Replacing seal on hydraulic track adjuster.
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=141793
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Topic: Replacing seal on hydraulic track adjuster.
Posted By: jerbob
Subject: Replacing seal on hydraulic track adjuster.
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2017 at 8:21pm
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Hello Group Working on the tracks of my HD16. Got the left side unfrozen and taking grease. Piston finally broke loose with a bang and piston moved out from flush position to showing about an 1/8". Left side had 1" of the ram exposed so I have a lot of adjustment left. Unfortunately after much pumping grease started to push out around the seal and piston not moving. To replace a seal on the adjuster do you have to split the track or can you do the seal replacement with the track on. Shop manual not here yet so using the forum for advise. |
Replies:
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 9:14am
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Hello again on my stuck and very hard to get to move hydraulic track adjuster. A question. I have been using brute grease force to get the slack adjusters to work. As said earlier, the left side has no adjustment showing meaning that I don't think they have been adjusted in over 30 years or more and I have full adjustment available. This track appears to have broken loose and I am not getting some piston movement. On the other side an inch of piston is showing and has been since I started. I pumped for what I thought was a long time before it started to feel like I was building some pressure and then I noticed fresh grease pushing out around the bottom of the piston which I assume is a seal rupture. What I have not checked and i will do, is to take the idler wheel covers off and see if the "slide bar" on both sides is clear and not rusted or built up with 30 or more years of cement hard dirt. The tracks were not cleaned it appears ever. Am I on to something I should have checked at the start of this to be sure the adjusters would in fact slide freely or is this just wishful thinking. After scouring posts going back a year with key words looking for ideas from past posts it dawned on me that the track adjusters must move on something in order to actually move the idler wheel. Ideas and opinions welcome. Thank you in advance. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 9:45am
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The piston seals on the older machines would take a set as moisture from outside would build up rust at the seal surface. My own machine has a leaker on one side but are well out in their bores indicating they are well past tolerance. The track will have to be split and the adjusting piston removed to reseal as well clean up the bore and the piston of the mechanism. Yours will have a master pin, it is the ONLY point you can split the track, that single pin will have a dimple or a drill mark on the face where the others will have flat surface. I used a 20# sledge to move the master on a lot of old track machines, it is laborious, it is nasty work and unless you have done it before will usually not end up well. I welded up a pipe guide for my pin driver slug as I have no one else to hold that bar while I swung the hammer. Took two hours with heat and that sledge to drive the pins on my spare machine on EACH Side. Removal of the track shoe(s) at and aside both sides of the master is helpful for some. There are no clamping components to the idlers, just guides, they possibly are corroded or debris loaded to where they will not move. The recoil spring mechanism has to see those idlers move freely to function as well. 
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Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 11:57am
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Were you able to re use the pins on the tracks you pounded out or they destroyed in the process? I was afraid I was going to hear I would have to split the track. That said, it may be a winter job as at this point the unit is very usable and not throwing the track or anything like that. Great pic dmiller. If I split the track and take the track off the idler wheel do I have to raise the unit off the ground so there is no weight on that side of the machine or can the dozer still sit on the track while the adjuster is worked on? Many thanks. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 12:08pm
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dmiller. I meant to ask you this as well and sorry of the host of questions of late. The previous owner said he was told that when the HD16 is idling, to be very sure to leave the clutch engaged but in neutral of course. Said a mechanic whom works on these units said that you can damage the throwout bearing if you are leaving the clutch Dis Engaged while idling. The manual says nothing of this other than prolonged idling is not good anyway as it loads up the machine. Is this advise fact or fiction? You sound like a good "wrencher" and would know if this is bunk or not. |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 12:10pm
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the dozer should set on the truck wheels on hard ground or concrete. if you get the track loose you will be able to move the idler without picking up on the front of dozer. in fact i would recommend breaking the track near the sprocket and then driving forward until the track is all underneath or you will be fighting it anyway.
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 12:20pm
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just like on a truck or car. if your pushing the clutch in the pilot bearing is turning. always engage the clutch when engine is running. if not, your spinning your pilot bearing and the clutch yoke is spinning on the shaft. if the yoke gets low on grease it could gall the shaft and lock together. not likely but can happen. we had this happen on an hd10 we had a new bushing made for the clutch yoke, it was a steel bushing and apparrently was a little too tight as even with the clutch released, it kept moving. tore it down and had galled and stuck on shaft. had a brass one made slightly larger and still going. also, if you can buck the track properly and drive the pin without much damage you can reuse the master pin. sometimes they just will not come out and swell up, then you have to use a torch in which case you will need a new one.
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 12:56pm
As scarce as undercarriage parts are I am reusing and trying to not damage as much as possible. The idlers on Most crawlers do not rest on the ground or in pressure against the track to ground, the bottom rollers do 90% of machine support. You will be best off to remove the blade when you ready to do this as I the bucket on my machine, less to work around or over. And Cal is correct on the clutch as he always is! 
