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allis chalmers hd 16 dp buda 844 engine |
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hello
I am new to this Forum so hello to all . I have a hd16 dp dozer im a farmer ive owned the dozer for a long time is there any one that has a hd 16 dp or similar ? Mine has the buda 844 engine having a few issues with it just thought more minds are better than one . The buda 844 engine just came to a stop . I had not used dozer for a few years so started it up and it had a stuck plunger in pump so fixed that also flushed radiator and few other jobs fitted the tree pusher thought i was right to go . Backed through gateway and started to head of across paddock just basically a bit above idle all of sudden it started making a tappet noise looked at oil pressure still ok got of to listen to noise walked around the other side and the engine just seemed to lock up stop . I tried starter motor it would not turn . I was grumpy so i just left it until i finished my harvest . So now im trying to figure out what it could be i guess the question is with the buda 844 do they have common faults that i should look for before jumping in and pulling apart thanks
Edited by russell - 11 Feb 2024 at 1:48am |
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Eric B ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 889 |
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Welcome to the forum, I'm a little surprised no one has caught your post yet as I''m sure given a bit of time you will get some responses. I don't have one myself, would've only dreamt long in the past that I could've had on to use. If the input you're looking for is to do with the engine, you could put the '844 engine' as part of the topic, somehow that seems to snag good interest.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Eric
Thanks for the reply yes i will try with a little more information just thought it was the right way to start off chris
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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This almost sounds as if you have a defective oil pressure gauge and the engine was starved of oil. Does the engine have an adequate oil level/quantity in the oil pan? Was the oil level checked prior to starting the engine? With the engine being locked up, it was an oil pressure problem at one time would be my thought rational. If what I suspect it true, it will be a lot of money to get it running correctly again. Once and engine locks up it's usually something has come apart internally and those engines are getting tough to source parts for.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hello Codger
Thanks for reply yes had oil and was correct level , The oil pressure gauge seems to work starts at 0 moved up when engine started to around 40psi but yes could be faulty never thought of that one . I drained oil yesterday its black but still quite oily no water put a inspection camera up the sump plug near front of engine as you cant seem to get it in rear plug hole had a look. Bottom of sump is quite clean inside i can spot the first 4 conrods and mains with camera they look ok not overheated cannot see the last two . I took rocker covers off there is some condensation in the front cover valves and springs look ok . Got a pry bar in the timing mark spot and moved engine backwards then ford i was surprised as when this happened a few months ago the starter would not turn the engine . I have since removed the battery's from dozer hooked up jumpers to the starter and managed to get two full turns out of the engine it stops in three positions each rotation and had to click starter a few time to get past the tight spot remembering that starter was only on jumper leads probably not full power . So im a bit lost on what to do next dont want to start pulling apart if im wasting time for a engine that will be no good thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Did you notice any metal particles or chunks in the oil? Given it was black and no apparent contamination you could have a stuck valve(s) or something relatively minor from setting. I would see if you can bar the engine over 360 degrees and if so, suspect starter motor.
