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tbran 
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Location: Paris Tn
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 Topic: 616 engine swap
Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 6:46pm |
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I am sure it has been discussed, but what would be the best repower for a 616 with the OEM cckb onan...
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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AC720Man
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Joined: 10 Oct 2016
Location: Shenandoah, Va
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Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 8:43pm |
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Most guys use 20 hp Honda’s. What’s wrong with your cckb?
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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tbran
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Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 10:09pm |
bought it non running, low compression - non charging - erratic firing - sounds a tad noisy inside..
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Steve in NJ
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Location: Andover, NJ
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Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 12:23am |
Sounds like a normal purchase to me.... LOL! I see those repower kits with either Honda's like Rob said or the B/S Vangard engines. The CCKB Onan's run good. It's just a shame they're so darn expensive to rebuild. They can get pretty hot under the collar to... Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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orangeman
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Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 7:37am |
Tbran:
A few things to share:
The Onan CCKA engine was the original block used in the 616. The CCKB came along with the 620 and 720 tractors. Who knows maybe someone yanked the CCKA and replaced it with the CCKB.
Having several of these they can suffer from the following:
-excessive heat build up under the hood. -typical starter and electrical problems that come to the surface after nearly 50 years of service. -stator and starter normally problematic if no work since new. -diaphragm fuel pump normally replaced with small displacement fuel pump. -rear PTO normally needs attention. -Onan parts available through Cummins. -Have heard, but no factual experience that the Briggs is a good replacement. Have seen replacement Honda's in 616's/620's and 720's that caught fire and burnt up - not a pretty sight.
HTH's ~ Orangeman
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AC720Man
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Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 3:16pm |
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With 1,200 hours on one 720 and less than 700 on the other 720 I wonder what I will do when I come to that decision to do. My first thought is as long as I can get the parts and able to do a rebuild I will most likely do that. A electronic ignition will definitely be a upgrade that I will do. Electric fuel pump also on the other 720 as I have already done it on one 720. The Onan has lasted for 45 years so that’s pretty good in my book. Guess I will get prices and weigh out my options.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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orangeman
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Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 6:45pm |
AC 720 man - I am planning to ditch the Stator and move to a Delco or Nippondenso alternator to improve serviceability. Also will be adding a fan to the front shroud. I need to move the fuel pump on mine as the PO mounted it on the frame below the muffler and yes, it vapor locks during the summer. Bad location.
~Orangeman
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HudCo
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Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 6:02pm |
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we done 23hp briggs vanguards for two customers that has been a few years ago close to 10 anyways . the one we get once a year to service for them we have never had to touch the engine thats the way i will go when i run out of spare parts for my 616 . it does help that we are a briggs and honda dealer. i think i would pick the briggs over the honda, more stub shaft and muffler options and i know the briggs fits without messing up the hood
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AC720Man
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Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 8:28pm |
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That’s good info Mike, always good to hear from someone that has done a swap. I’m sure it makes perfect sense to do the swap. Newer technology and reliability. What Briggs do you use?
As far as the fuel pump, I got a kit from Steve and mounted it behind the fuel tank onto the tower. Far away from heat.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Dusty MI
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Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 8:48am |
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Several years ago I bought a 720 with loader that had a new B & S engine installed in it. It has worked very well for me.
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917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express"
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AC720Man
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Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 12:33pm |
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Dusty do you have a picture of it with the hood closed? Curious to see how it looks
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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HudCo
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Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 4:36pm |
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it just runs the little round black plastic mikuni vacuum fuel pump they are really quite reliable and new they only cost 20 $
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Bird76Mojo
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Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 6:45pm |
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I have no idea why anyone would rebuild their CCKB, with the cost of Cummins/Onan parts. I got quoted $2500-$2800 once through an official Cummins/Onan rebuilder.
It just doesn't make sense to do, especially since there have been NOS shortblocks on Ebay for years now, at beyond reasonable prices. I bought two of them when they were priced at $450 each. They've since raised the price a good bit..
I also can't understand anyone doing a modern engine swap. They don't have anywhere near the torque of the original Onan. Not even close. Besides that, all of them have plastic parts in the valvetrain. Modern small engines are garbage until you get in to the 30+ hp range.
Edited by Bird76Mojo - 04 Jan 2022 at 6:47pm
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AC720Man
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Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 8:21pm |
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If you don’t rebuild or re power a 720, are you going to junk or part out a great machine? I haven’t seen a NOS short block for sale recently. I would buy one if I did to have on hand.
