Square Baler Issues
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=108580
Printed Date: 20 Jan 2025 at 8:52am
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Topic: Square Baler Issues
Posted By: powerwagon78
Subject: Square Baler Issues
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:45pm
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I know it ain't orange, but I can't get the NH 269 baler I bought this spring to tie at all...I adjusted the twine fingers and the twine pressure like my manual says, and I still can't get it to tie...I am attaching 3 pictures, one is of how the twine looks and the other two are of my hooks after the knotter assembly has completely finished cycling. Shouldn't the twine be going through the hook (as it is on one side but not the other) in order to be able to tie it? On the other side it is just going over the top of it instead of through it. Also, the previous owner put new needles on it, and I know they are supposed to rub the knotter frame slightly when they go near the twine discs, but mine are rubbing hard enough to leave tiny metal shavings. I adjusted the needles as much as I could, but they couldn't adjust enough to stop rubbing as hard as they were. Any ideas what could be causing that? Thanks in advance for all the help, I am getting really frustrated with not being able to rely on any of my equipment to make hay when we get short periods without rain this year....if I could just get this thing to tie knots, it would be great, everything else works great it feeds twine ok, cuts it good, etc, etc... Jeremy uploads/8932/20150705_195900.jpg" rel="nofollow - uploads/8932/20150705_195900.jpg uploads/8932/20150705_195833.jpg" rel="nofollow - uploads/8932/20150705_195833.jpg uploads/8932/20150705_195756.jpg" rel="nofollow - uploads/8932/20150705_195756.jpg ------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
Replies:
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 1:11am
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We run a Massey, so it may just be me, but that needle in photo number two looks like it's bent on an angle? You may be able to straighten it- we broke a needle last year, and repaired it. I'd make sure that it's straight and true before you do anything else. I'm sure somebody on here has run one of those before. I know that Massey's are kind of the odd-man out. |
Posted By: nborga87
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 2:53am
| is the knife arm scraping the bottom of the bill hook and wiping the twine off |
Posted By: richfarmsystem
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 4:27am
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also check bill hook pressure and make sure no grooves on the bill hook |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 7:36am
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Is the needle adjusted properly? Is it laying the twine alongside the twine that is in the twine holder? Can you trip the knotter and have someone turn the flywheel so you can watch it all in slow motion? |
Posted By: Gordy
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 8:01am
| I use a New Holland 273 when I have needed to work on the knotters I clean all the hay out of it and completely clean it with the pressure washer then use the manual and trip the knotter and run it thru by hand about one inch at a time when the needles get to the knotter and compare it to what the manual says works for me just finishes 12 acres of alfalfa 1100 bales had 2 misties because my knots didn't hold going too new ball of twine. |
Posted By: powerwagon78
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 9:01am
What you are seeing in the picture ain't the needle, the needles have already gone all the way back down at this point, those pics were taken after the knotters had run their complete cycle. Also, the twine is getting swept off the bill hook, at least most of the time. Usually the twine knot and all are laying on top of the hay with the loop in it, like the one picture shows, just not with the other part through the loop. How do I check the bill hook pressure? I didn't feel any sharp edges on it. I think I'm going to just grind a little off the needles where they are rubbing real hard on the knotters. They are delivering the twine to the twine disc, so I don't think that is what is screwing up the knotting, it just worries me that they are going to break something with as hard as they are rubbing on the knotter frame right there. Is there a way I can run the knotters with twine in them even if there ain't any hay being pushed back through it? It's just a pain in the ass to have to keep cleaning the chamber out every time I try something that don't work. Jeremy ------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
matador wrote:Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 9:25am
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To splice twine like putting in a new roll, make a square knot, not a granny knot. Then roll it between your palms until its barely a lump. A square knot has the line and end strand next to each other passing the other line loop. A granny knot has them opposite. A granny knot slips easily, a square knot doesn't. http://www.animatedknots.com/reef/" rel="nofollow - http://www.animatedknots.com/reef/ Gerald J. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 9:28am
