AC HD20 TORQUE CONVERTER ISSUE?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=160277
Printed Date: 24 Sep 2024 at 1:52pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: AC HD20 TORQUE CONVERTER ISSUE?
Posted By: calvin long
Subject: AC HD20 TORQUE CONVERTER ISSUE?
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 9:58am
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HELLO, I AM NEW TO THE FORUM. I AM NEEDING SOME POINTERS ON A ALLIS HD20 DOZER WITH THE 6-110 DETROIT. THE DOZER WAS FOUND IN A BARN THAT HASN'T BEEN OPEN IN SOME YEARS. I AM IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO GET THIS OLE GIRL OUT AND ON A TRAILER TO TAKE HER HOME WITH ME. IT HAS SAT FOR AT LEAST 14 YEARS. AFTER GOING THROUGH FUEL SYSTEM I MANAGED TO GET IT RUNNING OFF A AUXILIARY FUEL TANK MOUNTED ABOVE ENGINE. STEERING CLUTCH RESIVORE WAS DRY OF COURSE SO AFTER ADDING LOTS OF FLUID I CAN FEEL SPOOL VALVES OPERATING AND SUCH. EVERYTHING CHECKED OUT OK SO I ATTEMPTED TO SEE IF THE TRACKS START TO SQUEAK, THREW HER IN 1ST ENGAGED CLUTCH ENGINE IDLED DOWN AND DRIVE SHAFT MOVE SLIGHTLY. I THEN UPPED RPM AND DRIVE SHAFT MOVED A BIT MORE AS IF ITS TRYING TO TRANSFER POWER BUT NOT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BUDGE ON SPROCKETS OR TRACKS I TRIED 2ND AND REVERSE GEARS AS WELL WITH NO LUCK. I TRIED TO NARROW DOWN ISSUE AND I THINK TORQUE CONVERTER IS JUST NOT TRYING HARD AT ALL. I HAVE 45-60 PSI ON FUEL GUAGE BUT I STILL DECIDED TO TAKE OFF THE FUEL RETURN RESTRICTOR NEXT TO LEFT SIDE OF RADIATOR AND OF COURSE RESTRICTOR WAS COMPLETELY CLOGGED. I TOOK IT HOME AND CLEANED IT. I HAVE NOT BEEN BACK OVER TO REINSTALL BUT IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE TO CHECK AS FAR AS FUEL FLOW TO CONVERTER? I HAVE CHECKED PULL FORCE ON CLUTCH AND CHECKED GOOD AND THEIRS NO CLUTCH SMELL OR NOISE ANYHOW IN THAT AREA. HOPEFULLY THIS IS THE ISSUE SINCE I AM UNDER THE GUN TO GET THIS THING OUT ASAP. ITS BEEN A LONG JOURNEY FOR ME GETTING THIS JEWEL RUNNING SO GIVING UP ISN'T A OPTION. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
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Replies:
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 10:08am
| If the engine idled back something is trying to pull. Is the parking brake engaged? HD20s were a little different animal. |
Posted By: Jim.ME
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 10:50am
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I am thinking the HD 20 torque converter used diesel fuel for a fluid. I am not sure just how it was plumbed but it may not want to go, working from a small tank just hung on it. Not saying for sure it does, but I think some did use diesel. As I remember the restricted fittings in the Jimmies they were in the head where the fuel exits to return to the tank and externally look like a common brass fitting. They provided the regulation to control the fuel pressure. Different engines and different tuning used different fittings with different orifice sizes. Still got a couple different ones in that special, must save, drawer in my tool box. What does the restrictor you took off look like? Possibly a little housing with a bunch of wafer plates inside it? I took a quick look on Minnpar's site and didn't see a parts manual for the HD 20 with a 6-110, will have to look more later. |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:21am
| We have several HD20s in our collection. The one we have run the most.. I think has 2 fuel pumps and 2 fuel gauges..one is dedicated to the torque converter fuel supply...that of course was added by somebody else. Doesn't sound like you have 2 gauges? That machine also had the auxiliary fuel filters that were plugged very bad. Check all of the fuel lines that run the torque converter and return lines. The converter won't work with out good fuel supply. The restricter is supposed to keep 35-55 lbs of fuel pressure. When it's working good...the drive shaft should be spinning pretty good when in neutral and the clutch engaged. |
Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 11:29am
| Ok..also concur with Jim's comments..not sure how you have plumbed the temporary tank? But the fuel needs to get through the converter to work. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:05pm
| AS FAR AS I KNOW THE BAND BRAKES ARE NOT APPLIED BUT COULD BE STUCK POSSIBLY. I KNOW THERES ADUSTMENTS UNDER FUEL TANK 1 ON EACH SIDE. I HAVEN'T MESSED WITH THE ADJUSTMENTS BUT I COULD. IT IS TRYING BUT HOW MUCH IS THE QUESTION. I WOULD THINK I WOULD SEE OR FEEL SOME KIND OF MOVEMENT IN DRIVE SPROKETS. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:10pm
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YES IT USES DIESEL FOR COOLING. THE RESTRICTOR ON THIS ENGINE IS A SMALL CAN THAT SEPARATES AND HAS I METAL SCREEN AND THEN A .060 SIZE JET THAT SCREWS INTO THE BODY. IT WAS COMPLETELY CLOGGED BUT THAT WOULD BE THE RETURN AFTER IT WENT THROUGH CONVERTER I BELIEVE
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Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:14pm
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is it possible the converter just doesnt have enough fluid yet since the fitting was plugged? could be gummed up inside the converter with old diesel it may clog again. i would run the return into a bucket to verify a good flow of clean fuel. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:16pm
| Diesel not for cooling for actual driving/operating fluid, that was the part I was trying to remember how worked. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 12:17pm
| YES IT HAS A TOTAL OF 3 FILTERS. ONE BEING THE BIG HEAVY DUTY TYPE TO THE FRONT RIGHT OF THE OPERATOR. THIS IS NOW BYPASSED BUT OUT OF THAT FILTER IT GOES RIGHT TO THE PRIMARY SIDE OF FUEL FILTER BY THE FUEL PUMP WHICH IS WHERE I HAVE HOOK MY AUXILIARY TANK TO SO THE RETURN FUEL WOULD BE GOING TO THE MAIN TANK THAT HAS ALL THE OLD DIESEL SITTING IN IT. ALSO THE DRIVE SHAFT DOES SPIN JUST FINE WHEN IN NEUTRAL AND CLUTCH ENGAGED. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2019 at 2:59pm
