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69gmcor70chevy 
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Location: Sask
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 Topic: HD16 Sprockets
Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 11:28am |
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I have tried searching but cannot seem to find this questioned answered.
I recently purchased a HD16 in very good shape. The only thing that isn't great are the sprockets. I have seen posts about welding ones on etc. What are my options for replacing repairing these and where do I get the parts? I have a used set of sprockets, received at the time of purchase, but they look the same as the ones on it. I am located in Southern Saskatchewan, Canada.
Thanks in advance.
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DMiller
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Location: Hermann, Mo
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 3:59pm |
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Allis offerred replacement rings for the sprockets(weld ons) that you cut your spokes and aligned/welded the new ring to. You may check with salvagers in your area if they have any that are worthy of replacement, if not, perhaps locating a used Cat or Deere for bolt on segments and modifying yours to accept those. Have been told many cut a section out of the ring to install in place then welded all points closed.
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Lazyts
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 5:37pm |
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I'm assuming you have the old style sprockets with the weld-on rims. The next question, is it an early or late 16- there are two different weld-on rims, one is the old HD15-16, the other is the later 16D style, about 1964 and newer, I believe.
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 04 Oct 2012 at 6:58pm |
I have never seen one in a salvage yard, but have never seen a construction equipment yard either....
I believe its a 65 but am going to check the serial number on Monday to verify.
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Mactractor
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 3:28am |
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Did they change the track chain on 16s with the introduction of hydraulic steer tractors like they did with HD11 Trev?
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Dozer
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 7:16am |
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There is another sprocket repair. Individual pieces of metal are welded to the wear area on the sprocket. One supplier offered a "U" shaped insert that was thin in the middle and thicker at the tip of the teeth. The repair I will be doing on my HD6G involves welding a piece of 1/8 x 3/4 x sprocket width on each side of each tooth at the wear point. I plan on doing this next spring when I change the chain.
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CAL(KS)
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 8:08am |
i dont know about locating new but, General Gear and Machine has crawlers for salvage.
Hd15 & 16 and newer models also. whether any have good sprockets is the question. I have purchased items in the past and was pleased with their service.
I have a 62' 16d parts machine it has same sprockets as 15 &16.
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Lazyts
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 10:33am |
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Yes Mac, the 16s had a similar upgrade to the 11s on the track with the introduction of the power shift, the hydraulic steer predated this a couple of years on the 11. The HD11 upgrade went hydraulic steer (about 1961), then direct injection 10000 (1962) then power shift and track upgrade, (1963 or 64). Then, to confuse matters, Allis continued to manufacture a cheaper HD11B model with the old track and dry steering clutches right up until the series B came out. Way too many choices- they had the HD11AG as well, which some guys put dozers on because they were cheaper. I had an older HD11ES, which was supposed to be a farm crawler (lighter guarding, no front tow hook, etc), but it had a factory dozer set up on it.
The HD16 was a very popular tractor in Saskatchewan. I heard a story where one dealer in SK sold 40 new 16DCs in the mid sixties, then only sold 3 DPs the next year, when the DC was discontinued. These tractors were used for small scale road building, and the DC worked great for pushing scrapers. The DP, on the other hand, was too slow in 1st gear, and when they tried to push in high they overheated. A-C put themselves right out of the mid sized tractor business with the 2 speed transmission. The 11 was the same- many county machines were Allis in the old days. That being said, the 16 was still a very popular machine for land clearing here on the Canadian prairies, and many are still being used for that purpose on farms. Some guys would run 11s as well, and use them on the soft ground, as they ride over much better than the 16, which tends to sink like a stone.
Anyway- for the SK gentleman-
I can get you new rings for either style of 16, PM me if interested...
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Mactractor
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 3:44pm |
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According to the book of words, the 16DP, like the first 11EP, had the forward gears faster than reverse. The book says the DP did 3.4 mph in 1st. How much faster are powershift D7Es in 2nd gear if the AC was too slow?
I,m editing this post after looking at the Caterpillar spec book. The D7E 48A does 3.6 mph in second gear. Effectively, the HD16DP has Caterpillars bottom two gears in one gear, but the output of the Allis torque converter is unmatched by any Caterpillar tractor.
Any theory that the Allis was too slow compared with 3 speed `yellow` tractors, could well have been put about by Caterpillar sales staff. Cats publications `Competitive Information` are quite humourous to read if nothing else to anyone who has experience at the controls of other makes of tractors
Edited by Mactractor - 05 Oct 2012 at 4:57pm
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Lazyts
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 5:39pm |
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I've heard this same story twice, both from Allis owners, not Cat men, bemoaning the fact that A-C didn't have the 3 gears (except the 21, which had 3 speeds). It's all second hand information for me- I've never pushed a scraper- I just like to hear the stories. I know lots of old Allis storytellers...