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Grind it to make it fit? Once you've ground them there is no going back. Why not try adjusting the needles first? I know the NH manual gives adjustment specs for the needles. Also, have you checked the timing of your knotter? Are you sure your chain didn't jump a cog on the sprocket? |
Posted By: Steve Zidlicky
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 9:56am
| DO NOT grind any off the needles. In over 50 years of running square balers I have never heard or read to do that. they do not make needles with any extra metal on them. now, do not have any hay in baler to check it out. have someone else slowly turn the flywheel as you watch it work. to start out, after threading the twine through the needles, tie the ends off on the yoke (the part the needles attach to) and cycle the needles to where they just are rubbing the knotter frame them pull on the twine by hand by reaching into bale chamber and grabbing it so there is tension on the twine as the knotter begins the tying cycle. if the twine does not have tension the bill hooks will not grab the twine. you adjust the needles using the two bolts holding them on the yoke. I messed mine up two years ago by being in a hurry and tied the twine to the outside of spool instead inside and when the needle entered bale chamber broke both of them because too much twine tension (being hooked wrong). I put another set of needles on adjusted them as perfect as possible and the baler would not tie. It had worked good up to that time. as it turned out the twine arms (with the ball looking rollers on the end) had enough wear that I had to buy new ones. $155 each then it worked ok again. I still do not understand why they worked ok before my goof then would not work afterward when the only thing that I did was change needles. I have a knotter book somewhere if you need to call me. maybe I can help, maybe not. I usually have so little trouble that when I do have trouble I am not used to working on it and it takes some thinking. send me private message and I will give you my #. good luck and think twice before doing anything. above all, do not grind any off needles. you might have a sprung yoke or something else maybe the reason that it was for sale. one thing for sure, you can't cut corners and expect a knotter to work. Steve |
Posted By: Stan R
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 10:31am
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Get the manual and follow it as written--> Make sure the unit is timed correctly, twine is threaded thru the baler correctly, correct tension, needles are adjusted correctly (and I second the fact you should not start grinding the needles!), etc. etc. Though balers are complicated, if you follow all the set ups for it, you should be able to resolve any issues with it. Check for wear on the tips of the needles (they groove after long use and we used a hard rod to fill in any grooves with a bit of post filing. Check for wear on the twine tensioner. Essentially, go over it with a fine tooth comb per the manual and i have to believe you will be ok afterwards. |
Posted By: matador
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 10:49am
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This is what happens when I look at stuff around midnight! I wouldn't grind on the needles, either. If they're hitting, they're either not in correctly, or they're bent. I can't help you on knotters, though. Massey had the Sure-Tie knotters, which are completely different. |
Posted By: orangereborn
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 11:47am
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If the plunger took out the old needles, check the needle support/bail. Many times it will get twisted if the needles are well into the bale when hit. Seen that several times. That may be why you don't appear to have enough needle adjusting tolerance. Look for a twist near the needle mounts, or cracked or pealed paint....Dale Orangereborn 964 192nd Ave New Richmond, WI 54017 715-247-3079 715-781-2055 mailto:Orangereborn@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: tadams(OH)
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 1:46pm
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Check your twine plate where the twine come out of the box. If the groove gets to deep they will not hold enough pressure on the twine. We have brazed the grooves to build them up. Tom
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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 2:42pm
The twine fingers have to be adjusted to the manual specs to tie like this. I had a tie problem on the right side and tried to adjust them with hay in the chamber. I took all the hay out and turned the flywheel inch by inch watching every thing work. I found the shaft in front of the knotters the works the twine fingers was bent and well as the arm/link that hooks into the twine fingers. I also found the twine finger pivot bracket was broke loose from rust. the bent shaft and link caused the twine finger to be out of time. With hay in the chamber I was adjusting the right one to look like the left one but didn't/couldn't watch them turn and when they started to turn. I have not repaired the left twine finger pivot and it is a little sloppy and looks different than the repaired right one in this picture but still ties. I baled 22 bales Saturday without a miss. 