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I'm wondering if the drive shaft really has any torque in it. Maybe wrap a belt or rope around it and tie it to something and gently engage the clutch. If it tightens up the rope, you have other problems, if it does't turn, the probably the problem is in the torque onverter ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2019 at 9:17am
not a bad idea. i will have to try something to measure the applied torque.
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JohnCO wrote:Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2019 at 2:57pm
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Ok guys.....been corresponding with Calvin on direct email. sent him several pages out of the parts book for converter and fuel lines. Told him to post us some pictures....or send them to me and I would try to post them. Yep (he took the Darrel route and sent them to me) LOL.  Looks like it was a scraper pusher   This looks like a very very nice specimen !! It definitely needs to be preserved. Keep working on it...ask more questions here..whatever it takes to get it out of there. More pictures!...especially the one of you loading it on the lowbed to haul it home.
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Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2019 at 4:47pm
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Thanks for uploading the pictures for me. I will be out at the barn most of the day tommarow to work on the dozer. I will deffenatly take more pics when she decides to crawl out of her den. I will touch base if i have any other questions or concerns. Thanks guys! |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 9:26am
| Out here working on the Dozer today. Here's where I'm at..... verified I have no air end primary fuel filter and fresh fuel supply fired up engine with secondary filter cracked and a few air bubbles come out then closed it off. Now keep in mind I just reinstalled my return filter restrictor that was completely clogged originally take a look at fuel pressure gauge and was reading 0 waited a few minutes and needle started bumping up and came up to about 40-50 psi. Left Transmission in neutral and engaged clutch to let drive shaft free Spin and fuel pressure dropped back down to 0 then slowly came up to around 40. Put transmission in first and re-engaged clutch engine idled down and I gave it some throttle drive shaft moved slowly about 90° like it might have been trying to pull let it run varying throttle for around 30 seconds or so returned back to idle still in first gear and clutch engaged and fuel PSI went down to 20 lb then i shut it down. Just curious do I need to let converter spin drive shaft in neutral for sometime to get fuel flow and build up pressure? I doubt 20 lb is enough. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 10:02am
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sounds about right for a mechanical pump dropping at idle. if this thing has been sitting a while the brake bands could be lightly stuck, the tracks a little tight, its probably not going to move at idle. that being said I think your on the right track. wouldn't hurt to spin the trans in neutral to run some fuel through and sling some oil around in the transmission. Did you verify oil and lack of water in transmission? could be some surface rust inside on bearings etc. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 12:26pm
| Well I fired it back up and let converter spin in neutral for a few minutes I then put it in gear and Davidson throttle for 30 seconds or so I pulled down on both steering clutches a few times and let him go and all of a sudden pop she starts walking right out. I drove it out approximately 20 ft to see if it will steer and it didn't really want to but did not try the band brakes while operating steering lever either I backed it back in and shut it down couldn't believe it. Everything seemed really smooth when going forward and backward. This thing Hall's but in first gear if you wanted it to can imagine 2nd gear. Once I get main tank hooked backup I will test steering clutches more and see if Band Breaks will help steer it I have about 1/2 Mile Drive through the woods and a few turns through the trail to get it to the pasture. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 12:28pm
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thats great. they wont steer well without a load you will need to use the brakes. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 3:05pm
Thanks I just figured that out by pulling back on the steering clutch and tapping brake. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 5:36pm
My HD16DC has a torque converter that uses the diesel fuel out of primary fuel tank. Maybe by bypassing the fuel tank the converter is starved for fuel. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 6:00pm
 Sorry about the double pics above. Just wanted to show you guys taking a peek of daylight 
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Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 6:03pm
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 7:31pm
| Judging from the gouge you got it moving!! Now would be time to get that winch functional to drag that nose Up! |
Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 8:41pm
It'll sure take you a long time to build a pond with that monster of a blade.  Hope you get her going good. Everything I see looks good.. Good luck with her
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Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 8:44pm
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It'll sure take you a long time to build a pond with that monster of a blade. Hope you get her going good. Everything I see looks good.. Good luck with her
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Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2019 at 9:30pm
Yea i chained up the stump ripper. Didn't whant it to drag when going out but as far as I know that's as high as it can go up because there's bunk plates further back towards middle track. The reason why I have it chained is because the front blade control slave cylinders were taken apart and laying on the floor board when i found her so I did not want to push my luck with that i just need to get her home now and then i will start hitting buttons lol |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2019 at 6:58am
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Congratulations on your new find. It’s fun working on a unknown tractor and making her move again. ------------- HD16DC, Bobcat 863 Turbo, Oliver 1855, John Deere 855, |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 6:20am
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Thanks for uploading the pictures for me. I will be out at the barn most of the day tommarow to work on the dozer. I will deffenatly take more pics when she decides to crawl out of her den. I will touch base if i have any other questions or concerns. Thanks guys! |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 7:38am
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interesting it uses a slave cylinder to operate the winch. even into the 60's the front hydraulic units and M100 front cable controls used long mechanical rods ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 2:50pm
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I,ve wondered about operating rear mounted cable controls that way Cal. As old age and weakening shoulders become prominent..... |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 8:03pm
Everything is super tight from what I could tell on this Dozer it has 2227 hours on it I checked out rear cable units and they look like they're fully functional and had been well-maintained still got yellow paint on it from Factory and cables are great as well. I have just made it out to the pasture 1/2 mile hike through a narrow Trail after work today she's ready to come home to Daddy hopefully Thursday my buddy will back up with his 80k lowboy and she will be to our final destination in about 15 minutes. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 8:08pm
Everything is super tight from what I could tell on this Dozer it has 2227 hours on it I checked out rear cable units and they look like they're fully functional and had been well-maintained still got yellow paint on it from Factory and cables are great as well. I have just made it out to the pasture 1/2 mile hike through a narrow Trail after work today she's ready to come home to Daddy hopefully Thursday my buddy will back up with his 80k lowboy and she will be to our final destination in about 15 minutes. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 6:20am
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Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 6:22am
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Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 6:23am
 We made it to the pasture. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:04am
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We made it to the pasture. |
Posted By: NomoreJohnDeere
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 3:02pm
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ground shaker ------------- HD3 |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 3:44pm
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"
ground shaker" As we watched and felt a HD 41 slowly go by one comment was "That will have the ants grabbing for their crockery"
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Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 6:06pm
| Get that all functioning well then find a blade to mount to that U-frame, be a dirt pushing beast. |
Posted By: Mactractor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:16pm
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And a 314 or 315 scraper hitched up. The cable control is already mounted. |
Posted By: Steve allis dozer
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:32pm
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Nice tractor Calvin have you had a good look on the property for the blade ? just a thought , it would be pretty heavy to move without the machine is probably still sitting where it was taken off |
Posted By: rickv57
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:50pm
| That sure is a nice looking old 20 glad you got her going |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:19pm
I do have blade its a cat blade. Brought it home the other night. Also have another stump blade i need to get that goes with it. |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 9:20pm
Thank you. Im 27 and i have real respect for the old equipment and the operators that ran them. |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 01 May 2019 at 4:46am
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The rather low hours, on it may come from the fact that it came set up as a stump ripper... ------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 6:34am
Would anyone happen to know where i can buy good replacement oil ilters and fuel filters for the HD20? I have had bad luck in the past with those old style cartridge types fitting correctly. Just want to get the right ones. Andy help wod be appreciated. Heres a pic of 1 of the oil filter housing. 
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Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 9:23am
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Part Number Manufacturer Wix Part Number 079352 ALLIS-CHALMERS 51133 straight from with wix interchange. just punch in your other numbers. the big HD fuel filter may be questionable?
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: calvin long
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 11:52am
Thanks! As for the big HD filter ill have to pull it and see what the number is. Hopfully something available |