn't sound like a failure! At least not yet. First you have done your best on getting a old dozer running again! That in its self is awesome! I give you credit! I am not familiar with these at all but read your post and had to comment, Sorry not much help. But as mentioned, you need fuel and compression for it to run. If you had the head off, you probably reset the valves to spec? The fuel? Well you need to have some at the injectors or its not going to run. That's about my depth of knowledge on a diesel. My other guess is that the crank to cam timing is still fine since you did not remove those. But your statement about the push rods is puzzling a little? Again I better stop now because between you and me right now you know way more about this engine than I. We need some pictures too! Regards, Chris
------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 7:13am
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Trust me Take the blower drive cover off Pull the drive coupling and shaft Will find the splines sheared on the shaft or coupler |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 7:14am
| I overhauled enough Detroit engines and worked with enough of them to understand what failed |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 10:59am
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Thanks so much for sharing that. Is that the front cover or back? Can it be repaired with the engine in the tractor? |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 12:09pm
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OK what are the valves doing ? what is the clearance of valve stem to rocker arm . Injector timing must be set also with a gauge for proper timing . Pull the injectors from the copper tubes in head - insert a rubber tipped compression test gauge like used in a spark plug hole for gas engine into copper tube and measure compression of each cylinder . Before pulling injectors make sure you have fuel pressure going to them as they have a constant flow from pump to cool injector also and return that fuel back into system (why there are 2 lines to each injector) Are you positive the air damper is not closed on intake side of blower - and that the fuel shut off in the governor is not closed ? You need AIR in, COMPRESSION of air , INJECTION of fuel all at proper time to run . A 2 cycle Detroit is a simple system . http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/DETROIT_2-71_HD5_SVC_Original_engine_service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/DETROIT_2-71_HD5_SVC_Original_engine_service.pdf ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 1:01pm
| Have you got a manual for that engine? Detroit manuals are very good with detail and step by step procedures. If you're shooting from the hip because of what you know about 4 cycle engines,you're gonna get an education. |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 2:18pm
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Are you sure you had diesel primed. If there is no diesel ether will not make it fire. Working my HD5 well warmed up and it died. Would not even pop a little using ether. Had a E clip come of a pin in the fuel control linkage under the valve cover. I was very surprised that ether would not pop at all without a bit of fuel. Put the pin back in started right up. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:10pm
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The spring that attaches to the shut off levers broke when I first removed it. I didn't replace it, thinking as long as the shut off control was pushed forward temporarily that it would be the same as the spring. Maybe I'm so dumb about that. I will replace it now of course. Could it be that simple? Oh my God! |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:11pm
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But regardless, I cannot get any output from the fuel pump. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:16pm
| Pull the pump, is a Very LIGHT(intentionally) square tube like coupling from drive shaft to pump shaft, it will be round now as the pump has likely locked, that is the fuse to keep from destroying really expensive parts. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:29pm
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Thanks, will do! |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 6:32pm
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I installed the head with the rocker arm components assuming it would be the same as when I took it apart. The hot setting is ten thou, the cold setting maybe 8? |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 8:01pm
| Cam is in the block, not gonna screw up timing R&R Head. |
Posted By: A310
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2020 at 10:08pm
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Get a manual and read it from start to finish. This will give you a great start to getting your engine running. In the last chapter there is a trouble shooting section that will guide you through your problem. If you can't find a manual, let me know and I'll show you the link.:) Hope this helps.:) ------------- 1965 AC FDX40-24 |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 10:52am
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I sure appreciate everyone's input. Thanks so much. Renewed vigor to get it going. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 8:55pm
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Update Took off fuel pump, connector okay. Fuel pump drive rotated with starter. Engine sounds out of time, like when a timing belt jumps a sprocket.  [TUBE]P2wDhFPB06U[/TUBE]
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Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 9:01pm
| Does not sound like there is any compression. You sure you have the valves adjusted right? Youtube can help. |
Posted By: wjohn
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 10:12pm
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I am no expert on these but I also agree it sounds like no compression. Here's another HD-5 video - I think I've linked right to a point in it when they are cranking it over, and you can sure hear the difference between it and your engine. https://youtu.be/T8_wginEw8A?t=925" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/T8_wginEw8A?t=925 Edit: On second listen it could be that the sound is intentionally being reduced by the camera/phone and we can't hear it chugging over very well, maybe. Not sure.