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Posted By: powerwagon78
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 4:55pm
Here is a pic of one of the needles, you can see how bad they are dragging, but I haven't ground them yet. The previous owner said a log took out the old needles, but I'm not sure he put the right ones back on it. I also noticed this morning that the plates that keep pressure on the twine had grooves wore in them pretty bad, both on the flat part and in the holes the twine goes down through, and is not keeping good pressure on the twine, so that is probably part of the issue. They want 100 bucks for the bent plate that bolts to the side of the box, which is rediculous, so I'm going to grind the plate flat and then I found bronze bushings that I can put in the holes if I drill the holes out slightly, that way I can just replace the bushing as it wears out. Still not sure what I'm going to do about the needles, but we just got a ton of rain on my already raked hay anyways  My twine fingers do have a lot of slop in them as well, both around where they pivot and both ends of the rod that connect them to the shaft that pivots, but I did adjust them per manual yesterday, thats one of the first things I did. I will check where the needles fasten as well for signs of it being bent. Thanks for all the replies so far. A couple other things I noticed: 1. After I trip the knotters, before the needles even start moving, the twine fingers sweep over, just like they do later when it is trying to form a knot. Are they supposed to rotate over twice for every time the knotters trip? 2. Before the needles start coming up, they actually go down a little bit first (if I remember right maybe almost an inch, then start to come up). I don't remember my last square baler doing that?? Jeremy uploads/8932/20150706_104942.jpg" rel="nofollow - uploads/8932/20150706_104942.jpg ------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 6:24pm
| I learned to tie a knot that will pass through a baler. Start out like you would tie a square knot. Instead of making the second loop, fray the ends of both pieces and insert one about 1", into the other end. Leave the knot loose, and roll the merged piece of twine between your fingers, till it is round, and the fibers are intermingled. Hold on to the merged area, while pulling the knot tight. Often times the string will break, before the knot, and it will pass through the knotter... |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 7:49pm
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No they should not rub like that. Something is defiantly not in alignment. If you have not done it yet you will be able to see better with the hay chamber empty of hay. As you trip the knotters turning the flywheel by hand an inch at a time and watch every moving part so you can see how the twine moves thru the knotter. Watch the needle arms to make sure they have not broke, bent or a bearing is bad that would let them shift. Something could have broke or bent causing the previous owner to replace the needles and they didn't figure it out. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 9:45pm
I'm having trouble understanding what you are describing. Some of the parts of a knotter are: 1) The needles. 2) The bill hook. This is the device that opens up grabs the two twines and closes on the twines, twists the twine into a loop, then gets has the twine pulled off after it is cut. 3) Twine disks. Is this what you are referring to as the twine holder? This should turn 1/4 turn with every knot. If this is turning twice it may be that the disks are not properly parked after the knot is finished. There are 4 notches in the twine disks. Are they positioned where they belong, according to the manual? Look at the large disks on top of the knotter. Are the gears to the bill hook and twine disks still engaged somewhere near the edge? I mean at the last tooth of the edge or up off the gear rack. If not your "holder" will move twice. It is not supposed to. You need to retime this. One more time. Check your timing. There should be a timing mark at the main drive sprocket. Compare it to what's in the manual. Check the position of your twine disks and bill hooks after the sprocket is timed. You also need to look at your needle position problem. Something is probably bent. Grind away, but that probably won't fix the problem. Grind when you shouldn't and you may end up (trying to) buy a new set of needles. If the bar the needles are attached to is bent, see if it can be straightened or see if you can find one in some implement salvage yard. |
Posted By: Steve Zidlicky
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 10:01pm
| if someone ran a "log" thru it and busted the needles, then you need to be looking real close at the possibility of the needle yoke being bent. as I said earlier, you cannot cut a lot of corners fixing the tying stuff on a square baler. the only thing worse than no baler is one that will not work when you get to the field. rotate the flywheel until the needles are completely in full cycle against the knotter frames then stop and re-adjust the needles first then proceed with the other problems. I use a tapered oak shim between the back of flywheel and baler framework to hold the flywheel solid while doing any work like you are doing. although it sounds as if you have other worn parts, it is not likely that anything else got damaged when the needles were broken other than a bent/sprung bail. If you need used parts, Cooks at Clinton has usually some used parts somewhat reasonable. take your own tools and the price will be better and you get to pick which machine has the best parts. most of the knotter stuff on a 273,275,276 will fit except the rod that hooks the knotter shaft to the yoke if I remember correctly. you can google the new Holland baler parts and see which parts interchange. It sounds to me like you have bought a baler that has seen a lot of use but every part is replaceable. as the old saying goes, if you are going to play you have to pay always fits these things whether its 10 acres or 1000 acres. Do you have a local dealer that has a baler mechanic? sometimes a short in person visit can be very helpful too. do not try to fix too many issues at one time unless you know for sure it is a problem. start with getting the needles adjusted correctly or figure out why they will not. study the yoke carefully but there is quite a bit adjustment on the needles. not trying to step too hard on your toes but you need to clean off the residue so you can see better what is happening and grease the thing. I always try to grease the baler every 5-700 bales and put it to bed in the shed every nite. water/moisture is not your friend where you are working. If you have several rusty, bent/broken parts a good used assembly might be your best bet. |
Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 10:53pm
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It sounds like you do not have the book,YOU NEED THE BOOK. If things have been bent good luck because luck is all that will get it all lined up again. Had a friend get stuck in a mud bottom creek and yoke or whole bale chamber bent. He spend days heating and hammering,in the end he traded it for a new baler. If the needles are the right ones,which are the only ones that will work. The bolts should be longer than they than just being enough.You loosen one and tighten the other to rock them up or down on the yoke so the rubbing stops.The wholes should give you side to side movement as well as part of the rubbing is on the side it looks like. All the guides need to smooth as well,some times you can turn them so all rubbing is in a new area. I am not sure where you were putting bushing but probably not necessary.If your are going to bale that much hay start with a less used up baler. Have a cousin who custom bales a lot of hay.When the bill hooks and other wear parts get bad he would buy a whole new knotter and replace everything.They generally don't need to be adjusted much,but this one was making as many bad bales as the warn one. He adjusted on it several days and gave up.He took it back to the dealer ,at which point they confessed they had sold it to others and had there knotter repairman try to adjust it and so far it had not worked for anyone. So sometimes new parts are not the answer ether. But you always need to start with the measurement from the book. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 11:13pm
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Do not attempt this at home unless you have The Book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWRhB9fVyek" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWRhB9fVyek |
Posted By: Steve Zidlicky
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2015 at 9:39am
| this is a long post but you need to understand some things. Ray and Doug have both given you some good advice also. I might add, unless you really understand how everything works and know the proper names for each part do not start just randomly taking your knotter apart. you will also get the things so out of time that it will take good savy to make everything work. sort of like a clock. as already noted, you HAVE to have the book or else you will not have any success since all the adjustment figures(measurements) are listed. You have to have more info than the utube video. did you notice the rust in the video and the rusty shaft that was removed? remember rusty knotters and moisture are not your friend and a grease gun and at least a good cover in addition to the metal shield should be used once you get this thing working. what will cause you to pull your hair out is the fact that they are so simple yet so particular to get adjusted just right. If you are going to use the baler a lot, bite the bullet and buy new or good used not worn out parts.figure it this way, 200 bales @ 4.00 will buy several parts. it will be cheaper in the long run. It appears the guy in the video has had some experience with knotters before although it does not really show. do not just start taking everything apart like he did without some prior knowledge or good instructions with pictures. before you back up on buying good parts ask yourself what is worth more= good hay put up right because the baler worked or less quality hay because of money saved not buying parts and even maybe hiring someone who knows knotters to help get it working. a good knotter man is hard to come by and worth having around. you can do a lot of fixin in a couple of hours with good parts and knowledge. not knockin your abilities,I am trying to be a helpful cheerleader and I am the world's worst at wanting to do it all myself but sometimes quality on hands help is worth it. If I understood you correctly, you made some mention of bent or broken shafts/pins? if that is the case, you have some real issues to deal with and I would be looking for a good used knotter assembly and have someone go with you to inspect the condition of the parts so you do not buy someone elses trouble. there are several timing of parts on the baler all which must be right to work together with the knotter too. what ever you do. DO NOT power it up with a tractor to test it out without doing it by hand more than once or you can ruin parts in a hurry. once you get it to tie, you will need to remove the know off of the bill hooks by cutting it and pulling it off with a long pair of needle nose pliers or else the next time you try to tie tie knot will be in the way. I still suspect the yoke is sprung from running foreign object in chamber and busting needles and the rest of the problems were a result of lack of maintance and general worn parts. above all remember a knotter is like a woman, treat them well and they will treat you well. and if momma isn't happy no one is happy. good luck |
Posted By: powerwagon78
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2015 at 11:53am