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Mactractor
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Posted: 05 Oct 2012 at 7:39pm |
Well put Trev 
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 06 Oct 2012 at 2:18am |
FWIW
I just drove past a neighbour's 16 DP and it looks to have bolt-on sprocket rims of some sort - don't know whether rims or segments. I'm sure it still has Allis tracks on.
I can ask if interested.
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Lazyts
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Posted: 07 Oct 2012 at 3:54pm |
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The very last DPs came from the factory with segment style sprockets- 1970, just prior to the Series B. This is the time period when Allis switched from rims to segments- both the 12G and 21-B started out with rims, then switched to segments. HD11 got the segments and Series B changes at the same time.
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 4:31pm |
Sorry for the late reply. I was on my machine for 6 hours yesterday, it was fun but the left sprocket is slipping under extreme turning (wont do that again in fear of wrecking something).
More on the machine. it is an HD16A and by the serial number 5635 it would be a 62.
I am interested in new sprockets but when we bought the machine it came with used one I felt were no better. But after looking at them they might not be too bad. I will enclose pics of the old Sprockets and used ones and tell me what you think.
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 4:35pm |
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 4:38pm |
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Mactractor
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Posted: 09 Oct 2012 at 4:58pm |
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Many sprockets in that shape have been built back up with weld using 350 grade surfacing rods with the sprockets still on the tractor. Just bear in mind, when tracks get to that stage of wear, its time to reset the preload on the tapered roller bearings in the final drives. The owners that dont do that are always the ones that have final drive problems, then complain that the finals in their tractor are weak in design
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 1:02am |
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I apoligize for the pics I couldn't make them smaller....
The first one is one of the used pair I have and the 2nd one is the current ones on it. Would anyone use the used pair vs buying new?
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HD6 Merv
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Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 1:27am |
always remember the reason the sprockets are worn is because the track chain pitch is stretched; ie worn pins and bushes. I,ll second what mac said about rebuilding sprockets with 350 hardfacing rods. Helps immensly if you have a template of a new sprocket tooth to help show you where to build them up. Is easier to do with track off; but i have done it in place on my D4D. Pins were actually worn through some of the bushes on my tractor. But just built up the sprockets with weld to keep it going for another 500hrs till i got new chains and sprockets for her. I just did it in the field with a lincoln 225 weldanpower, petrol welder. took about a day a side. only really cost rods, petrol and beer to replace the lost sweat !
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tits tyres and tracks
they all cost you money
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 4:26pm |
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Is there a measurement or something I can use to check if the used sprockets are worth using? When looking at the new ones in the manual vs the ones on it I would estimate they at 60% left.
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gemdozer
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Posted: 10 Oct 2012 at 4:46pm |
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I am't sure but you should have 7.875" each 2 teeths on sprocket and sprocket should be 35.125" hight outside teeth and 31.515 inside with 27 teeths
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Rawleigh
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Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 9:11am |
Here is a good thread from Redpower on this subject with a post of a Cat bulletin on welding sprockets, rollers and chain. http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74531
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 4:39am |
I talked to my neighbour about his 16DP sprockets. They are segments and the same as 16B's. However the sprocket disc is not the same.
And the 16DP ones are rare - he's only ever seen 4-5 and he gets around this field.
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Ages Cat
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Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 9:51am |
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Look here: http://www.machinerytrader.com/
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DMiller
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Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 10:26am |
Ages cat, was just on MT and saw the HD16B with the segment rear sprocket, looking at the closeup of the set up on the rear it looks like they machined the hub off a solid sprocket and added the disc for the segments, could be a good way to move a machine up in repair parts.
Edited by DMiller - 15 Oct 2012 at 10:26am
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Lazyts
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Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 12:47pm |
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There's a brand new set of chains for a 16A just down the road from me as well...
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 9:00pm |
For how much?
Also was quoted 60hrs to take off the sprockets and inspect the drives. thoughts on if that souns reasonable? it sounds like double what expected.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 15 Oct 2012 at 9:26pm |
My neighbour commented that the segment discs for the 16DP are dished, those for the 16B are straight. So that 16B might well be original. And says the 16B axle is larger.
Not to say that you couldn't do a copy for an earlier 16 though.
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69gmcor70chevy
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Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 12:18am |
 gemdozer wrote:
I am't sure but you should have 7.875" each 2 teeths on sprocket and sprocket should be 35.125" hight outside teeth and 31.515 inside with 27 teeths |
Gemdozer, is that to the edge of the splined portion of the center?
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Lazyts
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Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 6:43pm |
When working on old dozers, quoting how long you think it will take for a repair, then doubling it, is reasonable. 
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