Need to ensure nothing has come apart internally is where I'm going but the "ticking" you mentioned is concern. If the engine is hitting a hard metallic "stop" as you rotate it by barring it has probably broken a connecting rod. I think I read you pulled rocker covers and if so are all engine valves closing as you rotate, or bar the engine around? Some of this still needs checked I know. Last resort is pull the oil pan and get a look at the crankshaft, and connecting rods looking for abnormalities.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
No chunks in oil or pan when i looked with camera had a good view of the bottom of sump.When i pulled rocker covers and rotated two turns with starter motor valves seemed to all work springs and push rods seem ok. I have no batterys in dozer so i just jumped the starter straight from a little truck and starter might not have had the power to work properly i spun engine 2 revolutions the starter would stop 3 times per revolution had two click it a few times to get it moving again like a tight spot or compression stroke. Yes im thinking of pulling of the belly plate then the sump its a big job for me and was trying to make sure im heading the right way if its spun a bearing i probable would give up on the job as it means engine out etc prob not worth the effort thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Booster cables fall off in capacity under very high loading such as jumping an engine without batteries installed. I would get a couple of charged 12V batteries installed and ensure the starter is not the problem with engine rotation. This needs ensured before moving onto the reason she quit running. It's possible the fuel system is problematic and if the engine was starving out on fuel, this could be interpreted as a "knock", or "tick" as described as the engine began to misfire till the remaining fuel was expended. I've seen a lot of plungers stick in the transfer pumps and even though the fuel tank if full, the engine stalls from running out of fuel. Let's get batteries installed and ensure the engine rotates before going much further. Borrowed batteries work well for a test rather than purchase for testing only. You're not going to hurt them.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
Thanks i think your right i will put a couple battery's back in and see what happens. There is no oil in the engine as i drained it out but i guess a couple of turns with the starter should not hurt to much i will have the stop lever in stop position and see what happens good thought thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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You won't hurt it if just windmilling the engine for a few seconds. Those engines spin fast with the starter so don't go over about five to 10 seconds maximum if cranking over good. Unless you have disposed of the drained oil I wouldn't be afraid to dump it back into the engine for this test either. How is the coolant level? We need to ensure there is no coolant leaking into the cylinders causing a hydralock condition also. Since you mentioned the valves all seemed to be actuating normally, I don't think this a problem but something to rule out. Do you have capacity to video and upload to youtube? Would be easier if I could actually see what you are working with and on, but not a necessity.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
The engine has coolant i left sump plug out to see if any coolant drips out the sump have not looked for a few days . I will get some battery's in it and see what happens if it turns ok for a few turns i will then put the oil back in and turn some more and see if i cant get the oil pressure up? It may not be today plenty to do on farm and weather very hot thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Fantastic!! Hydralocking on that old engine could be a major setback but seemingly we are past that. Keep posting your progress and I'll follow up if it's beneficial.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
Here is a pic of my dozer I put some batterys in today with mixed luck it turned over a bit then had to click on starter a few times to get it past tight spot it seems then it would turn some more then same again at one stage it turned like normal but only one revolution its hard to hear any noises might have herd a clink sound thats it really im grumpy with it there is a bit of oil or fuel stain under exhaust manifold cylinder 5 and 6 i have not noticed that before had the batterys in and jumper leads as well so plenty of juce cables got hot im lost i guess if you were just to look today you would say flat batterys or bad starter but with what happened earlier the tappet sound and stalling theres somthing not right i have a story to tell about today but not now i was so lucky thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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I smallerized the photo so I can see it complete without scrolling around: ![]() This is a copy of your verbiage: Hi Codger
Here is a pic of my dozer I put some batterys in today
with mixed luck it turned over a bit then had to click on starter a few
times to get it past tight spot it seems then it would turn some more
then same again at one stage it turned like normal but only one
revolution its hard to hear any noises might have herd a clink sound
thats it really im grumpy with it there is a bit of oil or fuel stain
under exhaust manifold cylinder 5 and 6 i have not noticed that before
had the batterys in and jumper leads as well so plenty of juce cables
got hot im lost i guess if you were just to look today you would say
flat batterys or bad starter but with what happened earlier the tappet
sound and stalling theres somthing not right i have a story to tell
about today but not now i was so lucky thanks Edited by Codger - 13 Feb 2024 at 7:08am |
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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By the sounds of your writing I cannot rule out the starter, or something in it's path. You could have a tooth or two knocked out of the flywheel ring gear or starter drive, the starter motor itself could be subject to needing repair etc. With the engine rolling over and not either locking up, or hitting a hard stop, I'm feeling the bottom end is probably fairly sound. I would remove the starter motor and have it a good look over along with any needed repairs. With a helper I would bar that engine around 360 degrees without the starter installed inspecting the ring gear as the engine is rotated. If tight spots are found in the rotation we need to drill down to their cause. I wouldn't be all that concerned at this point of the leak you noticed. Probably a slightly leaking gasket that seals up when the engine warms. However with the engine cranking over, the injection pump is still pushing fuel into the engine through the injectors, (if working) and this fuel is not being burnt so it remains liquid. It will find the easiest place to leak. At this writing I'm more concerned about getting the engine to roll around as should. Hopefully you have something rather simple as the root cause and it's not something catastrophic to the tractor. It's difficult to put a lot of $$$ into such an old machine but it if works it will still do a day's work just as good as a much newer one; albeit slower. I've seen such stupid crap put engines down over the years and I don't give up so easy. The dumbest one I seen was on a Ford pickup that the engine blew and locked up right after clutch replacement. Engine surely was locked up, but not because of the engine. Somebody didn't torque the flywheel retention fasteners and one backed out lodging between the flywheel ring gear, and the flywheel housing. Nothing wrong with the engine at all.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DiyDave ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 50620 |
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I hadda BB chevy grenade a starter one time, little piece of starter dentition got up in the flywheel, and would lock up the motor randomly as it bounced around the flywheel. Took starter back off, and a little piece of steel fell out, about a tooth and a half. lesson learned, if ya find a starter in pieces, make sure to assemble the pieces, and see if any are missing...
