Dr. Allis oil pressure max . 75lbs
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15416
Printed Date: 26 Jun 2024 at 3:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Dr. Allis oil pressure max . 75lbs
Posted By: mlpankey
Subject: Dr. Allis oil pressure max . 75lbs
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 10:28am
|
Fired puller up Saturday at max rpm it has 75 psi oil pressure 50 wt valvoline racing oil. Fram hp1 filter and cooler holding up well. Glad to have the pressure before the 27 psi at 5000 was scarry . I am a firm believer in 10 psi per 1000 rpms. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 11:53am
| I'd be worried about tearing the teeth off of the camshaft and oil pump gear.....no kidding. Use 15W-40 oil. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 6:56pm
|
Cut that Fram open, then cut a Wix open. You'll never buy another Fram filter again. I agree with the 10 psi per 1k rpms above 2k. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 7:12pm
|
Not arguing one way or the other 'cause I'm not overly knowledgeable in HP. That being said, I've heard the 10 PSI per 1000 RPM rule before, but never understood it. Within narrow limits, one cannot force more fluid through a given restriction, no matter the increase in force (pressure) behind it. I realize, the goal is to maintain the film of oil between bearing and journal, and that the higher forces placed on said bearing and journal from bigger bang on piston, and more of them with increased speed of rotation will tend to want to "squish" that film out, but it just seems there would be a point of no return on increased oil pressure ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 8:03pm
| How about Mobil 1 15/50 Synthetic Racing oil, I use in air cooled engines. |
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 9:37pm
| Too much oil pressure can force the bearings against the crank opposite the oil hole and cause them to spin just as too little oil can cuase the friction to spin them. The Buda 262's used a relief valve built into the pressure line from the oil pump tube before the flow entered the engine. It simply dumped over flow right back into the pan. This might be an option. |
Posted By: Jamie NC
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2010 at 9:41pm
|
does that mean your turnin 7500 rpm? ------------- Allis tractor puller CA WC WD D17 |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 6:20am
|
i wish . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Chris/CT
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 6:24am
| Any video of that mighty engine running coming?? |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 6:36am
| I dont have an iron in the fire here but what Doc said about your oil is good advise, Years ago a buddy was pulling a Chevy NTPA 4WD. Had a solid block 500 CID motor and he kept beating the bearings out of it and finaly went to a pro builder who took one look at a main shell and said, dump that 50 or whatever oil you are running and go with 10W-30, Problem fixed. Solid block motors are started pulled and shut off. Cold oil plus heavy oil equals lots of pressure,, but little flow. Back when we ran a dirt late model we didnt even run straight 50wt in that application, always 20w-50 so the oil would flow while hot lapping, just something to ponder. By the way 10Lbs per 1000 is a good rule in my book too. |
Posted By: JayIN
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:04am
|
Yes, what Brian said.Stay away from FRAM filters. They are and can be a problem. Found out the hard way! No more for me! Yes, use multi-vis oil. I would stay away from synthetic oil until the rings are seated good. Just my 2 cents from 37 years of working on all kinds of junk! ------------- sometimes I walk out to my shop and look around and think "Who's the idiot that owns this place?" |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:15am
|
I'm not arguing that 10/1000 isn't good, I'm just asking why? the clearances don't change with rev's so what is being accomplished with more pressure? ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: TedBuiskerN.IL.
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:31am
|
Lou, stands to reason higher surface speeds and pressures at the bearing are going to reduce the oil film unless there is more oil pressure to compensate by providing more oil to replace the film. ------------- Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 8:29am
|
Makes sense to me. When the gauge on my sprayer pump reads higher it puts out more volume through the same clearance. (spray nozzle) |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 9:05am
|
A known fact (or what I was taught back in auto tech collage) is that over 70 # is unneccessary and its at the point of starting to wash bearings. As D17 Dave pointed out about the 'opposite of hole having to much pressure applied is true till you have a bearing with a 360 degree grove cut in the bearing or shaft. Another observation from old timers of yeons past...Chevy had an engine that used the dipper system for oiling the rod bearings. Little dipper cups would force oil up into the rod caps from a trough in the oil pan.Faster the engine ran, more force of oil to lube rod journal. As I remember being told, the manual said to run 10 weight oil in summer and 5 in winter. Engines would run for 80-100,000 miles (60-100,000 about typical for those days)... But there were fellows that didn't follow the manual and dump 30 in for summer and would forget to change for winter and the first real cold blast of winter hit, there were burned out rod bearings. ... oil didn't warm up fast enough to lube them rods.
