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Thad in AR. 
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 Topic: Welding wire for body panels and floor pans
Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 6:23am |
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I’m going to make a decision today weather try to save the cab on my truck project or find another.
I have a Millermatic Vintage which is a remake of the Millermatic 200
I currently have 035 rollers and run 25/75 argon mix.
Is there any benefit of swapping to smaller wire? Is there any benefit to switching shielding gas? Is there any benefit to trying flux core?
Just wanting the best welds for this project.
Gonna be quite a bit of sheet metal welding.
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DMiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 6:38am |
I have a Millermatic 210, I dropped to .023 wire to weld my panels, welder DID NOT LIKE the Low requirement heat or speeds. Mine prefers .035 wire and higher heat/speeds. If had it to do over would buy a Cheap Wire welder and flux core wire at HF or NT or even the local Farm and Home store then ship it cheap or store away after complete job. Smaller welders, inverter welders operate far better at lower power than the commercial units we have.
Edited by DMiller - 15 Dec 2024 at 6:42am
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 6:41am |
'best' welds are made by the man NOT the machine or materials. If you're real comfortable(aka skilled ) using .035 and 'autogas(75/25)' use them ! Using something new requires a learning curve.
Last truck I did I used Oxy/Act and brazing rods . Built a 'cab turner' to spin it over made a HUGE difference !
if you into a lot of repair, consider a 'southern ' cab ! I just got a box from Texas for my '97 F150...you could eat off the underside of the bed !!! Changing cabs isn't too hard IF same year. Sadly '97 is a 'one year pony'.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 6:59am |
 DMiller wrote:
I have a Millermatic 210, I dropped to .023 wire to weld my panels, welder DID NOT LIKE the Low requirement heat or speeds. Mine prefers .035 wire and higher heat/speeds.If had it to do over would buy a Cheap Wire welder and flux core wire at HF or NT or even the local Farm and Home store then ship it cheap or store away after complete job. Smaller welders, inverter welders operate far better at lower power than the commercial units we have.
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Thank you. Was hoping you would see this and respond. I’ve tried the 035 on thin stuff before and was also dissatisfied. I’m going to give thought to a small 120 flux only mig for this and future projects. I did use mine to take 2 pair of WC fenders and make one set. Worked ok but that was well over twice the thickness these will be.
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im4racin
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 7:31am |
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If you try to lay a bead it will warp. You need to spot weld across the entire seam. Don't start on one end and work to the other but randomly across it until it's all filled in.
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DMiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 7:46am |
im4racin, that is how I installed the rockers and cab corners on my project 250. Even for Spot Welds using wire, move around panel so heat does not affect a specific area too long.
Ended up stitch welding the corners at the new line, Hammer as completed the work to flatten as best I could and minor amounts of filler to smooth off.
Edited by DMiller - 15 Dec 2024 at 7:47am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 8:15am |
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Similar experience to the guys above.. 25 years ago the son bought an old truck. I bought a 120v Lincoln wire feed welder with .023 wire . We got a bottle of CO2 gas instead of the flux core.. He replaced floor panels and inner fenders ( 15 years old) with little experience. The small welders you can turn WAY DOWN and weld 18 gauge as needed.. You can crank it up and weldl 3/16 " as needed... Like mentioned, weld and inch, skip 4 inches and weld another inch... come back and fill in another inch after a couple minutes... works pretty good. .... Never did like the FLUX core, you have to clean up more afterward.... but it does a decent job.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 8:36am |
Hey Thad,,,All great advice given and like Jay mentions it will be a sort of learning trip but certainly will give you many benefits,,,  I recently bought one of the new Inverter arc welders that after some practice,,I wish that method had been available years ago and the whole thing only weighs about 10 Lbs and you can adjust the power from 20 amps for those body and fender panels up to 200 for the thicker stuff. The beauty of it's capabilities is they send you an adapter to use it on 120 VAC and you cut down on rod size accordingly. The primary voltage is 220 VAC and I had a chunk of wire heavy enough to make an "Extension cord" to use when on 220,,,but I'll wager ole Tim has something you can use,,, The "thin stuff" does require stitch welding to keep from warping the panel, then go back and grind the gorillas down and a little Bondo and you be golden. You are most welcome to use it if you want to try it out as I'm going to take it up there instead of my HEAVY Lincoln mig.
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plummerscarin
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 8:42am |
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First thing I'd try is put the .023 wire in and work with to see if you can make decent welds. Sheet metal requires a series of spot welds. If allowed, look in to a 120V welder. I bought a Hobart that is shield gas or flux core capable. I used it to patch an auger and was very pleased with it. The gas you have should work very well with it. Some time ago I had a 120V flux core welder. Didn't like it much. Loaned it to someone and never saw it again. Don't miss it
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 9:28am |
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Might be time to also look at TIG welding thin metal , and Argon shield gas .