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger and DiyDave
Thanks for your reply's and the reseizing of the picture hope you liked the dozer . I really cant see it the starter motor as was working fine and the noise in the engine just before it came to a halt im unsure . I did joined the forum for help more minds are better im a bit stubborn . I will take the advice and remove the starter and have a look as advised i would be so happy if this was the problem and would feel a little silly but i will give it a go i am still thinking spun rod bearing . I do appreciate the help and thank you both i will report back when i get the starter sorted cheers
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Hi Russell Yes, I like the dozer and want to see you return it to service. I have an 11-B series and partial to the brand and engineering that built it. You described a "tapping" in the engine where a rod knocking is much louder. However, that being said, your interpretation may differ from mine. Usually a rod knocking is accompanied by a misfiring engine prior to letting go. If you have a spun rod bearing you quite possibly would have seen metallic "glitter" in the drain oil. Coolant in the oil will commonly cause a bearing to "turn" or shift in it's mounting. This is why I asked about coolant level. With carrying 40psi oil pressure at a low idle and possibly spinning a rod bearing, the engine would have had to have been tired, and/or very high hours yet the lubrication system was doing it's job. I think it prudent to drop the belly pans and oil sump to get a look internally but attempting to rule out anything ancillary prior to doing that.
Edited by Codger - 13 Feb 2024 at 7:42pm |
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Ed (Ont) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Nov 2009 Location: New Lowell, Ont Points: 1224 |
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Nice old dozer. Hopefully you find something simple.
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 77986 |
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other possibilities are the hydraulic pump / drive failed and its locking up on rotation... or motor dropped a valve ?? ......... but you had the VALVE COVER OFF ? and checked each ?
Edited by steve(ill) - 13 Feb 2024 at 8:09pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
Thanks will investigate some more i hope its good news thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Steve has mentioned the hydraulic pump drive could be suspect and
this is very correct. The pump is driven at the front of the engine by
the crankshaft and there is a coupling there that could be the problem. I
would pull the grille and possibly pump from the front of the tractor
to see if this is the problem. Remove the front grille and the pump is
retained with bolts. I don't know if you can see the drive with the
grille, or cover removed or not as it may be under the radiator blocked
from easy view. Here is a rough photo: |
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger Steve DiyDave Edd
Thanks for reply wow you have me now i did not think of the drive in front of engine i maybe able to disconnect it and try again . I am more lost now going back to the start when all this happened the noise was like a tappet noise quite fast then the engine growled or grinded to a complete stop it happened just like that like you stall a car or truck trying to start of in top gear. My first thought was a dropped vale or seat or stuck valve . But can get the engine to do two revolutions not all in one go it gets a tight spot and have to click starter two three time to get it past tight spot then it turns some more .So really cant be a valve or seat as it would come to a complete dead end . With batterys in and jump cable i got it to turn once like it should only one revolution . every one is right in there idea's im sure of that . So do you think the starter would make a ticking noise in the middle of the engine if faulty? And do you think the front pump or coupling would make a ticking noise in the engine ? I am not sure so as another thought a blown head gasket between cylinders? Or what i dread the most spun conrod bearing ? If its a spun conrod bearing has any one had a spun conrod bearing and been able to linish crank shaft in the engine good enough to get it going with out having to remove the engine and do a crank grind is this possible ? There is a guy here in au that wrecks these dozers he has another engine its a earlier buda 844 it only has the two valves per cylinder he says it would fit and it was running but he gives no warranty on the engine once your out the gate its yours and the price is 10000 dollars im not sure on that one as well so im a bit lost thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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This drive setup can do exactly what you describe. It's probably not seen grease in eons and first got tight, then very hot tightening more till it finally was tight enough to overcome the torque of the engine output since you were at low engine speed. That hub probably bolts to the front crankshaft balancer or pulley. I'd get it loose and it should turn easily by hand. If it is not really loose or the universal joint is bad/tight, you have probably isolated the fault. Regardless, get oil back in the engine with this drive disconnected and see if the engine starts and runs. With the hydraulic drive disconnected you will still be able to move the tractor as only the blade and ripper functions are affected by that pump. Since both are elevated, you can then move the tractor to a better place to work on it. All is assuming this pump, or drive is the problem. You keep supplying the symptoms and I think we'll keep supplying possible repair options.
