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Why did Deutz kill the 8000 series? |
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1963D17
Bronze Level Joined: 05 Jun 2021 Location: Alvord, Iowa Points: 81 |
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Posted: 29 Mar 2024 at 10:43pm |
All European parts manual were defiantly subpar. New Holland had one of the easiest to read and simple parts catalogs out there. After Fiat bought New Holland the manuals got complicated. Look at a 1915 chopper catalog and then an FX chopper manual.
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NEVER green
Orange Level Access Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Location: MN. Points: 6538 |
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My friend pulls a Deutz, those head bolts are bizarre.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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Fred in Pa
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Hanover Pa. Points: 9106 |
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Allis killed Allis when they SOLD to DEUTZ
Deere I agree with you .I work For a Dealer From 1981 till 1996 . I have a Tractor Repair Business for over 20 years now and work on the good ol stuff and have never looked back . Edited by Fred in Pa - 29 Mar 2024 at 6:39am |
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He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
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jdeere562
Bronze Level Joined: 02 Oct 2023 Location: SW Iowa Points: 15 |
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I was an Allis mechanic at two different dealers, from 1975 until 1991.
It was a nightmare with Deutz. Allis had great service manuals. Deutz manuals sucked. Few words and a bunch of symbols. About like a car from the 1960's to that current crap that pops up on the dash today. Stop and read the owner's manual to see what they mean. Cab heaters run off diesel fuel, what a joke. Cylinder heads with stretch bolts were also a pain. In 1991 I moved on to Deere, and NOT as a mechanic either!
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bigal121892
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 743 |
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We've had a couple of them apart. On the four pinion differentials, the bolt that holds everything together, (70933256) will break, then a lot of bad things happen.
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8070nc
Silver Level Access Joined: 21 Mar 2019 Location: North Carolina Points: 404 |
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Just some thoughts on on the 7/8000 rear ends. With all the hours we have put on those tractors kwe never had one apart. Never seen one in a dealership apart. Back in the 1980s id go to the IH dealer for planter parts and the shop would be full of 10, 14, 15, 66 and 86 series with rear ends apart and scattered everywhere
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1984 80780
1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |
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NEVER green
Orange Level Access Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Location: MN. Points: 6538 |
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Very interesting. I have seen a White ring gear in a 180 hp tractor, they are huge.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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bigal121892
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 743 |
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According to our Allis dealer at the time, Deutz owned 20% of Steiger; Steiger was going to manufacture row crop tractors for Deutz-Allis, using a Deutz engine. CaseIH threw a monkey wrench into that plan, when they purchased the 80% of Steiger that Deutz didn't own. So, they went shopping for a someone to manufacture a tractor for them. According to our dealer, they went with White for two reasons; (1) Deutz engineers felt only the White rear end could hold up to the low end torque of the Deutz engine, and (2) White was offering them the best warranty.
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EPALLIS
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Illinois Points: 1111 |
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Robert Ratliff did the best he could with what he new at the time. Forming AGCO was a huge risk and a great undertaking. He wasn't perfect but he'll always be a savior in my mind. My AGCO dealer still carries and stocks WD tractor parts on the shelf. Eternally grateful that 70 year old tractor parts are still that accessible.
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gleaner1
Silver Level Joined: 17 Dec 2009 Points: 212 |
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Prior to the duetz buyout AC was planning or throwing the idea around moving tractor production out of west allis. The plant was dated and labour/union costs apparently were high.
Along with outsourcing engines. On a higher note when agco moved tractor production to independence out of coldwater, some of the former AC engineering employees gave the 9100 series (whites)a make over with the release of 9600 series. Have a look at one the AC influence clearly shows. To bad that all ended a few short years later. |
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ALLIS CHALMERS "The color is orange"
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Crazy Canuc
Bronze Level Joined: 27 Mar 2024 Location: Owen Sound Onta Points: 1 |
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Some of the information shared in this forum regarding the Deutz Allis deal is new to me, thanks for the info.
I did own a 180 Allis Chalmers for some years, my son wanted a 4250 Deere, we dealt it with that aquisition, I wish I had not made the decision to let the 180 go. I am currently looking to aquire an 8030. It is rumored that Deere was offered Fendt, prior to AGCO's aqusition
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AC720Man
Orange Level Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 4645 |
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Fendt tractors are becoming very popular near us. Their highway speed is a big seller as many farmers in the next county have farms 30 miles apart. Massey is popular also in that same area. Locally NH is probably the most popular next to JD. Our county still has plenty of AC’s still hard at work. Between my brothers and I we account for 14 of em lol.
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1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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bigal121892
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Location: Nebraska Points: 743 |
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AGCO did not own, or have the rights to the Allis Chalmers name. I think I read somewhere that Robert Ratliff made the statement, had he known how successfull AGCO would be, he would have bought the Allis Chalmers name, but at the time felt the money was better spent else where. As far as the orange goes, what they told us, and what the real reason is, I can only guess, all I know is they lied to us. The Fendt is an excellent tractor.
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1955CA
Silver Level Joined: 10 Sep 2018 Location: Ontario, Canada Points: 496 |
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What I don't get is the modern day AGCO. Why did they drop the Allis Chalmers name, or even the orange AGCO tractors that had a strong loyal following in North America, and instead are trying to ram only German Fendt's down our throats?