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Guys, I have the book (if by the book you mean service manual), trust me lol. Last night I fixed the grooves in the twine tensioner, and adjusted the needles more (I misunderstand how to adjust them before, but a phone call from a member helped me immensely). I ran it through by hand, and she tied two knots just fine!! I'm thinking I wasn't keeping the twine tight enough before because of the grooves in the metal piece. One needle is adjusted as far as it will go, and it still rubs a little but it ain't near as bad as it was, nothing is really hanging up bad now, it actually spins over easy by hand. One question I did have though is I noticed that my drive chain seems kind of loose, but the book doesn't say how much movement is acceptable. in the middle of the chain I can touch the two sides of the chain together. The tensioner pulley just slides up and down in a slotted hole, and it's up as far as it will go. The previous owner claimed he put a new chain on it, I wonder if he got one that is a couple links too long or something?? If any of you have one of these, can you see how much slop you have in your chain? So far it's not a problem, but it does seem awful loose when you watch it running on the tractor.... Jeremy
------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2015 at 1:03pm
| If it's a new chain you can take links or half links out. Find the link with the cotter key or spring clip on it and remove one link there. Check the tightness. Just don't have it so tight that it feels "stretched." You may need to buy a half link. No big deal. Remember to keep it time. |
Posted By: Gordy
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2015 at 1:26pm
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I would not try to run it with the chain as loose as you say it is it can easily get out of time and cause serious damage should be tight enough so it will only move up and down about one inch in the middle of chain manual does say to keep chains tight at all times. |
Posted By: rw
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2015 at 4:41pm
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If you have not already, put a new chain on. It is a timing chain as much as a drive chain. A chain that long with worn bushing in the links won't be helpful. The knotter wants to run without the change in speed you are bound to get if the chain is whipping around. Make sure the parts are all there for the hay dogs and that they are moving freely. sometimes hay expanding in the chamber can pull twine out of place causing a miss. Ours got worn a bit in a few places and would fail to tie or wreck the knot on 3 to 6 out of 100. Had the dealer go through it and they put some parts in knotters, I think it was the twine holders as the main culprit. Maybe one ot two in 1000 now. talk about a time saver not having to retie 15 or 20 bales on a 500 bale day. It can be made to work right you just have to get find the problem(s) |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2015 at 5:37pm
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Hand tying is easier if you keep a few strings prepared in the tool box or a bucket. Measure enough twine to be about a foot longer than the distance it will pass around the bale. Tie a loop (bowline knot is best) in one end.To tie a bale wrap the twine around the bale and pass the untied end through the loop. Then you can slide the free end using the loop as a pulley and get nearly twice the tension in the twine as you can pull. Pinch the loop to hold when its tight enough and tie the free end to itself. Gerald J. |
Posted By: powerwagon78
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2015 at 11:37am
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I adjusted the chain on the baler, and it ties knots fine when I run it by hand, but when I put it on the tractor it won't tie again. I don't understand why the hell it won't tie when its running on the tractor, but it ties fine when I run it through by hand. I wish I could just get one damn thing to go right in this haying process, maybe it's a sign that I ain't meant to hay or something LOL Jeremy ------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2015 at 11:45am
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Things happen faster when the tractor is driving it. Are the needles laying the twine into the notch in the twine disks? Are the twines laying side by side where the bill hook can grab them both? Are the knives sharp? Do they barely rub the billhooks, wiping the knot from the hook. Timing becomes much more critical when things speed up. |
Posted By: powerwagon78
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2015 at 10:15am
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It looks to me like everything is working like it should. I even tried slowing down the RPMs on the tractor, thinking maybe everything was running too fast. No luck. It's driving me crazy though....thanks again everyone for the help.
------------- Allis Chalmers WD45 NF Hesston PT10 Hay Mower New Holland 269 Square Baler Semper Fi USMC 2001-2005 OIF I VET |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2015 at 10:49am
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Your timing is off. That fact that you mentioned that your twine disks move twice in a knotting cycle tells me this. I suspect that the resting/starting position of your knotter is wrong. Look here and go to knotter troubleshooting: http://www.boonetractor.com/subpages/parts/squarebalerperformance.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.boonetractor.com/subpages/parts/squarebalerperformance.pdf Is your knotter brake working correctly? |
Posted By: Pete from IL
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2015 at 4:13pm
| The twine fingers should not move twice. There is a definite timing problem. Most baler manuals have the systematic adjustment of the knotter. Follow that in order stated and your baler should tie. If I was closer I would come and look at it for free. Do you have a local baler mechanic that can look at it? |