Wire - a mystery to me! Advice ..
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134857
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Topic: Wire - a mystery to me! Advice ..
Posted By: gdtractor
Subject: Wire - a mystery to me! Advice ..
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 4:00am
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Hi ... I can't figure out where A WIRE goes .. and several others .. ? It is a 1941 C with B frontend and steering .. bought it not running . I am not sure if this is positive or negative ground but it does have an electric starter on it .. it didn't have a battery in it when I got it .. so not sure of the voltage 6 or 12 < width="560" height="315" ="https://www.youtube.com//5j5znRDFL80" border="0" allowfullscreen=""> Any input would be appreciated .. it is a 1941 C with a B front end .. I have the clean like new head back on .. and have the head torqued and valves are smooth, clean, and free as can be now . Engine turns nicely now . Thanks a lot Gary |
Replies:
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 4:03am
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Here is a video of the problem I noted above .. thx Gary https://youtu.be/5j5znRDFL80 <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5j5znRDFL80" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 5:01am
| [TUBE]http://youtu.be/5j5znRDFL80[/TUBE] |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 7:36am
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There should be a wire going from the mag to a switch on the dash to ground the mag and stop the engine. You will need to trace the wire from that switch assuming it hasn't been removed to determine which wire you need to connect. Looks like there are plenty of wiring diagrams on the net. Just Google Allis Chalmers C wiring diagram. ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: Sugarmaker
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 10:43am
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Looks about normal for one of these machines. Get a good wiring diagram. Then decide if you want to keep it original or if you want to up grade to 12 volt neg ground system. Do you want to use the generator, or go with a new 12 volt alternator? Any thing you do to go away from original will require a custom wiring system. You wont find it in a book. I like to upgrade the old tractors 12 volt, alternator, neg ground, new wiring, and switches too. Some guys want them box stock. The answers will be on the forum for you. Regards, Chris ------------- D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 11:33am
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If you want to keep it as it came from the factory and the battery cables are still on it, I believe you will find that one cable has a bigger battery connector than the other, because one battery post is larger than the other. So that is the way the battery goes. ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 3:54pm
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Thx much ! Gary
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Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 3:56pm
 Gary! You'll find the answer to anything you care to ask on here.Our resident electrical wizards will chime in here pretty soon and they will guide you. I have a diagram that might help........but it is for an Alternator, not a Generator, but might get you going in the right direction. ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 3:56pm
| Thank you Chris. Gary |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 4:01pm
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Thanks much Ted!! Not having a battery with it when I got it, nor the ground cable .. makes it a little more complex .. But I believe I have plenty of "stuff" to go on to get it right now .. With a little tracing of the wires .... etc .. (I just remembered today I could go over and take a look and pictures of our Allis B .. 1950 - it has an alternator on it but at least I could get some help .. ) We are in Michigan and the B is put away in the polebarn .. it has been in the teens today .. and windy so I have not ventured out much more that to fill the stove .. ha !! Thanks again .. Gary
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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 4:53pm
" " > ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 4:58pm
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on a distributor you have wire #9 to get power to the coil/ point.......... on a magneto, you don't have a power wire, the switch grounds out the wire to the mag to STOP motor. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 6:46pm
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The schematic Steve posted is Pos. ground in case you missed that
------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 6:54pm
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I have a G, B, C, and CA shop manual on line that you can down load complete with wiring diagrams. http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees/Allis-Chalmers-G-B-C-CA-Service.pdf Even with just one battery wire the posts are enough different in size to tell the difference. The wire end will fit the correct post flush with the top of the post. If you can find regulator or cutout and generator numbers Steve (NJ) should be able to identify the voltage. If it is the original three brush generator with a cutout, I is probably designed for 6 volts but will charge an 8 volt battery and maybe a 12 volt battery. Polarity with a generator depends mostly on the ammeter connections and how the generator has been flashed. For sure when you connect a battery be sure to flash the generator (covered in the owner's manual) before you start the engine the first time to make sure the generator builds voltage with the same polarity as the battery. If it is still positive ground the positive post of the ammeter will be going to the battery and the negative post to the ignition switch and generator. If it has been properly converted to negative ground the negative post of the ammeter will be going to the battery and the positive post to the ignition switch and generator. If it has battery ignition for positive ground the positive post on the coil will be going to the points and the negative post to the ignition switch. The opposite for negative ground. If magneto the coil won't be visible to check and isn't affected by the battery polarity. The coil might have an indication of its voltage that should match the battery voltage. There is little doubt that an alternator takes better care of a battery, but isn't vintage. And little doubt that an alternator would be negative ground though alternators have been made positive ground few have been made positive ground and SAE standards since the 1960s have only allowed negative ground, I think because transistor radios don't survive reversed voltage. Before that the tractor and automotive industries were split on grounding which proved that both worked, just confused customers to some extent. About that same decade SAE removed 6 volts as appropriate in their standard. A three brush generator will have a wire from the field post connected to extra terminals on the light switch so turning the lights on increases the generator current. Gerald J. |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 10:27pm