------------- 1939 B, 1940 B, 1941 WC, 1951 WD, 1952 CA, 1956 WD-45 |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2020 at 10:52pm
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Take the valve cover off and see if the valves are opening and closing. and make sure they are closing. ------------- He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that." |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 7:41am
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Walt, (not a expert here at all) I would have to agree that the posted video and sound. Engine sounds like it is spinning way to easy, like no compression. As mentioned, check the valve timing with crank/ pistons. would be my best guess too. Good news is the engine is turning over! Your close! Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 7:53am
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JC is right... pull the valve cover and see what is moving on the top end... and if the valves are going up and down, what clearance do they have when closed. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 10:02am
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OK - NO Compression - when you replaced the sleeves did you shim the liners so they are .003 to .008 and even above the block deck . and even between both ? https://www.powerlinecomponents.com/literature/detroit_diesel/2-71_torque_specs.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.powerlinecomponents.com/literature/detroit_diesel/2-71_torque_specs.htm https://www.powerlinecomponents.com/detroit-diesel/6se109/2-71-service-manual" rel="nofollow - https://www.powerlinecomponents.com/detroit-diesel/6se109/2-71-service-manual Here is a link to a 2-71 page that has manuals for download https://barringtondieselclub.co.za/detroit/2-71-detroit-diesel.html" rel="nofollow - https://barringtondieselclub.co.za/detroit/2-71-detroit-diesel.html ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: JohnColo
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 12:14pm
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A couple of my high school classmates decided to get into the trucking business a few years out of school. They bought a KW cabover and got a contract to haul meat to Chicago. Made several runs then decided they should service the truck. Changed the oil, etc. it wouldn't start. I should mention it had a DD 8V71 and an air starter. They hooked an air compressor to it and kept spinning it over, wouldn't start even with either. Finally discovered, after a couple days messing with it, the the air door had tripped. Put it back in open position and it fired right up. The ran for another month or so then went off the highway in a construction zone, that was the end of FBN (Fly by night), trucking. One of the guys went to medical school and just retired as a surgeon. the other sold his rafting business and retired to the Oregon coast. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 12:41pm
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Has several friends running 4-71 in single axle GMC trucks in late 50's early 60's from here to Chicago. One would fill up at station where i worked with heating oil at 12 cents a gallon and had another station near Chicago they would fill at for same price , said that one was hard to fuel at as had to drive over outside service rack to get to pump. The pump at the station i worked at had a short hose that just was long enough to fill a 5 gallon can set at it's base , so to fuel truck had to almost park on top of pump , then turn around and drive up to pump to fill saddle tank . One fellow bought a 1954 White single axle with a 4-71 and had the governor shimmed so he got about 3,000 RPM from engine - had to cut stack off to clear reefed units on trailer so he could turn , thing would belch flames from stack at times when wound up to high RPM . Ended up in one trip the crank broke in center main bearing - he still drove it over 100 miles to get home - said he wondered why oil pressure was low and it didn't seem to have the power it usually had . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 7:32pm
Im having trouble understanding what you are referring to here. The spring on rack control tube? It is for opening rack when stop is off. I think there's a lot of things you are unaware of on the how and why on a Detroit. Injector height(timing) is not easy for a first timer. It's tricky enough when you know what you're doing.
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WaltDevore wrote:Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 9:46pm
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To set injector timing - you first need a timing gauge that fits into a small hole in top of injector body ( it can be done with a dial caliper ) but the timing gauge gives you the height of the injector plunger , Then you need to set the rack - the rod and adjustment of the slide on side of injectors as these must be equal travel on both injectors (HV 7) invertors . As it sounds you have NO COMPRESSION so either the air damper is closed or your air cleaner is totally blocked and no air is coming through the oil bath air cleaner . I have serviced on 2-71 where the oil cup was solid dirt all the way up into media - it ran but after setting a few month would not start - oil and dirt had settled down and blocked all air from going thorough the media as the dirt that was there ran down with oil and formed a solid lump at base of filter . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 11:17pm
| Coke,you make that timing guage sound awful simple. First one I did I read the book and applied what I learned. It ran but was a dog. Got a mechanic from a truck shop to come over and watched him. AHHH now I get it! It ran strong after he got done with it. AD40 grader and would walk the hills a gear higher. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 11:45pm
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No I didn't. I made another assumption that for the price of the liners they would be just right. The valves weren't touched but the head was done. Wonder if they could that far out from the valve job. I'll get to it. All the suggestions are right on. The good weather is about to disappear, don't know when my next window will be. The suspense is really something. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 11:53pm
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Amazingly I still have my Snap On injector timer. I'll finally get to use it again. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2020 at 11:56pm
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I did completely clean the air cleaner oil bowl. There is a little poofing in the blue container over the exhaust pipe. Didn't show on video. At least a little air is going through. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 12:01am
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It was the spring that pulls the throttle control back. 50 bucks for that. I may have found one on Amazon. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PVY1Y7L/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A84ISXLWKDMPW&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PVY1Y7L/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A84ISXLWKDMPW&psc=1 Like the other gentleman said I wonder if finally getting diesel into the cylinders will seal it up more. If I ever get this running, I'll know how and never do it again. Just like everything else in my life.
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Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2020 at 12:40am
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Thank you for the links. 185 on the head bolts pretty hefty. My torque wrench only went to 150, then I used a cheater pipe on a breaker bar for a little bit more. |
Posted By: dadsdozerhd5b
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 2:32pm
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If the head was done and you did not readjust the valves the most certainly staying open. They would have ground the valves and seats thus making the stem stick up higher taking away any clearance that was there. Readjust everything and retry. Also make sure the fitting in the back of the head has the restrictor in it if it was replaced. If not no fuel back pressure and no pressure to the injectors. Low liner height may come back to haunt you in the long run if you don’t fix it. ------------- HD5B, HD5G, (2) FARMALL A's, CUB. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME, IGNORE THE LAUGHTER. FLANNEL IS ALWAYS IN STYLE. |
Posted By: WaltDevore
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 8:21pm
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Thanks, that makes a ton of sense. I'll be installing a new fuel pump too. The parts guy said if no shims were installed before, there shouldn't need to have any now. I bought everything from Powerlinecomponents.com. I'm waiting for the next warm up. Too cold and windy at 9,000 feet west of Denver. |