How do these specs look
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Forum Name: Pulling Forum
Forum Description: Forum dedicated to Tractor and Garden Pulling
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=146212
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Topic: How do these specs look
Posted By: blue924.9
Subject: How do these specs look
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2018 at 7:46pm
 How do these cam specs look, battling a lopey idle and wondering if its cam related ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Replies:
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 8:55am
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is it something you have been battling or recently installed cam and now have trouble. could be a fuel ratio issue at idle with more lift? ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: Morten.have
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 11:08am
| Is the cam lift I320E370 ?? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 12:23pm
| It's an A-C 175 gas grind. I sent Berry cam a new 175 camshaft some 25 plus years ago and they copied the cam lobe profile and have re-ground 100's of them to this spec. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2018 at 5:59pm
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It started after cam install. Hard to tell if its fuel or cam issue. 240 ci engine made 39 hp with stock cam and cracked manifold so I upgraded it to a tax 464 and new manifold. Should have plenty of fuel ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 4:53pm
| A "175" cam grind will idle just as nice as a stock cam grind. No difference in idle quality unless you're 1 tooth off in gear mesh. |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 6:52pm
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Ok will mess with the carb some more ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2018 at 6:52pm
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Would being 1 tooth off hurt horsepower? Was expecting more than 38 bp ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2018 at 3:59pm
| 38 HP on a what model?? A "WD" was 34 HP stock. A "WD" with a 175 cam might only be 38 or 39 HP. If you didn't dyno the tractor before and after the camshaft change with the same dyno and same air temperature, how would you know how much HP you gained ???? |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2018 at 5:17pm
| If you don't have the compression of the 175 then a 175 cam probably knocked the compression down a tad and cuts power |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2018 at 5:49pm
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Will the toning marks be the same from a wd to a wd45? We sent a 45 cam to be ground . We used the cam and gear in a regular wd front gear set ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2018 at 9:09am
| Timing marks are the same. You didn't answer the question.........how many HP did it have BEFORE you made the camshaft swap?????? |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2018 at 5:30pm
Not a clue, it was rebuilt due to being an oil burner with low compression. It would run out of power in the 4000 pound stock class if the track was grippy. It got a cam 45 crank and 1/8 inch overbore kit ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
DrAllis wrote:Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 7:34am
| Wish I would've found Berry's when I rebuilt my 45 last year. I'd checked around a little, but didn't find anyone that seemed reliable and would actually make the correct grind. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 9:17am
| Well, with 4 1/8" pistons on a WD-45 crankshaft, one should expect 50 HP or more. BUT, the only way that will happen, is if it has COMPRESSION. A WD-45 should have 125 lbs cranking compression and a D-17 has 145 Lbs. RUN A CRANKING COMPRESSION TEST ON THIS ENGINE WITH ALL 4 SPARK PLUGS REMOVED AND A BATTERY CHARGER CONNECTED AND THROTTLE WIDE OPEN. If it only has 100 lbs of compression, that is your problem. Poor quality pistons and sleeves...... seen it before. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 12:54pm
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An improperly degreed installation of the camshaft will also give poor quality results. If building a pulling motor, you don’t just install parts and hope for the best. I don’t work on the W_ engines, however I’ve never seen a reground cam that will install properly without some tweeking. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 2:50pm
| This camshaft grind is the same as a stock A-C 175 gas tractor engine. It needs no tweaking. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 3:59pm
| Until there is an actual, accurate compression test performed, everything is speculation. The engine has to have good compression to make HP. This is where to start. |
Posted By: steve fischer
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 6:25pm
