AC6g steering clutch
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=149341
Printed Date: 03 Jun 2024 at 3:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: AC6g steering clutch
Posted By: ohio-d19
Subject: AC6g steering clutch
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2018 at 1:30pm
| Hello all thanks for the ad. I thought I could sand bag my way through this repair but no luck. First off my dad bought this machine in 1987 and put left steering clutch in it shortly there after. Jump to 1998 ish right clutch froze meaning would not disengage, kinda like the cheap remote control car from the 80s you just had to backup and left clutch to go right. Shortly after the main clutch started slipping. Now present day after waking it from a 20 year near death nap I decided to try and resurrect it. I have tackled the main clutch, Wich happened to be a broken pressure plate caused by worn-out through out coller pins. Worked my way to Allis's hind end where I found her right cavity half full of watery mouse goodness. This is where I started at the wrong end. So I'm in it for too much dinero to exit stage left and let some Auto maker turn it into 23 full sized trucks. I finally muscled the brake drum and what was left of the clutch, thanks to John from General Gear. However that's where I damaged the ol girl. I put the rebuilt clutch back in and fastened it back to both flanges and I noticed that I have 1 whole disk sticking out of the drum. I have tried to pry the drum back to center but cannot move. I looked at the cap at the other end of the shaft under the track pad and it looks unscathed.dont know where I gained 1/4 of an inch at, but that's what it is off compared to the left side measuring the drum to center cavity wall.Sorry for the long post but any help would be greatly appreciated. |
Replies:
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2018 at 4:03pm
|
Now if it was the right thickness when you assembled it on the bench - then evidently you gained the 1/4 " by the length of the bolts you used to mount it . Each side uses a different length bolt to attach to drive flanges - I had one side where bolts cut into pressure plate - creating a weak side and plate moved back on itself as it collapsed - relieving the pressure on plates and slipping ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2018 at 6:03pm
| Well not exactly I paid close attention to that . I'm trying to get a picture posted and not have much luck. From drive flange to driven flange is 1/4 inch wider on the side I took out. I struggled to get the clutch pack out. I had to pry the flanges away from clutch pack and stick a shim washer in before removing the pry bar then I could Jack it out. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2018 at 4:36pm
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Coming out that is about normal IF THEM MEESES made nests in case - With everything clean and such - should go back together fine . There is a height for when clutch is put back together - for number of clutch friction plates and metal discs in a unit . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2018 at 4:48pm
| If the distance between flanges is 1/4" greater than on the other side you likely have a bad bearing. Remove the cover between the steering clutch covers and the cover on the rear of the final drive housing to inspect the ring and pinion clearance. the timkin roller bearing is damaged. You moved the ring gear away from the pinion gear |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2018 at 8:14pm
| I will pull that cover tomorrow and inspect. Boy I wish I could figure out how to post pictures from my phone. |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 6:34am
| When the steering clutch pack thickness is incorrect the error thickness is inside the drum. The fact that you have a friction that was not inside the drum is a serious error signal. You will have to remove the clutch assembly again. Check that the bolts holding the drum are 1" long. As Coke-in-MN said if the bolts are too long they push on the pressure plate. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 7:02am
| I bolted the drum first and had to draw the disk assembly to the drive flange. So although i did put new bolts in it im positive they are correct. The only thing i can come up with is that i pushed the pinion shaft out. However when i measured from the drum edge to the case wall at pinion reduction it measures the same as left side. The drums measure the same. I'm going to check measurements again ...... and hopefully post pics.. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 10:18am
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You might send the pictures to someone else, such as Mel, as he has it figured out, and then he can post them for you. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 2:08pm
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Hello Ohio. What kind of phone do you have that you are trying to import pic with. I may be able to help out. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 11:21am
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Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 11:22am
| ok wow you may need to step back a few feet ! |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 11:26am
 ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 11:26am
| Now i did run it last night and i seemed to get the drum started on the disk , but the disk is still partially out . I took notice that the other side and this side originally had no teeth on this disk. Was that because it works in and out? THANKS CAL! |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 1:04pm
Compare my picture to yours. Note the entire clutch pack is inside the drum. The only way this could happen to you is if the flanges are too far appart (Like you said) of if your drum was cut down (not likely) The drum width from flange to end is 4.62" The first thing to do is to remove the clutch pack and find out why the flanges moved. Take another picture from farther away. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 2:17pm
| I plan to pull the drum out this weekend. In order to get the pinion shaft out to inspect the bearings do I need to break the track? Looking at the book I must have run the bearings out of their races. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 4:05pm
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The ring gear bearings are in a separate compartment separate bearings on that side - the top gear on the outboard side is supported on a set of bearings - one side in steering clutch case and other under cap bolted by top of track on outside of case - No the track does not need to be removed . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2018 at 4:06pm
| No you should't need to break the track for checking the pinion bearing and pull the stering cluch assambly after you can check by the flange if you have back lach on pinion and on the bearing |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2018 at 7:46am
| With the steering clutch removed Try to move the flanges to feel for bearing damage. My best guess is it is on the inboard side. I have an HD5 with the steering clutch removed I can measure the distance between flanges if it will help. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 1:47am
It sure would Dozer. I have five and five sixteenths in between the two flanges. Boy it's a lot easier to remove the clutch the second time I could pull it by hand. I think I found the problem I think the driven flange is on the shaft too far I have a picture I might try to post it. When I tore this apart the bolt was out of that flange just laying in the clutch bouncing around. so I had a new one made and new washer with a detent pin. The ring gear side seems to be well. The Driven flange doesn't seem to have any play in it other than some backlash back and forth which I would think would be normal seeing as how those gears on the other end of it but it doesn't seem to move up and down at all like there's bearing failure. I looked at the outboard bearing and it's a funny looking bearing but I think it's all good it has like three rollers then a pin and then three rollers but it all seems to be intact. I'm not sure if I could get this flange off to check the inboard bearings without some major torch work.   ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 1:59am
 ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 12:07pm
| The flange hub brake drum 049937 is too far on the shaft 049945 and look like cracked and have to be changed |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 1:04pm
|
You are probably right GemDozer. The flange looks seized pretty tightly on the shaft and it doesn't appear that it's moved any time recently. Could that have been caused by the bolt not being in there and it working back and forth for years? ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 4:29pm
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The distance between flanges on my HD5 is 5 3/16. Tape measure accuracy. Looking at the rust, the increased distance happened long ago. Under the brake drum flange is a bearing cage and (2) seals. It could be that the bearing was replaced years ago with a bearing that was narrower than the correct bearing. Check it out while everything is appart. Good Luck |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 5:07pm
| The guy who had this machine before he maybe working with the bolt loosen on shaft flange and with time he had back lach on shaft and flange and maybe cut the end flange 1/8 inch at the end the flange could go more far on taper shaft and the flange could pull out the drum and you have a stering cluch disc out.I see this on CATERPILLAR D7 |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2018 at 5:49pm
I'm having a friend of mine build a plate to pull the flange. The fellow that sold me the drum has a flange he is sending me. It doesn't look like there was a disk sticking out when I took this apart .  ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 7:53am
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The before and after pictures tell the story. The before picture shows part of the steering clutch hub outside the drum, but not as much as the after photo. My picture does not show the clutch hub because it is inside the drum. I had to get 1/8" on both sides before I could remove the clutch pack. I agree that it looks like the flanges are further apart now. Consider using 1/2" bolts long enough to reach the final drive housing on the same side and a bit more. The bolts will need to have a full length thread. Put the bolts thru the flange holes and run a nut up to the flange. Use as jack screws to move the flange. Good luck |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 7:57am
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The after picture is with a different drum? Are the drums identical??? Are any other parts different in the before and after pictures? |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 12:41pm
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As you can see I had to put washers between the flanges and clutch hub/ brake drum to keep space to pull past lip on flange. The left side pressure plate sticks in 1/16 however the first disk has no teeth to grab drum and the one I replaced was same way. I guess what I'm asking is if it's only driving off of 9 on the left is it really mandatory to change the flange? ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 1:05pm
| You need 1/8 inch approximatif each side for pulling the stering cluch out and with a rebuilt stering cluch the flange will have more torke on and she could be oké for 10 hours maybe 50 hours but you have the hands inside and you better removed that flange |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2018 at 1:50pm
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Ya your right GemDozer. Fix it right the first time then I won't have to worry. ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 2:21am
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I woke up at 2:00 am with what I think is the answer. You replaced the drum with a drum from an HD7G. On the HD7G the The springs are longer requiring the clutch hub to be taller requiring the drum to be narrower. You said you replaced the drum. Your pictures indicate as gemdozer said the splined shaft is too far into the flange. Your pictures also indicate that it happened a long time ago judging from the rust. Your before picture shows the clutch hub extending out from the drum. Your measurement between flanges is greater than on my HD5. It all fits. Measure the total width of the replacement drum compared to the drum removed. Now I can go back to sleep ZZZZZZZZZZZ |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 5:46am
Good job Dozer! |
Dozer wrote:Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 12:37pm
Holy cow, I tried to reply to Dozer yesterday and some way got logged off and it just finally let me log back on. i checked my drum by ruler its 4 5/8 . i cant check the old one its in pieces . i eye balled the left side an it appears the same. i was able to get the pinion shaft flange off.  [IMG]uploads/18355/IMG_20180 ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2018 at 5:55pm
| 4 .62 is the same as my drum. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 8:38pm
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I removed the inboard pinion shaft bearing carrier and found that they should be replaced. The inner one looks good looking with a mirror, at least not rusty. Apperantly water seeped into the one I took out. I googled the AC part number and found a site called YOYOPART and came up with some different manufacturers numbers to take to the Napa tomorrow. However not much luck with the seal number but the site gave dimentions. I should have took it apart last night but this Ohio weather is screwy. 29 yesterday 57 today. ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 3:25pm
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Well Napa could get the seal but no luck on the bearing. Does anybody know where I would be able to get one or a lead on a good used one? ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 4:18pm
| I should still have 4 off these shafts, should have some good bearings for. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2018 at 4:47pm
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That would be great! After I looked it up and thought they were readily available I cut the race to get it off the shaft. Hined site, yep it's always 20/20. ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 2:50pm
| I check today and still have a good shaft bearing |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 3:11pm
| Please post bearing numbers. It helps if you can post ID, OD and width. Some OEM equipment has bearing numbers that are no longer available. |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2018 at 9:34pm
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I sourced the bearing locally. I'm in the reassembly process. I should have the clutch in by noon tomorrow. Sorry to Waste your time GemDozer, but a local company had one and I jumped on it. ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |
Posted By: ohio-d19
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 9:30am
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I put it together finally its better than it was but the first disc still out of the drum, barley but it sticks out. i said the heck with it, well something to that effect. Put it in the dirt eh mud rather and it does great. I will probably have to tear it down again when the final drive tells me what i screwed up. Now for the questions. The side I rebuilt the clutch lever pulls about 10 lbs easier than the other i did not , any thoughts on that? Should i be adding some sort of lube to the fuel? since the fuel i took out is at least mid 90s vintage. Thanks for all your input . ------------- not a mucanik I just pretend |