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Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 1:03pm
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Thank you for the response and information CAL(KS). 1. I am glad you confirmed the clutch being engaged whenever the tractor is running. 2. On the track removal, I have or had it blown up in my mind as a huge monster mess. I have room in my barn so that will not be a problem. I will get everything together prior to splitting the track and a good chance i will only have to do one side. Thinking of buying a pair of new adjuster from a company called Henderson. Their hydraulic adjusters are called Hydra Justers. They look like nice units and come as complete unit. Claim to be "Bolt On" for my 16 but that is rarely the case. Still, I like the idea of a new unit than dropping the track to replace a seal and service the unit only to find out the ram is beyond repair. Waiting for a quote and i will share with the forum. 3. Question. Is the master pin, if needed, a rare commodity? Where can I get a replacement pin if needed. Thank you for your help. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 1:06pm
Thank you Dmiller. I for sure will work to save everything I can for this project. I know before I purchased this machine that parts are scarce and caution be used when wrenching and pounding. |
DMiller wrote:Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 5:40pm
| On my HD6 I removed the track adjusters without splitting the track. pull the front idler forward, back off the adjuster, split the yoke from the idler assembly, remove the track adjuster with the yoke. The bracket that covers the track adjuster has to be removed from the truck frame. I am not certain that this can be done on other AC models but it works on HD6 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 5:49pm
| Good plan. Regardless if it works or not, I will try all methods before I split the tracks. Really appreciate the thoughts. |
Posted By: doctorcorey
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 10:01pm
| I found that on some of these old track adjusters, pump some grease in there and just wait a while. Drive the tractor lightly for a while and you might find the thing finally loosened up and you may find yourself letting some pressure off to loosen the tracks. On these old machines, haste makes waste and sometimes, getting them to cooperate is like trying to entice a shy sparrow to land on your windowsill. Learn all you can before jumping in and ruining a lot of practically irreplaceable parts. I'm not fooled by many things mechanical, but these old machines ( I have four) will challenge the best of us. Good Luck |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 6:57am
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Sound advice doctorcorey. I Unintentionally did just that. Once I got one side to bang loose and the piston moved about an 1/8" I stopped and went to the other side. After getting grease pumped in what I think was a dried up adjuster and some grease started oozing out around the seal, I stopped to rethink and stopped for the night. That was last week and going back to work on it today. Thank you for the advice of restraint and slow moves. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 8:14am
You were right in my case Dozer. On the right side track, I was able to use a 20ton bottle jack and a 4x4 to push against the track recoil housing and the idler moved forward with a pop. Found that the end of the adjustment rod that fits in the track recoil housing was loose and away from the housing by almost 1/2". Was able to take the guard off the goes over the track adjustment rod and the entire assembly came off. Yoke and all. Got the piston unstuck and was able to rotate the piston 360 degrees and then was able to get it to move out with grease. Would like to pull the piston and replace the seal and buff up the piston and hone out the cylinder and reassemble. what would you hone out the hydraulic cylinder with? |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 8:57am
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small brake hone? im assuming its mostly the end that needs it not way down in there ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 10:14am
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thank you Cal(KS). Have you ever pulled the piston out of an adjuster before. Is the seal the only thing holding it in there other than pressure or old grease? |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 10:24am
I don't have anything new enough to have a hydraulic adjuster  . I have no experience there...I could guess it would be similar to a hydraulic cylinder? cant really say------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 11:05am
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hahahaha understood Cal. Good one.
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Posted By: AC Mel
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 2:35pm
| The HD11B series is just a little bit different....sometimes I could finish getting them out with the air nozzle instead of pumping grease. Be very very careful with that method...it can come out like a rocket and go through the wall of the shop! The round flap wheels work good for honing that out also...we have used both methods in the past. |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 2:43pm
| Should be a leather packing not just a seal on the piston, will need to let it soak in a light oil as ATF or hydraulic fluid for a time prior to install to allow it to expand and wetted up so will keep a seal. Easiest way to compress enough to install is thin sheet tin(like ductwork tin) and hose clamps like for radiator hoses, leave a length of piston open so can start it then tap in gently with a block or dowel of wood with a hammer. |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 5:23pm
| I have made seals that I could not buy out of delrin. Ask a machine shop or hydraulic cylinder repair shop. When parts wear make a custom size seal to compensate for the cylinder or rod wear. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 8:02am
I have been told that piston can come out pretty quick with air. If all else fails, i will go for launch. Good idea on the round flap wheels. I was also thinking of a cylinder hone as well but might not be aggressive enough for such an old pitted cylinder. Thank you AC Mel |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 8:05am
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Good idea. When putting the new seal in, does the piston go in first and then the seal or seal in first and then piston. My shop manual not due in till next week, and Im sure this is covered in it but I like the practice advise this forum offers from hands on experience. Thank you again. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 8:06am
thank you dozer. Have not heard of Delrin before but worth checking out. |
Posted By: hd16b
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 9:48am
| The seal goes on the piston.the old one a lot of times stays in the housing when taking the pistonout. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 12:48pm
| Thank you hd16b. |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 4:19pm
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I don't know if you would be able to do this on your HD 16 cylinders. We had bad cylinders on our FA 10 adjusters and a local machine shop machined them out and pressed in new liners. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 4:49pm
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Thanks Ian. I won't bother anyone further till I pull the piston and see what I have. Thank you everyone. |
Posted By: LeonR2013
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 8:12am
| Jerbob if you can pump some brake fluid into the ares of the seal and the seal isn't torn the brake fluid will soften the seal and it may stop leaking. |
Posted By: jerbob
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2017 at 9:42am
| Oh I like the sounds of that. Great idea and thank you |
Posted By: Wbice
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 10:13am
| Hello jerbob, I see in your post you were looking at the Henderson hydra justers. I also have a HD16 with track tension issues and was thinking about trying them. Did you happen to use them? If you did I would love to hear how it went. |