| I think you have the wrong one , ha drallis then we built ours 4 .5 bores I did not have that much duration at 50 I am at 200, Berry has two different 175 grinds he has yours (the dotors, stock) and a hot 175 for high rpms the special, I recall when scott made pattern of 175 stock cam,but I do not know if you all know that Scott died about 5-6 years ago , one of his helpers at time is running the place ,does not know specs and how they work nor do I ,I had him do some cams for me and way to big no horsepower ,so I had a stock 175 casting number 249470 and took back to him to see what one was right , we did find drallis notes and stock 175 grinding specs cam should have pointy lobes not long flats or rounded I think we put the casting number by the grind you want call if I can help I am 50 miles from Berrys and can take my 175 cam back if needed 507 766 0551 |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 6:41pm
| Yes, a stock 175 grind has the lobe peaks very sharp. |
Posted By: PaulB
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2018 at 7:15pm
Unless the person set the cam core into the grinding machine 100% correct the centerline is bound to be off at least a few degrees. Also if I’ve completly followed this thread correctly the camshaft that was reground was a WD45 cam not a 175, so the specs are out of whack to begin with, so my take is that checking the cam lobe centrlines is the first item needed to diagnose the problem. ------------- If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 9:21am
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the cam card looks to me like an awfully long duration and high lift for being patterned after anything from the factory. 238* @ .050" is a lot of duration, and probably why it has no compression like Dr is trying to point out. Also, .480" valve lift? That is pretty huge llift numbers too. I'm betting this is the high rpm version they created from the 175 cam initially. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 9:51am
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I live about 30 miles from Berrys and locally he does not have a very good reputation. Have talked to several former unhappy customers, I wouldn't bring work there. ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 6:13pm
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With 238* of duration @ .050 lift on a siamesed port 4 cylinder you have 3 valves open for a long time connecting 2 cylinders. The engine will run like a sick air compressor.....In simple terms, it's not going to work. FOr any of these siamesed port 4 cyl engines in a low speed application, meaning 2500 RPM and less with a typical torque band of say 1800 down to 1200 RPM you can use the following examples. A typical camshaft duration for an engine like this at .050" is going to be 176* for most of the stock camshafts. A pulling camshaft for a smaller displacement engine is going to be in the 195* area, a mid sized engine or a larger displacement engine running with a little speed would be in the 215* range. A very large engine or one that is going to run very fast will be in the 224* area, any more than that and there's simply to much overlap. People like to throw the term "175 grind" around because every beginning engine guru is a camshaft expert. I've had people bring me camshafts to install because they had it ground to this magic spec and the card read like the one you posted a picture of. It's scrap metal. I know it's not what you want to hear, I'm sorry but stay away from Berry cam service. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 8:08pm
| The only 175 gas camshaft specs in the A-C service manual are the following: Cam lift at cam lobe .312" to .318"........rocker arm ratio of 1.488 to 1........ Intake valve lift .461" @ .012" valve lash.......Exhaust valve lift .458" @ .012" valve lash.....intake is open 220 degrees of rotation (2 degrees BTDC to 48 degrees ABDC)....exhaust is open 230 degrees ( 37 degrees BBDC to 12 degrees ATDC) |
Posted By: old farmer
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 8:18pm
| I So where do you go to get a good cam for work and or pulling? |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 7:40pm
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Yes where is a good place to get a camshaft ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 8:14pm
| I think Steve Fischer can help you out and Berry needs to grind you another cam to the real 175 spec for free. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 8:09am
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that's disappointing. I had a cam ground for a wc puller and provided rpm, cubes, etc for custom grind, perhaps I should check the card as its not installed yet. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 9:49am
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By the service manual specs if the tractor model 175 intake duration is 220* at .012 lift that would equal about (not exactly) 185* at .050. The exhaust duration per the AC service manual is 230* at .012 lift which would equal about (not exactly) 195* at .050. The lobe separation angle would be another important number which could be calculated by the numbers given. Your 240* @ .050 lift cam sounds way big.