Argon/CO2 will work better than straight CO2 also on thin metal - less spatter .
Stitch or Pulse weld rather than full circuit weld to control heat .
My water cooled TIG gun worked great until cooling pump quit .
TIG is just like gas welding but with controlled heat , little on warping as heat is concentrated at Tungsten tip and gas from cone keeps the weld clean
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 9:57am |
steve(ill) wrote:
.... Never did like the FLUX core, you have to clean up more afterward.... but it does a decent job. |
It all depends on the conditions in which you're working. Obviously in an ideal world we've all got a beautiful warm, clean and bright shop but if you're outdoors/shed has wind blowing through the flux core can be your best friend.
Really, really liking the cheap (£80) inverter unit the son bought recently. Been using that on the B project a fair bit & it's a revelation compared to my old transformer relic, laid down some of the nicest welds I've done in a good while with that thing. Worst thing was the learning curve of using "synergic" feed/amps on a simple dial scale when I've been used to the cheap old "10%/60% duty" power options & setting feed speed/adjusting my distance and travel to "make the best" of the two power levels for the last 20 years of odd jobs.
The inverter just seems to create a smoother arc too. Honestly wondering where this thing has been all my life haha  Definitely worth considering if you're planning a lot of thin gauge work like truck bodies and as mentioned the smaller welders can manage some heavier stuff too, this one didn't struggle at all with 1/4" plate.
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DMiller
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Posted: 15 Dec 2024 at 11:49am |
On that welder with .035 rolls in it, Cannot feed .023 or .024 wire in those, will have to replace the rolls and set the machine for the new wire, I did just that. Next up Gun and Liner are DIFFERENT for .023 or .024, tips are different, and Yes I changed those, everything felt Odd using. Back Flashes are evil and happened Often on the .023, as welding with hair and any disruption even to a fan blowing air will screw with that.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 7:13am |
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Neighbor has a Chicago electric 125 set up for 030.
I’d have to find rollers and a liner/ gun and tips to run 023 as Dave says.
He’s asking a hunnert but says he’ll take a decent offer.
I could actually use it at work from time to time.
I’ve been reading the mods to make it work decent.
Just not sure where to get 023 rollers, tips and liner?
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desertjoe
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 7:42am |
That right there is the main issue I have with HF tools,,,they just do not stock any spare parts and prolly don't make em. The MGR at HF listened to my 23 minute ranting about the missing tool for my paint gun and said HF had been getting lots of complaints about spare parts for the tools they sell,,,?? You ought to look into one of the new Inverter arc welders. It is a great all around welder and will operate on either 120 or 220 VAC and the whole thing don't weigh more that a fully loaded lunch pail,,,,  I'm not sure what the max amps you could run on 120 VAC at work but figure it would do the job on the thin metal panels of TRK panels,,?
Edited by desertjoe - 16 Dec 2024 at 7:42am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 8:10am |
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wire feed will run on 120v.... if your going to STICK WELD, you can do SOME work with a 3/32 rod... but smaller will be better as its hard to get over 70 amps out of a 120v welder.... remember most 120 v lines will NOT be over 20 amps INPUT.
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Dec 2024 at 8:11am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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tadams(OH)
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 1:59pm |
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About time for ole Desertjoe to make a trip up your way and do it for you when hes not busy with his woman friend.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 2:19pm |
tadams(OH) wrote:
About time for ole Desertjoe to make a trip up your way and do it for you when hes not busy with his woman friend. |
Yes sir I believe that would work. I’d even buy his lunch if I remember my wallet.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 3:50pm |
Thad in AR. wrote:
tadams(OH) wrote:
About time for ole Desertjoe to make a trip up your way and do it for you when hes not busy with his woman friend. |
Yes sir I believe that would work.
I’d even buy his lunch if I remember my wallet. |
UMMmmm,,,I started carrying some blank IOU's ,,,,and even gots a pen for you to use,,,, Well,,Pardner,,,since it was YOU that did introduce me to her,,,,,I be more than glad to spring for some groceries at the world Famous "Ozark Cafe",, especially their Special on Thursdays,,,!!
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HudCo
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Posted: 16 Dec 2024 at 9:22pm |
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i mostly use the gold gas 75 25 solid .023 or 30 on the thinner stuff i prefeere .023 biggest hing is a good fitt clean and no breeze or wind , save the flux core for welding out side when their is a breeze or spatter is not crittlal . i like useing the duel shield in .045 bigger plate and shapes
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DMiller
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Posted: 17 Dec 2024 at 2:33am |
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Simple trial for general welder, use existing welder and test weld scraps of scrap, try someone elses welder different wire sizes and types of welder. None of the later tin welding accepts rod use as too thin and warps far too easy.