Edited by AC720Man - 06 Jan 2022 at 8:24pm
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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mnoonan-NEWI
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Posted: 07 Jan 2022 at 2:39pm |
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AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8
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fxsr_3
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Posted: 07 Jan 2022 at 7:26pm |
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Just curious, any idea what would have caused the replacement Honda to burn up in these tractors?
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mnoonan-NEWI
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Posted: 07 Jan 2022 at 10:23pm |
 fxsr_3 wrote:
Just curious, any idea what would have caused the replacement Honda to burn up in these tractors? |
I bought one 720 with a Honda but sold it a short time later. It seemed to run ok but I thought it ran very hot. I really don't know what would cause it to burn up.
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AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8
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Bird76Mojo
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Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 10:07am |
AC720Man wrote:
If you don’t rebuild or re power a 720, are you going to junk or part out a great machine? I haven’t seen a NOS short block for sale recently. I would buy one if I did to have on hand. |
You're not looking hard enough then. I bought them on Ebay back when they were $450 each. I stocked up and should have enough to last my lifetime. I also posted a link here back when he first listed them for sale. The seller had dozens of them still in the original boxes.
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AC720Man
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Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 10:25am |
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Disappointed I didn’t see that or give a thought to buy 1 or 2 at that price. Probably because I haven’t had any issues I didn’t give it a thought about a short block to have on hand. Hind sight is 2020...another missed opportunity on my part.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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Bird76Mojo
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Posted: 08 Jan 2022 at 8:23pm |
AC720Man wrote:
Disappointed I didn’t see that or give a thought to buy 1 or 2 at that price. Probably because I haven’t had any issues I didn’t give it a thought about a short block to have on hand. Hind sight is 2020...another missed opportunity on my part. |
They're still on Ebay for a fraction of the price of a rebuild. Scroll up and you'll see the post by another member.
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AC720Man
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Posted: 09 Jan 2022 at 10:42am |
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Looks good but has anyone installed one? Is it a Onan short block or reproduction? Curious before I order one if anyone has one running and how well they run. I agree it would be less expensive than doing a rebuild from Onan/Cummins.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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mnoonan-NEWI
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Posted: 09 Jan 2022 at 11:05am |
AC720Man wrote:
Looks good but has anyone installed one? Is it a Onan short block or reproduction? Curious before I order one if anyone has one running and how well they run. I agree it would be less expensive than doing a rebuild from Onan/Cummins. |
I have purchased one along with several 720 friends. I have not had time to get mine running yet. Brad Stieber has just got his running. You can see his post on Facebook on the FB group;
Allis Chalmers 616, 620, 720, Simplicity 4040, 4041, 9020, Wards Twin 20
This is a link to Brads post;
https://www.facebook.com/brad.stieber.7/videos/4757436831016190
You can message Brad Stieber through FB Messenger.
This is the one we have been purchasing;
Edited by mnoonan-NEWI - 09 Jan 2022 at 11:08am
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AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8
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Bird76Mojo
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Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 7:49pm |
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I wish I would've bought 4 of them while they were $450 each. They're not reproduction units. They're in some pretty old Onan boxes. Guy had to have run across a whole warehouse full. I know at one time he had hundreds of them in a two different configurations. One variety has a longer cam cap on the PTO side, which "shouldn't" interfere with anything on the 720/620/616 tractors.
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mnoonan-NEWI
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Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 8:15pm |
Bird76Mojo wrote:
I wish I would've bought 4 of them while they were $450 each. They're not reproduction units. They're in some pretty old Onan boxes. Guy had to have run across a whole warehouse full. I know at one time he had hundreds of them in a two different configurations. One variety has a longer cam cap on the PTO side, which "shouldn't" interfere with anything on the 720/620/616 tractors. |
The crankshaft is 1-1/2" dia. instead of 1-7/16". Need to bore out the clutch or grind crankshaft down.
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AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8
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AC720Man
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Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 9:28pm |
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Mike, did he remove the crank and have it turned down to 1 1/2” at a machine shop?
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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mnoonan-NEWI
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Posted: 11 Jan 2022 at 9:42am |
AC720Man wrote:
Mike, did he remove the crank and have it turned down to 1 1/2” at a machine shop? |
No, he left the crank at 1-1/2" OD and bored out the clutch to match. He did not take the crank out. He also had to re-bore the Crank and tap for the bolt that holds the clutch onto. The crank came bored, but not to the right size and was not tapped.
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AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8
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