Edited by Codger - 14 Feb 2024 at 5:36pm |
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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Eric B ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2012 Location: British Columbi Points: 889 |
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I personally doubt that you have con-rod seizing up. I've had that happen once in my machinery career of 44 years. Surprisingly enough I had a tinny sounding tappy noise at first which after a while went away. No knocking sound at all but after a bit the engine started labouring harder and harder but evenly, next thing one con-rod bearing just seized solid. If it were a con-rod in your case I don't think you would have one or two tight spots with the rest of the revolution turning easily. My machine, in previous ownership had had anti-freeze in the oil pan (cracked liner). This would have been what initiated the damage. In your case, you having owned the machine for a long time, no a/f in the pan, no other abuse such as overheating or fuel dilution into the pan, it's not very likely to suddenly have a con-rod failure especially with OK oil pressure.
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Currently- WD,WC,3WF's,2 D14's B. Previously- I 600,TL745,200,FL9,FR12,H3,816 LBH. Earth has no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal!
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger Eric
Once again thanks for your replies I will investigate some more like You mentioned with all the machinery that you have used its only happened once a spun conrod thats encouraging ill check the front drive and still have the suspect starter motor to check i have replaced the starter many years ago its not a fun job have to remove the oil filters and mount to the block and some of the heat exchanger to get it out its more than half days work just to remove from memory . As for the drive on hydraulic pump i will have to drop the blade take the bottom half of grill of i recon thats how you will get to it so maybe a few days until i get this all done thanks
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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I should probably back track a bit on the starter. I would get that front coupling disconnected, get oil back into the engine and see if it will readily crank right up. Most of my limited AC experience is with newer tractors than yours where the hydraulic pumps are engine flywheel driven and not crankshaft driven at the front. I had completely sidelined that important piece in the equation. With that hydraulic drive disconnected and if the engine still won't start, the next thing to do is "bar" the engine over. If the engine rotates through 360* but the starter still won't spin it, then something in the starting system is amiss. Let's get that hydraulic pump separated from the engine before going much further would be my suggestion.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger Eric
I will look into it might take a few days will let you know the outcome thanks
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russell ![]() Bronze Level ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 2024 Location: australia Points: 37 |
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Hi Codger
Well a few days gone buy i had a couple free hours so i looked at dozer again . I decided to drop belly plate to get a look at the front drive shaft blade is chained up to close to front grille . Belly plate was full of dirt etc very heavy once off i discovered at the back of sump there was a big round plate that could be removed .I had a quick look at front drive shaft the joints seem to be ok just visual cant really see how i am going to get to it without removing the grill . So i could not help myself i removed the round plate on sump which leads to the oil pickup screen i could not get my inspection camera in this spot at the start its kind of enclosed compartment in bottom of sump . removed the mesh from oil pickup there is quite a few metal pieces on the mesh flakes and there soft can bend with fingers hmm thats as far as i got i am hoping now i can get camera up there and look at the bottom of engine . cheers
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Codger ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2020 Location: Illinois Points: 1814 |
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Hi Russell, yes, those metallic pieces are reason for concern. I would pull the oil filters from the machine and get a good look at them along with the insides of the housings. That screen matter could be fresh, or could be quite aged, but oil filter analysis will tell you if the engine is destroying itself. If you drain the filter housings prior to removing them, catch this drain oil into a clean vessel such as a glass jar or tin can to get a good look.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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