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 18 Dec 2024 at 4:36am |
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After a good cleaning and inspection, I think this ole cab is just too far gone.
Rust goes beyond the floor pans up on th the firewall and over in to the kick panels.
Starting to rust where the floor pan meets the back of the cab as well.
I made an offer on a much nicer donor yesterday.
We’ll see where it goes.
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scott
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Posted: 18 Dec 2024 at 9:04am |
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To do a good weld with .032 I need an auto darken helmet. I would have zaps and sparks and weld dots in the wrong spot, lol. Then, I learned to fill gaps with the arc welder, you dont want that you want both surfaces to be welded to be touching each other, no gap. After you zap it the panels will try to separate so a tap in front of the weld will push the top layer back down to the bottom layer.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 19 Dec 2024 at 9:24pm |
Sheet metal welding is best done with a spot welder, or a TIG. You CAN PULSE MIG it with fair results, but you'll need to hammer and dolly the spots afterwards.
Running lower than 0.035" wire WILL require making significant adjustments to a fabrication-class MIG. You CAN run 75/25 with fine wire, you WILL need nozzle, feed rollers, and a proper liner... you'll find that if you don't, you'll have unstable current flow, lots of wire stuffing mixed with very fast burn-back, plugged up nozzles, bird's nest in the feeder rollers, and incredible aggrivation.
A smaller machine, especially an inverter, will be easier for someone who is less experienced with sheet metal, because the transformer-based machine will be below it's typical slope inductance's operating window.
Small wire and low current settings DO respond well to straight CO2.
DON'T tig with Argon/CO2 mix!!! CO2, at electrode temperatures, becomes a very aggressive attacker of all things Tungsten. TIG is either Argon or Helium, generally nothing else.
I use one of several spot welders... for body repairs, you NEED either a fullly portable self-contained unit, or you need a spot-welding electrode set that can reach in and make the fusion, then back out.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 19 Dec 2024 at 9:35pm |
My bodyman, uses .035, 75/25 gas and doesn't have ANY problems(well aside from having an internal TAZER ). The 'trick' is to tack both ends, then the middle, wait a bit,then the middle of the middle AND allowing the welds to cool down BEFORE adding the next ones. YES, it does take time BUT next to ZERO warping. He replaces all rusty metal, does a car/truck a week and a gallon can of 'bondo' lasts about 2 YEARS, as he replace bad steel with GOOD steel.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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desertjoe
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Posted: 19 Dec 2024 at 9:52pm |
Well, Jay,, that is correct as the size of the wire does not necessarily prohibit the use of .035 wire on thinner panels. You just have to adjust wire speed and amp settings and make those welds with the .035 same as .023. The secret to doing that as DMiller proved is to limit succesive welds and proceed with skip "TACKS" in lieu of "welds". Very time consuming but will not warp the metal this way.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 20 Dec 2024 at 4:39am |
Coke-in-MN wrote:
Might be time to also look at TIG welding thin metal , and Argon shield gas .
Argon/CO2 will work better than straight CO2 also on thin metal - less spatter .
Stitch or Pulse weld rather than full circuit weld to control heat .
My water cooled TIG gun worked great until cooling pump quit .
TIG is just like gas welding but with controlled heat , little on warping as heat is concentrated at Tungsten tip and gas from cone keeps the weld clean |
Hey Coke,,,I have always been interested in TIG welding as in Shop Class in HS,, I really excelled at using the Oxy/acy torch in class with good old baling wire,,,,!! The Shop Teacher was a true affectionado of teaching us on that type of welding,,,maybe cause the school system did not have enough money for too many welding rods,,,,, We had to master that baling wire process before we could draw weld rods from his locked box,,,, but I still liked the baling wire better,,!! A properly set up Mig would still be my first choice as you can make consecutive "tacks" every 6-8" to keep from warping the thin material.
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Gary
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Posted: Yesterday at 8:06am |
Here is a link to a YouTube Video of a skilled Body Repairman repairing a rusted section of a car Fender. It is amazing the quality of repair that he achieves. Cuts out the rusty section, fabricates a new piece, mig welds it in place so that no bondo is required on the finished product. The key to his mig welding is repeated short bursts of tack welding along with compressed air cooling and hammering. His method may take a little longer, but the results are certainly worth it. G The actual welding starts just after the 25 min. mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmbM8E-APdQ
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