B hard starting. Driving me nuts
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=147560
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Topic: B hard starting. Driving me nuts
Posted By: Nick m
Subject: B hard starting. Driving me nuts
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 6:31pm
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Getting flustered. Got this b back together. Started hard by hand. Checked mag, had somewhat weak spark and was ugly so I bought a reman and put on. Carb was missing, so bought a new zenith and adjusted according to instructions. Engine/mag are in time. Adjusted valves, even swapped out rocker assembly. One I had was in better shape than what was in it. Thought it would start better with the starter. Had that rebuilt. Nope. New plugs and copper core wires. I have had it running a few times and runs great once running. Quite sure it isn't the mag. Acted the same way with the old one. Maybe the new carb? Ideas? Gas is running out of the carb. I've tried choking/not choking. Stumped. Not a mechanic by any means, but thought I had a basic understanding until now......   
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Replies:
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 6:32pm
| Also, had good gas flow from tank/bowl and can smell gas when cranking. Gas will run out of the bottom of the carb after cranking a bit. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 6:38pm
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'gas running out of carb'... NOT a good sign, great clue... she's royally flooded ! I suspect a sticky needle valve or binding float( won't close). The B guys will know the specs..since it was running idle + mixture screws should be OK, but best to confirm( +- 1/2 turn is OK for starters...). maybe look for a burr or 'something' that won't allow float to shut off the gas. I'd blow out all the accumulated gas in the manifold, pull plugs, either turn over or blast compressed air into plug holes. blow off plugs if wet. My one D-14 will flood..even with the sediment bowl valve 'off'...so you're not alone...lotsa help here ! Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 6:42pm
| I really didn't want to open up a brand new carb, but guess I should. I just kind of assumed/hoped the new stuff wouldn't need tinkered with lol |
Posted By: CrestonM
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 7:03pm
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I was in your position once. Not a mechanic, but could do basic stuff, like change spark plugs, etc. Wanted to learn more, so got a friend of Dad's to show me the basics, and turns out if you have a mentor (like these Allis guys here) most of that stuff is really easy. Opening up a carburetor was my worst nightmare back when I was 16. All I knew (or "thought", rather) was there were a ton of tiny parts, and didn't know if I could rebuild it. Once I got it all apart, (and realizing it wasn't as complex as I thought), followed some instructions, and took photos of how everything came apart, getting it back together wasn't so hard. In fact, I really learned how a carb worked, rather than just knowing that it worked, which was satisfying. Anyways, one small project on the B turned into another, and next thing I knew, I had the engine overhauled. So, my advice, keep an open mind and take it one step at a time. With the advice from the experts here, you can get through anything. My advice would be to take the wooden handle of a hammer and gently tap on the bowl of the carburetor before you start cranking. Sometimes if carbs sit on the shelf in inventory, I've had the floats stick. Sticking can cause gas to run out, like you observed. Most of the time, a good tapping will loosen things up, and the carb will continue to operate well. If that doesn't work, report back and the next step may be removing the bowl and inspecting the floats.
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Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 7:12pm
| I'll try that. Thanks |
Posted By: drobCA
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:14pm
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I had problems with a new carb as well, and didn't have the sage advice of Creston (thanks buddy, learned yet something else new from you here) to gently tap, so I took it off, separated the two halves and just diiddled with the float. put it back together and it ran fine. but with another one, what I found was the little shut off needle that the float assembly pushes up was what was stuck, so I just shook it loose, wiped it off, put it back in and verified that it would drop and also slide up freely. no problems since. ------------- 3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not. |
Posted By: Hubnut
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:17pm
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Also, get rid of the rubber hose between the tank and carb. You can buy a 1/4 inch brake line at NAPA and corresponding fittings for the sediment bowl and carb. This is what I have always used. I agree that it sounds like you're flooding it. Float is either stuck or improperly adjusted. We've all been there. Good luck. Keep us updated. ------------- 1940 B "Lucy" 1941 B w/ Woods L59 "Flavia" 1942 B w/ finish mower "Dick" 1941 C w/ 3-point "Maggie" 1947 C SFW w/ L306 "Trixie" 1972 314H |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:26pm