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You are exactly right . So - while trying to figure this out .. with the diagram and so forth .. I need the battery for lights and the starter primarily because this has a mag on it .. (so until I get the wires figured out for the generator - if the battery is charged to turn the starter - if points etc is okay in the mag it should run .. in DAYLIGHT . :) \ and the wire running to the mag - as you mentioned - is for a "kill switch" not live wire for a coil at all (I am sure you knew that Ha!) ... Thanks Gary |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 10:29pm
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I did .. but it makes sense now . Here is what I wrote above So - while trying to figure this out .. with the diagram and so forth .. I need the battery for lights and the starter primarily because this has a mag on it .. (so until I get the wires figured out for the generator - if the battery is charged to turn the starter - if points etc is okay in the mag it should run .. in DAYLIGHT . :) \ The wire to the mag is for a "kill switch" at the drivers seat .... thanks Gary" |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 10:47pm
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Thanks Gerald .. It is making sense now . Here is what I wrote below: So - while trying to figure this out .. with the diagram and so forth .. I need the battery for lights and the starter primarily because this has a mag on it .. (so until I get the wires figured out for the generator - if the battery is charged to turn the starter - if points etc is okay in the mag it should run .. in DAYLIGHT . :) \ Gary |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2017 at 10:51pm
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Thanks so much .. it is making sense now . here is what I wrote to someone else .. "So - while trying to figure this out .. with the diagram and so forth .. I need the battery for lights and the starter primarily because this has a mag on it .. (so until I get the wires figured out for the generator - if the battery is charged to turn the starter - if points etc is okay in the mag it should run .. in DAYLIGHT . :) \ Gary"
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Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2017 at 10:17am
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There have been reports of Bs and Cs with magneto running fine with electric starter without lights all day. There is no electrical load on the battery after starting. Just means it ought to be recharged overnight if used daily. Some batteries do deteriorate if left partly discharged, the lead sulfate left on the plates while discharging tends over time to accumulate larger crystals that are harder for charging to convert back. There are desulphating chargers and some of the battery maintainers have that capability, but mine gives up if its two amps can't charger a battery in a day or two. There have also been reports of Bs and Cs with magnetos starting poorly with 12 volts applied to the 6 volt starters because of cranking faster. Fast enough the impulse mechanism in the magneto doesn't work but the magneto isn't spinning fast enough to make an adequate spark way below idle speed. The wire size for the missing battery cable is a bit critical, the 6 volt starter draws more current than a 12 volt starter so the skinny cables at the Wallyworld battery kiosk tend to be too wimpy. Minimum voltage drop in 6 volt wiring and connections is crucial to operation. Battery posts and connections have needed cleaning twice a year even on cars run daily. A task my dad assigned to me in the late 1950s. One or two of the skinny starter wires from wallyworld might slow down a 12 volt starter so the impulse works reliably. Gerald J. |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2017 at 11:04am
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Thanks Gerald . Gary
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Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 12:49am
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HI .. someone posted a firing order .. with the distributor in the photo . If you read this .. could you post it again .. it is for my 1941 C - got it to fire so far .. finally got the starter fixed now the battery is bad . no worries on that . but want to make sure I have the correct firing order before I get "real serious" . thanks SO MUCH Gary
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Posted By: TomMN
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 8:58am
| The firing order is 1 2 4 3 |
Posted By: gdtractor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 11:03am
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Thanks SO much for your reply .. crazy ... ha .. I worded it wrong .. I meant on the distributor? at TDC or compression stroke of #1 cylinder - which "hole" does the plug wire go in? PLease Thanks Gary
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Posted By: Jim Hancock
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 11:45am
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Pull the cap and see which one the rotor is pointing to. ------------- How blessed we are by HIS GRACE! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 11:59am
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#1 cylinder on teh engine is closest to rad, then 2,3,4 Hopefully you took a picture or two before tearing the wires off? if not, oopsy... #1 on the dist _might_ be the one closest to the rad, though it's best to hand turn engine, find the TDC mark on the flywheel and put rotor back on. That'll tell you for sure, then it's clockwise from there 1-2-4-3.... it'll run real rough as 1-2-3-4 BTW..... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: TomMN
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 1:26pm
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When you have a mag you can look at someone else's and make your wires the same as theirs. On a distributor number one wire can be in any one of the four holes, and the distributor can be positioned in any part of the rotation. Technically if you want to mess with someone you can make any one of the four on a mag be number one too. You need to find TDC on compression stroke on cylinder number one (Closest to the radiator) then wherever the rotor is pointed is where you put the number one plug wire. Then clockwise looking down on the distributor make them 1,2,4,3.
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