I gues Fendt is a good tractor? But why not promote the names they already own that North Americans grew up with like Allis and Massey Ferguson. Even the combines.....they would rather sell Fendt's over here than Gleaners.
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exSW
Orange Level Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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IF they'd had their next generation Powershift tested,tooled up and production ready as IH did with CIH merger it may have happened but the Duetz still didn't have US mfc facilities like Case did.
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Learning AC...slowly
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DougG
Orange Level Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 7946 |
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The comment tractors couldnt support West Allis is so true - if they only would have moved tractor/ combine production to its own/only facility as the Allis Chalmers Farm Equipment Company; sounds good in hindsite- but they were so far gone there was no resurection ,, sad , as they were a 2 Billion dollar company with record profits in 1979,,
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victoryallis
Orange Level Joined: 15 Apr 2010 Location: Ludington mi Points: 2859 |
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I’m married to one I know what you’re saying. |
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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760
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im4racin
Orange Level Joined: 12 Jun 2017 Location: Garrison ND Points: 843 |
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Have you ever tried to tell a German anything?
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victoryallis
Orange Level Joined: 15 Apr 2010 Location: Ludington mi Points: 2859 |
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Duetz could screw up a wet dream. How that ever generated enough money to buy Allis blows my mind.
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8030 and 8050MFWD, 7580, 3 6080's, 160, 7060, 175, heirloom D17, Deere 8760
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dr p
Orange Level Joined: 24 Feb 2019 Location: new york Points: 1016 |
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I will have to ask him next time i see him
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exSW
Orange Level Joined: 21 Jul 2017 Location: Pennsylvania Points: 914 |
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I think the production of the 8000 series was to interwoven with West Allis. No way they could support that huge facility with just tractor production.
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Learning AC...slowly
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injpumpEd
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Walnut IL Points: 4780 |
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I'd bet good money it was the 5050 platform they used, as it's a FIAT anyway. People tend to remember things different than they actually happen, or hear the story different than its told lol!
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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DrAllis
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 19563 |
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I find that D-17 resurrection claim kind of hard to believe. That chassis never had a truly independent PTO and sell that old PTO system around the world ???
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Tom59
Bronze Level Joined: 27 Feb 2021 Location: Lebanon Tenness Points: 149 |
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I would assume those tractors were sold in the Asia and Africa market, those models never made it to the U.S. ? I would like to see what those tractors looked like, |
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dr p
Orange Level Joined: 24 Feb 2019 Location: new york Points: 1016 |
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I don't quite remember the details but my kid brother is an engineer for case IH new holland. For one of their tractor lines 20 years ago they bought all the tool and die works for an Allis d-17. Used that for the chassis and dropped their own engines, hydraulic and electric into it. Made the whole thing in turkey. Was a financial success . Goodness knows what that was still doing around.
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Ray54
Orange Level Access Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Location: Paso Robles, Ca Points: 4369 |
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Patens are only good for so many years. I keep thinking 25 but that could of been "the good old days" and it is much shorter today. It has got so costly and time consuming to take such paten case to court, very seldom is it done. The Chinese copy just about anything and everything. Nephew is a completive shooter and builds sound suppressers for a large company. His boss allowed him to use the shop to build sites for completive shooters. The market was never going to large, but the Chinese made a copy and advertised it in the USA. But back to AC as reported here, one tiny bit of AC was still around in the electrical business. But the story of closing even that was one here in the last few years. So who would of spent any money buying old out dated patents. So if you wish to build a few hand made parts and selling them go for it.
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AC7060IL
Orange Level Joined: 19 Aug 2012 Location: central IL Points: 3208 |
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So are any of the Allis-Chalmers tractors currently residing within any legal intellectual ownership by a principle entity (patents, acknowledgments, etc)?
Reason I asked this question? Is there any legal ramifications against someone who might transfer a tractor’s actual measurements into a new casting mold & begin reproducing any/all parts? |
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CrestonM
Orange Level Joined: 08 Sep 2014 Location: Oklahoma Points: 8357 |
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Stories I’ve heard tend to align with what Kcgrain said. Deutz didn’t buy the tractor line and Allis was destroying tooling and blueprints. Seems they thought if they couldn’t keep the tractor line, no one could have it. There are old newspaper articles documenting exactly what was sold to Deutz but I don’t have them accessible right now.
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Kcgrain
Orange Level Joined: 24 Sep 2009 Location: Wisconsin Points: 767 |
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I dont think the plan ever was to ship the tooling to Germany. Deutz didnt buy the plant, and I dont think they bought the contents either, because my uncle helped crate up and ship the machines to Mexico and according to Norm Swinford, the molds and castings were destroyed and the blueprints etc were hauled to the landfill. Deutz had an agreement with Allis Chalmers to keep production at West Allis until the parts ran out, so they were only paying Allis Chalmers to build the tractors.
Not only that, but the 6-7-8000 series parts were sold off at a big auction, by Allis Chalmers, if Deutz had owned it, they would have had the auction. Edited by Kcgrain - 03 Apr 2023 at 9:59am |
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Fred in Pa
Orange Level Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Hanover Pa. Points: 9106 |
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Never Green ,they did ship their own tractors here .
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He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
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