24 volt, but + or - ground?
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=130189
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Topic: 24 volt, but + or - ground?
Posted By: darrel in ND
Subject: 24 volt, but + or - ground?
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2016 at 8:40pm
| I got the starter for my forty-five road grader back from the repair shop today, and if all goes well, which it never does, I'll get it put on tomorrow. But, is this going to be positive, ,or negative ground? Anyone know? The generator and the regulator I am assuming are stock, but have been painted over, so I can't read anything off them. Thanks, Darrel |
Replies:
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2016 at 9:20pm
| Man,you come up with some good ones.... |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2016 at 9:22pm
| Ask the shop they just repaired it hopefully they know what they fixed... I haven't personal heard of a 24 volt positive ground but that doesn't mean they didn't make them. |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2016 at 10:27pm
|
Darrel Ask and you shall receive Originally 4 x 6 volt batteries positive earth. Shouldn't matter to the starter either way if you polarise the generator. Consider putting an alternator on it if your generator gear is sus. I'm using a 50 amp Bosch (so negative earth), with the Bosch mounting bracket welded on top of a generator mount from a HD 11 - straighter top surface than the AC 45 one I got so easier to fit the Bosch mount. I used the pulley from a HD 11 generator - shaft was right but no key so I had to use some blue locktite. No problem with getting it to excite. For batteries I'm using 2 N70zz's. They fit Toyota Landcruisers and now most other things around here. No trouble starting the AC 45 or the FA 10 dozer. But we don't have your winters. Hope this helps.  |
Posted By: donoman
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 1:42am
Posted By: donoman
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 1:47am
|
My HD6'S (5) 4 with generators are all positive earth and run as Ian Beale does N70zz.... very well, the one with the alternator you have to always remember to turn the master switch off
|
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 5:15am
|
Donoman The Bosch is single wire and I've just wired everything through the original key switch with no drain problems so far. I had to do a bush rebuild on the key switch, so the starter has an additional solenoid in the wiring. I gutted the switch tumblers as no key came with the machine. Actually it had a solenoid starter with the wires unsoldered and it was run with a mechanical linkage that used the solenoid as a switch. Resoldering has worked so far. The adjuster strap is the original AC 45 one, which is getting to the limit. A longer angle bracket at the bottom will fix that when I need to. |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 6:28am
|
Starters, those with field coils NOT magnets, always spin same direction regardless of polarity. It's just 'they way it is'. Now, permanent magnet motors as found in lawn tractors WILL spin backwards when wired up backwards. Neighbour found that out one day..... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 7:57am
| Many older machines with generator and external regulators were + ground. It does not mater if you wire it + or - ground as long as you polarize the regulator so that the generator will charge correctly. As jaybmiller says starters with field coils will always turn in the correct direction. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 8:49am
| Soooooo, what I am hearing here, is that most likely, it was originally a positive ground unit. I was pretty sure that starters don't care if their polarity is reversed or not, and I guess it seems we are all in agreement there. I wasn't sure how the generator and regulator would re-act, but I guess I would just need to polarize that system accordingly, eh? And which 2 wires is it that you jump accross to polarize? Thanks for all of the replies. If I get it going today, I'll let y'all know. Darrel |
Posted By: Dozer
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 8:56am
| Gen to Bat |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 9:23am
| Thanks dozer |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 10:23am
|
my 145T with 7000 engine is 24 volt positive ground and should be of same vintage ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 3:27pm
| Is this a gas or diesel, if gas make sure the coil is wired the same. |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 4:52pm
|
the started doesn't care on polarity - but the field windings do care in which direction the starter faces to the front of the engine - found that out when I rebuilt the starter on my IH 460 tractor with starter facing back to operator - used a Chev field and starter turned backwards - had to buy new coil for the IH part number . Some regulators are polarity sensitive - for generators - but starter - just turns when voltage and lots of amps applied . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 6:08pm
It's a diesel. Has the 516 Buda/allis. Darrel |
tadams(OH) wrote:Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 6:14pm
| Well, I didn't get anything done on it today. Number one; darn important work gets in the way of this fun stuff. And number two; there is a big spacer ring that mounts between the starter and the bell housing, and that accidentally got left at the starter repair shop. It never should have went up there in the first place, but my son didn't know that, and he was the one who dropped the starter off, and I was the one who picked it up. Minor problem. When I get back to it, I am going to go with the positive ground plan. That seems to be the general concensus. Thanks for all of your replies. Darrel |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 8:31pm
|
Darrel Positive ground should get points for original. Sound of the engine running will get more though I'd reckon |
Posted By: AC220fan
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 10:30pm
|
Darrel, If you are interested in knowing what the polarity was, one way you might be able to tell is, if it has an amp-meter and lights, after installing the batteries, before starting the engine turn on the lights it should display a discharge. but if it displays a charge with with the engine off, then the polarity has changed. If the amp-meter always reads backwards, then you need reverse all the wires on the amp-meter, like take all the wires on a post and move them to the other post. So all the wires end up on the other post from where they were. The guys are correct, the starter does not care one way or the other. But the generator and regular does very much so, be sure to polarize it before starting the engine the first time. It is normal to see an spark or arc when doing so. Do not leave it connected any longer then 10 seconds as it will over heat the armature. It is actually the field coils/poles that need to be polarized, not the armature. Lots of generator regulars are marked with a "N" or a "P" to tell you which way they are intended to be grounded. How do I say this, but you need to be careful when polarizing the gen. or you could fry to regular, if you don't disconnect it while polarizing the gen. It might be best to ask a local electric shop what the exact procedure to use to polarizing the generator. Or refer to the service manual. Good luck and have a nice fall |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2016 at 10:53pm
| Thank you, 220 fan. I am now pretty sure that I will not be able to play, I mean work, with this project until at least the weekend, but when I do get back to it I'll definitely keep y'all informed. Thanks to all who have contributed information. Darrel |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 2:28am
| honey do's huh? lol |
Posted By: DMiller
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 8:52am
| I just recently bought a 24v alternator for my AC. It is to replace the generator which was positive ground where once converted my system will be negative ground. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 9:02am
some of that. Some trying to do stuff to pay the bills. Some cattle chores needs doing. Fences need fixing. And trying to keep my tractors happy and my family running. Darrel |
Posted By: shameless (ne)
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 12:21pm
| shucks Darrell....make them fences right the first time and you won't need to keep fix'in them! bouts the only'est time we had to fix our cattle fences was when I shot that bull in the gonads with a BB gun! then we fixed them for bouts 3 days! whew! (dad never figgered that one out) |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 6:08pm
| Uhhhhh, Shameless. I am kind of stupid, so why don't you come up here and build a couple miles of your super fence for me, and I'll watch you very closely so I learns how to do it. If I don't catch on after a couple miles, just keep on going. I'm sure that I'll eventually learn it. I'll even provide the materials and equipment for you. Darrel |
Posted By: Ian Beale
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 6:57pm
|
Reflections on looking down a NEW fence "And he sees the vision splendid Of a sunlit fence extended And he's pretty sure The stock won't stray this night " Adapted from lines of a well known Oz poem. I hate having yet another go at propping up a fence that is well time expired - or, in a valuer's phrasing "beyond prudent redemption". Lesson was learnt one day when I and more steel posts were heading out to prop up such a fence. On counting it already had enough steel posts holding it up to rebuild about half the fence. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 26 Oct 2016 at 7:33pm
| Shameless if you can build a fence to keep the cows in maybe you can go to Texas and build one down there when you get done. I hear there will be a building boom down there soon. |