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How is your compression? How did you time it? It takes proper mix of air and fuel, compression and spark at the proper time to start and run. To check your time you can slowly crank by hand and the instant impulse snaps and you have spark at number one plug you need to have the TDC or CENTER line in the center of the inspection hole on the compression stroke. If you have a timing light and the tractor is running at high idle you would need to see the FIRE line in the center of the inspection hole. I don't know what your carburetor setting instructions are but when setting your carburetor after you are running you need to first set your idle. The idle speed is set with the stop screw on the back of the carburetor at the throttle lever. The idle screw sets the fuel air mixture to cause the engine to run smooth at the speed setting. The stop screw and idle screw needs to have slight changes as you slow the engine speed. After you have the idle screw set you then open the throttle to full speed. You then adjust the power jet to get the fastest RPM's the engine will run. At that point you turn the power jet screw in until you notice a slight slowing of the RPM's. That will give you the best setting you will get without using a dyno. The above settings worked in the 1950's when I was instructed and it still works in the 2000's |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:34pm
| I don't have a carburetor on any tractor of any make that gas will not run out the bottom when cranking with the choke set more than a few turns. If it is not leaking setting when not cranking you are good to go. |
Posted By: Bull
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:39pm
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The last B I bought acted exactly as you described. Previous owner put resistor plugs in, changed them out and that cured the problem. ------------- WD45 Diesel, RC,CA,IB, B, G, 616, Early B-10, D-10, Terra Tiger, 95G spreader, SC blade |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 8:46pm
That rubber hose will get you every time like the below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM4YbM8keMM" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM4YbM8keMM |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2018 at 9:26pm
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The shop manual should help get it started. http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf A dirty air cleaner can make it act like its choked all the time. Mud dauber nests in the intake plumbing can do that too. A loose lining of the hose from air cleaner to carburetor can do that too. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 4:39am
| I will. Had that laying on the bench. Didn't have the other. |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 4:46am
| Have all manuals. Been though them numerous times. All intake plumbing is clear. Have been off tractor to verify. |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 4:50am
| Quite sure timing is fine. #1 Is tdc when center mark is in the window. Also checked the valves to make sure. I'll play with the carb a little more. Hopefully it's something that simple. Will also double check plugs. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 5:36am
The picture was an attempt in sarcasim. I pulled that tractor for over ten years with the rubber hose and the no no never in line filter as well. |
Nick m wrote:Posted By: Hubnut
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 6:18am
Very good Dick. If you say it's okay--IT IS in my book. You've sure helped me so much. Thank you for getting me through and understanding Allis Chalmers B and C tractors. Steve ------------- 1940 B "Lucy" 1941 B w/ Woods L59 "Flavia" 1942 B w/ finish mower "Dick" 1941 C w/ 3-point "Maggie" 1947 C SFW w/ L306 "Trixie" 1972 314H |
Posted By: mdm1
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 6:18am
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You can take the carb off and blow into the gas inlet. If the air goes through needle valve is down, turn the carb upside down and do the same. If you can't blow into it the float should be working. I have been told if you have a rubber tip on the needle valve to tap it into the seat to kinda set it. Not fool proof but may help. ------------- Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK! |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 7:24am
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Another short term fix if you don't have time to dive into the carb float is when you get it running again and before you shut it off, go ahead and shut off the gas and allow it to run until it dies. Next time you want to start her, turn on gas, count to ten and crank her up. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 7:38am
| Understand. Hard to read facial expressions on here ;) |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:15am
Never would I say that a steel tube gas line was not better! That is the only tractor with a rubber gas line. The sarcasm was only to point out that he would not find that to be his problem. Probly also to show how lazy I am. 
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:28am
Oh, Nick, If you and I was face to face you would not detect in my facial expression when I was using sarcasm. Since I was in grade school I have used sarcasm as a form of self entertainment. Family taught! I learned to laugh until tears came streaming down my face without cracking a smile when people do not catch on. Sales clerks and waitresses are the most common victims. Drives Dixie crazy. She says it is mean. Also tractor pulls in past years. |
Posted By: drobCA
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 10:50am
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"Probly also to show how lazy I am" that's even funnier, Dick!  ------------- 3 Ford 8N's I loan to neighbors, but the '52CA, '41B and little B1 I do not. |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:05am
Oddly enough, I do the same thing. Whether right or wrong, I like to give service workers a day out of the ordinary. It gets really bad when I'm with a friend with a similar personality. Tend to embarrass our wifes while making a waitress laugh. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:10am
The timing is where the spark jumps when #1 is at TDC. My suggestion is to static time the mag so that the rotor arm is pointing directly at the contact for #1 spark plug wire when #1 is at TDC. It's not just piston to flywheel...infact those should always be lined up. the key is mag to piston timing. Once you get it started, you can twist the mag a bit at a slightly fast idle to see where it runs the smoothest (tuning by ear), or run it up to operating speed (so the advance is all in) and use a timing light to set the spark to the "Fire" line. ...but yeah, the carb shouldn't be leaking. My starting technique (cold) is to choke it and turn it until it pops, than take the choke all the way off (if it's warm out) or leave it a little on if it's a cold winter day, then crank it at about 1/2 throttle. See,s to always work. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:30am
| Pointing the rotor as you say works on a distributor. Not with a magneto. The clock spring spins before the rotor points to the terminal and then the rotor goes past the terminal. It happens quickly and if you move the rotor a tooth or so yo get it to point at the rotor at TDC the spinning of the armature would make the power after the rotor was past the terminal. Clear as mud I bet. |
Posted By: contrary_farmer
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:42am
| I just went through this with an Allis G. It took an act of congress to get it started so I had the carb rebuilt, put on a new starter bendix, cleaned out the fuel tank, new plugs and wires and distributor tune-up. It still didn't want to start after all that so I borrowed a timing light and that was the problem. It was way too advanced. Now she starts right up! Starts in the cold with no choke. Hang in there, you'll get it. |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 11:45am
That's why you go past the click, then back it up. I should have mentioned that. I've never timed a distributor on one of these, mag only. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 1:01pm
| Not to mention, don't you want it to fire before TDC? |
Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 1:17pm
Not when you are setting the static timing. Set it at TDC, start it, then adjust by ear. ------------- 1951 B |
Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 2:12pm
| Whoa whoa whoa. Go past click then back up? Clicked and let lay. How far to back it up? |
Posted By: Hubnut
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 2:43pm
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It may not be the absolute correct way, but this is how I time my B's and C's with a Mag. 1. Rotate the engine to TDC ("center") for the number one cylinder. Put you finger in the spark plug hole for #1 and crank slowly until you hear hissing (building pressure on compression stroke). Now, look in the window and turn VERY slowly until you see "center" in the window. 2. Once in this position, if everything is correct, the receiving tang for the mag should be approximately horizontal. 3. Prepare the mag. I put a plug in number one wire and clamp it in a vice. I rotate and activate the firing process until #1 fires. I usually double check this. Once #1 fires, do not move the mag tang. 4. Mate the mag to the engine. It is now ready to fire #2. It works for me every time. If there are internal problems with the cap or such, that is whole nother ball game. ------------- 1940 B "Lucy" 1941 B w/ Woods L59 "Flavia" 1942 B w/ finish mower "Dick" 1941 C w/ 3-point "Maggie" 1947 C SFW w/ L306 "Trixie" 1972 314H |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 5:23pm
Aw, You make it to easy. 
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Posted By: Nick m
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 6:14pm
It was the carb guys! Not sure what, but took it apart, pulled the float and needle, all looked good, shrugged my shoulders and put back together. Put on tractor and it fired right up. Thanks for your help. I think I need more allis' so I can be on here more.  thanks again
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Posted By: mdm1
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 6:26pm
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I have to do that to my C on occasion. You may have had something very small blocking the float needle. Good luck. Oh you will get more orange tractors. There is no vaccine for the disease. ------------- Everything is impossible until someone does it! WD45-trip loader 1947 c w/woods belly mower, 1939 B, #3 sickle mower 1944 B, 2 1948 G's. Misc other equipment that my wife calls JUNK! |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2018 at 8:53pm
| Dick is NOT lazy. He's old like me. Long before this post got to be two pages long I would have gotten a product called START poured the recommended amount in the tank, swished it around, turned off the gas and drained the carb. Turn the carb. back on, beat the heck out of it to show who the boss is. Wait an hour and start it up. Also you can take a bigger hammer and just beat the holy crap out a rear tire or other convenient place. Doesn't do a thing to help the tractor start, but helps the blood pressure immensely. |
Posted By: pumpkinman
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2018 at 10:28am
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YOUR 180 DGREES OFF TIME
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Posted By: HoughMade
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 12:36pm
Until the "Center" line is in the exact middle of the hole. When the impulser clicks over, the rotor arm will go past the #1 contact. When you click past it and then back it up the few degrees so the center line is in the middle of the hole, you are exactly at TDC. With static timing, that is when the rotor arm should be pointing at the contact, not after the click. ------------- 1951 B |