Just some history and something to think about why to not use 50 weight.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 10:18am
|
Granted I would like to have a gear oil pump that increases pressure linear with rpms . The allis chalmer oil pump doesnt vary much with increase in rpms. Also keep in mind the only thing cooling anything below the cylinder head is the oil. all bearings and rod side clearances etc. are to race engine specs no factory manual tolerances on this one. the fram filter is a race designed filter with heavier pleats and canister for increase oil pressure. I will probably change the the tubing and fittings out at least on the outside of the engine to -10 in the future . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 10:47am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Chris/CT wrote:Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 2:52pm
|
by the way think of this .most cars at 70 mile an hour are turning 2000 to 2500 rpms down the interstate and the oil pressure hot runs 40 psi . 10 per 1000 rpm is the minimum required for save operation. thats about 20 psi per 1000 rpms. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 3:32pm
|
ML is right on about that last post. Chrysler 2.7L V6 will typically run up to 100 psi cold, but does fall off quite a bit hot. We had one here we sold and the oil light would come on at idle. I told them to change the sender first, and if that didn't fix it, plan on putting a pump in it. The manager claimed he knew a master Chrysler tesch that claimed he never heard of replacing pumps in those engine and said put bearings in it. Replaced the bearings and no change. Put a pump in it and hot it idled at 22psi, before it was down to almost 0. Cold it ran to 110 with the new pump, old pump was 100. At 2500 hot it ran 60. If he built in added bearing clearance, I can see why running 50wt, but if not, I'd go back to 10-40 or 15-40. Heavy oil is going to build more heat pumping than the lighter stuff. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 6:37pm
|
If I read it correctly, Dr. Allis's point didn't denote any concerns about bearing considerations, oil film, or excess temperatures or pressures... He said 'rip the gear teeth'... meaning... the oil pump load, both pressure and speed, would be putting the gear teeth at risk of coming apart. Component survivability is always a combination of environmental conditions. In the case of hydraulic components, you have pressure, temperature, and vibration... any ONE of those factors can be tolerated to a very high degree, but a combination of several can cause the component to fail at a much lower point. Example: the High Pressure Oil Pump used in the Ford Powerstroke 6.0 of several years ago: excessive overhanging load of the pump drivetrain, insufficient support positioning of the fasteners, and a hydraulic fitting not suitable for said forces, 5000psi, and a turbocharger sitting an inch above it's head. Stupid design, when put in real life, failed regularly, with identical results. Running too much oil pump pressure or volume puts unnecessary load on the driving components... and the way pressurized-film bearings work, any pressure higher than the minimum necessary, is unnecessary. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 6:51pm
|
Dave, you sure it just isn't INTERNATIONAL? Just replaced one of those branch tube connectors the other day for a high pressure oil leak. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Stan R
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:04pm
| In rough terms of magnitude, when you double the pressure, you get a 25% increase of flow. All things being equal (oil viscosity, temperature, etc.). |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:08pm
| I have a 180 prostocker that runs 5000 rpm,s ; I use straight 30 wt. , change the oil every 2 runs cause of fuel in oil ; its pushing alot of fuel !!! and at least once a year it,ll tear the teeth off of the oil pump, its cam driven , havent messed up the cam yet but when that red light comes on ; I know what happened !!! Make sure you have a light and a gauge, I like the light cause it,ll get your attention much faster and you cant keep your eye on the gauge ALL of the time !!! |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2010 at 7:27pm
|
I have a 351 cleveland drag race engine, that has cross drilled scat stroker crank, and when I first built the engine in 2003, I almost had a cow because of "low" oil pressure (50, hot). I pulled pan down trying to find an internal leak, because I turn this thing just over 7000. Relief in oil pump was around 80. I spun oil pump shaft with pan off watching oil flood out of the crank, rods, huge volume. I decided to run it, and upon freshen up 2 years later, the bearings still looked excellent. I even put half the rod bearings back in, along with half a set of .001 unders, because I am still bothered by the pressure not being as high as I'd like. Those bearings are still in that engine, and it has about 350 mid to low 10 second 1/4 mile passes on it. I even put a Rons Flying Toilet on alcohol on it. Crosses the line at 7200 with 50 psi, with Brad Penn 20/50. moral of this long and boring story is pressure isn't everything. plus the more pressure you run, the hotter the oil is going to get, and Mitch is only using oil for cooling. sorry for the long post, Ed.