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Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2018 at 2:19pm
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I took a bunch of camshafts one day and put them in a block and mapped them out with a degree wheel. I rember the WD-WD45 ones being around 176* @ .050 lift. The late camshafts were about the same, the 175 gas camshaft if my memory is correct was 184* @.050. Now condidering a guy with a couple dial indicators and a degree wheel, several years of wear on these used camshafts, etc these specs are pretty close, maybe not 100% accurate but they get us in the neighborhood. I've got the specs for the intake and exhaust as well as lobe seperation angles wrote down in a book in the shop. The .050" lifter rise is a pretty standard number, meaning most cams and grinders, master lobes will refrence this number. The "advertised duration" numbers are alwayse higher. Like saying 238 degrees of duration, there's a huge difference where that number is taken from as the initial ramp on the camshaft lobe is quite slow. But the problem comes in when people (or in this case the cam grinder) decides to use that number in place of the standard .050" lifter rise. We only have so much material on these camshafts to work with, the engine is a siamesed port 4 cyl with a flat crankshaft. It fires front, back-back, front-front, back-back. We have 3 sets of "overlap" to deal with, one is overlap within the cylinder, meaning at a point both valves are open at the same time. We also have intake to intake overlap on a given port. Meaning as one intake is closing the other one is opening. We also have overlap from front port to back port, but only half the time or half of the running cycles. We simply do not have as many degrees of crankshaft rotation to fill and empty the cylinder on this type of an engine as we would on one with individual ports. The engine also has relatively poor port shape, meaning the air stops and turns a few times to get from the atmosphere into the cylinder. It's not a nice fluid motion, we can't allow the velocity to ram the air in the cylinder like a better breathing engine can. Then we have the low RPM of the engine in the grans scheme of things, that piston is moving pretty slow. It takes time to start the breath and not much time to finish it. We just can't tollerate a lot of duration on these camshafts. A cam lobe will vary a lot, the speed in which we can lift the lifter is dependant on the geometry of the parts involved, in this case we have a decent sized lifter. The lobe shape will actually be pretty fast in our case. Which means our .050" duration will be closer to our advertised duration than in some others. In simple terms, the numbers don't look so impressive. Lift, everyone wants more lift, but in our case it doesn't do any good. However a lobe with more lift also will increase the higher lift durations. Think about it, that lobe that has .310" lift has how many degrees of duration at say .150" lift vs one with say .370" lift. We don't need to open the valve higher, these heads are done flowing pretty early in the lift cycle, but it's nice for the valve to be open further for longer. But we have to watch the seat to seat timing, it can't be to long because of the operating speed of the engine, the layout of the ports and breathing order. In order to reduce the overlap that is going to kill the engine, what happens if we shorten the duration on one lobe, we can lengthen it on the other to accomplish the same thing but give it more time to breathe. But in this case we can also change the lobe duration and lobe seperation angles to change the overlap from front to back on the engine or the relationship from the first cylinder in the cycle to the second one in the cycle on the same port. However it takes setup time, it takes multiple master lobes to be used. It's not the quick and easy put a master lobe on the grinder and grind a camshaft. If you want a good camshaft guy, Quality Performance Camshaft in Spencer Wisconsin. Randy is quiet, intelligent and very good with camshaft grinding and knowing what to use and where to use it. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 6:02pm
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By putting in a custom cam and altering the firing order, could that help this engine? ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: nborga87
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2018 at 9:54pm
| You need to check it with a degree wheel and put where your cam guy says to. But you would probably be better off with the stock cam in your nearly stock engine running nearly stock rpm. That cam in that engine will probably not be any improvement and you will probably lose low end power. The reason I’m saying this is I’ve been down this road before. Save this cam for when you build a 400 plus cubic inch screaming monster and put your stock cam back in don’t waste your time |
Posted By: alchpuller
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 9:46am
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238 deg. a lot of duration at 050, is race car stuff, the stock cam on a 240 is pretty good, you can cut the stock rockers and get about 1.65, Back the lash off to 025 and see if it calms it down, usually .001 is about 1 degree of duration |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2018 at 9:39pm
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Set valve lash to .030 and it's a lot better. ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |
Posted By: blue924.9
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 6:54pm
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Just an update. Swapped the stock cam back in this weekend and the machine runs 100x better. It's going back to the dyno on Wednesday ------------- hi my names dan, I am a young guy. i have a problem, i prefer my tractors orange and my clutches mechanical, thanks for letting me share |