------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: Eric[IL]
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 6:07am
| Interesting conversation guys. I have a 2000 7.3L powerstroke with 263,000 hard miles on it which are mostly trailer pulling miles. Recently it developed two bad injectors. The mechanic replaced them, but now it cranks for about 40 seconds in the morning before starting. Before he replaced injectors, it started sooner, but still not as good as it used too. Cold (30 degrees or less) & Winter starts were not good at all. Sounds like an o-ring is leaking on an injector or we are thinking it's high pressure oil pump could be going bad? Any ideas... |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 6:41am
Your mechanic did not hurt your Powerstroke, the cranking problem is due to air in the high pressure oil system from the injector replacement and there is no way around it. The air must be compressed by the HPOP before there is enough pressure to pop the injectors and start, your HPOP also likely will take longer due to 263K miles. To get the air out you need a load plus RPMS, most simply run the truck like they stole it for about 10 miles, this is what a Ford Tech will do if they install injectors. Normal type driving will do it but takes lots longer. We have along steep hill next to town and one trip up that hill on the foor will do it, so will a load on a trailer on flat ground.
|
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 7:34am
|
Sorry, but I don't buy that slam on Fram oil filters Bri. I don't care how many so called tests they've done and cut open oil filters. I've been a Fram dealer for more than 35 years. Never had a problem myself, nor any of my customers. And I have a lot of Drag Race/Performance customers. Ran both the standard and the HP series filters on my street cars, Streetrods, & race cars over the years and never a problem. Never broke a motor either buzzin' em' at 8K. Next time you happen to come across a Drag Racing program on TV, when the camera happens to swing by them 7500 HP Top Fuel engines while they're getting ready to make a pass, note what they have screwed to the engines. A pair of FRAM oil filters, and those boys been using them for years. I'm sure Cory Mac' doesn't have Wix filters on his TF car. Just like the Powerglide trans took the slammin' for years as being a "junk" transmission. That's all they use in lower sportsman Drag Race classes for quite a few years now. The only weak link in that tranny was the Sun gear. Replace the cast Sun gear set with an Iron unit or billet aluminum piece, and Viola! Instant "bulletproof" tranny. So much for the "junk" trans. Same goes for the filters....
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 10:15am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 12:01pm
|
All I'm going to say is cut a Fram open. Compare it to a Wix or a Purolator. As soon as you do, You'll see what myself and alot of others know. I've never had an engine failure caused by a Fram filter, I'm just saying the quality isn't there when compared to a good filter. Fram ranks down there with Champion Labs with less media/glued cardboard construction. I give Champ Labs a half step up since they have a plastic sleeve inside the filter center to prevent it from collapsing with cold oil or plugged media. I'm not trying to be mean, but it means little to nothing for an engine that makes a few 1320' passes and gets torn down and rebuilt. High mileage engines that still have the hone marks in the cylinders and little to no discernable wear to the rotating assy don't come about from using lower quality oils and filters.
Like I said, don't take this as me being a smarta**, or a jerk. Cut open a few and see for yourself. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 2:30pm
|
Brian we are not comparing apples to oranges. The regular $3.00 fram filter vs $3.00 wix filter is apples to apples the 8.00 race filter is the orange. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 3:05pm
| I like seeing someone get beat in tractor pulling and then they go off crying,knowing the other guy is cheating more then them . Just my thought for the day. |
Posted By: Bill_MN
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2010 at 11:21pm
|
i would run a K&N oil filter on that thing, those are some stout filters ------------- 1951 WD #78283, 1918 Case 28x50 Thresher #76738, Case Centennial B 2x16 Plow |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 6:30am
|
Fred cry babies will always find some reason to cry. Rebuilt carb last night ran engine got it good and warm. oil pressure hot at 850 rpms is 25 psi climbs back to 75 psi at full throttle . I believe I am ready to pull saturday .I hope to hear some crying from the other side. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Good
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 6:51am
| ml,if you don't mind saying.What is the carb. off of that it has an accelerator pump on it? |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2010 at 10:52pm
|
The only time Wix filters can be bought here for $3 is when the Napa store has a sale and you buy a case of them. I cut open an ordinary Fram, a Wix, and a Motorcraft (made by Purolator). Fram is poorly made. Glued cardboard ends, large pleats in the filtering media, and a stamped piece of steel for a bypass spring, no anti drainback valve. Wix uses an actual spring for the bypass. The ends of the filter are crimped metal, the pleats in the media are much closer due to there being more filtering material, a metal core so the media can't collapse, and a silicon anti drainback valve. The difference between Wix and Purolator is a stamped bypass spring VS an actual coil spring. There may be a difference in the HP series, I haven't seen the inside of one of those. If there is, and it's $8 vs about $6 for a Wix around here, Fram is charging more for the HP for what you get everyday in a Wix. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2010 at 7:49am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |