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CA Supplemental Hydraulic Pump Sizing
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dfwallis View Drop Down
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023
Location: DFW
Points: 631 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: CA Supplemental Hydraulic Pump Sizing
    Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 3:12pm
What would be a proper target GPM size for a supplemental hydraulic pump for a CA (given limited horsepower)?  10GPM?  15GPM? ?  (10GPM ~ 11HP at 2000PSI per one online calculator that I don't really trust)
1952 CA13092
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20532 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 3:32pm
Depends on the diameter(s) of the cylinders you are going to use. Depends on the system pressures and how much you intend to lift. Depends on if the engine is going to run 2000 RPM most of the time you are activating the hydraulics or 1000 RPM. Depends on what YOU think the lifting speed should be. Whatever you'd do with a tractor that size and cylinders of 2 inch diameter max (1 1/2" might be more suited) 10 GPM will be lightning fast at full throttle.  A 400 series loader has a 10-12 GPM front pump and it will lift the loader boom from the ground to full height in 3 seconds !!! and that's filling TWO boom cylinders. Personally, I'd want 5 GPM and no more at full throttle.
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dfwallis View Drop Down
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Points: 631 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 3:39pm
It will likely max out about 1200-1500 RPM.  I intend to select a low-ish RPM pump and gear it accordingly.  Probably no larger than 2-2.5 inch cylinders, ~2000PSI.  
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Stan R View Drop Down
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Points: 960 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2024 at 5:48pm
I'd suggest just direct coupling to the engine (crank shaft or belt) or pto and not deal with any gearbox (extra cost, more hp loss, bulkier system...).

Flow is somewhat proportional to the rpm. Which way are you planning on powering the pump.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2023
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Points: 631 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Stan R Stan R wrote:

I'd suggest just direct coupling to the engine (crank shaft or belt) or pto and not deal with any gearbox (extra cost, more hp loss, bulkier system...).

Flow is somewhat proportional to the rpm. Which way are you planning on powering the pump.

There is no good access point.  I could go the common route of powering off the generator, but the generator rebuilder and I don't like that idea.   Also blocking the manual crank port is a no-go.  So, I'm leaning toward the belt pulley (new pulley), if I identify a good way to mount the pump.  Yes I know this is still problematic in that it's not fully "live".  I don't really find that to be a major problem as long as the hand clutch is working correctly.  Not planning on any separate gearbox.  You can get a pump rated for most any reasonable RPM you want.  I had planned to use a diverter to divert the native pump to a new control platform, but given the difficulties I've had so far getting it to work correctly, I'm leary of that approach, plus a bit more flow capacity would be good.  But nothing's set in stone yet.  I'm still (re-)theorizing.


Edited by dfwallis - 05 Nov 2024 at 10:56am
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Les Kerf View Drop Down
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Points: 786 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by dfwallis dfwallis wrote:

What would be a proper target GPM size for a supplemental hydraulic pump for a CA (given limited horsepower)?  10GPM?  15GPM? ?  (10GPM ~ 11HP at 2000PSI per one online calculator that I don't really trust)

A couple of years ago my friend bought a (much too large) 3-point hitch backhoe for his little Ferguson tractor; he then purchased a PTO driven pump that was also much too large, it was in the ~17 gpm range or thereabouts (I am too lazy to go look it up for the exact specs).

When he tried to use the backhoe it simply killed the engine on the tractor so he asked me to take a look at it. When he told me how big the pump was I was pretty confident where the problem was. He wound up getting a pump that was just under half the size (again I am too lazy to look it up) and that fixed the problem other than the backhoe is still too big for that little Fergie; it needs a WD45 at minimum.
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Points: 786 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by dfwallis dfwallis wrote:

...  So, I'm leaning toward the belt pulley (new pulley), if I identify a good way to mount the pump.  Yes I know this is still problematic in that it's not fully "live".  I don't really find that to be a major problem as long as the hand clutch is working correctly...

My late Father-in-law mounted a pump directly-driven on the belt pulley drive of his WD. I see no reason why this couldn't be done on a CA as well. He used a Lovejoy coupler and welded up the pump mount, I think he had to get a small amount of machine shop work done.
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Joined: 20 Sep 2009
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Points: 952 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WD45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 2:31pm
Run the pump off the crankshaft one has live hyd's plus frees the pto up.
Fred Dunlop, G,B,CA, WC,WF, 3 WD45`s,gas, diesel and LP,U,D10 series III, D12,D14,D15 SERIES II,D17 Series IV in Gas and Diesel ,D19 GAS and D21,170 185,210 ,220 an I-600 8070 fwd, 716H and 1920H
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Points: 81291 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 3:54pm
another option to have LIVE and not block off the crank is to run a drive shaft out the front of the crank mounted in a couple bearings... mount the pump below that shaft and chain drive them together.. Leave access to the  DRIVE SHAFT to manually rotate the engine if needed.

only problem with using the PTO and hand clutch is your hands are already busy running the steering wheel and bucket levers.


Edited by steve(ill) - 05 Nov 2024 at 4:04pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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dfwallis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

another option to have LIVE and not block off the crank is to run a drive shaft out the front of the crank mounted in a couple bearings... mount the pump below that shaft and chain drive them together.. Leave access to the  DRIVE SHAFT to manually rotate the engine if needed.

only problem with using the PTO and hand clutch is your hands are already busy running the steering wheel and bucket levers.

Anything I do will not mod the tractor itself, just use existing bolt patterns (only exception so far was drilling one hole in the drawbar).  If I decide to do something different in the future, I easily can.  I don't envision a loader, just 3pt devices that need to slide left or right, up or down, open or close, etc.  I'm pretty nimble.  I don't think operations will be problematic or only rarely.  I also don't see anything that needs to operate too awful fast, but I want some spare capacity just in case.  I lean towards a 2000RPM rated 7-10gpm pump run closer to 1000RPM (once I investigate the flow curve vs RPM).  That gives options to speed it up in the future if needed (provided there's the HP to do it).  Also thinking of a clutch mechanism when the supplemental pump isn't needed.
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Points: 786 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by dfwallis dfwallis wrote:

....  I don't envision a loader, just 3pt devices that need to slide left or right, up or down, open or close, etc.  I...

Hmmm...
This sounds like a perfect application for a 12 Volt snowplow pump.
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Points: 81291 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 7:40pm
YEP... if your not CYCLING Constantly, i would go with a 12v electric pump..
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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dfwallis View Drop Down
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Points: 631 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dfwallis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2024 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

YEP... if your not CYCLING Constantly, i would go with a 12v electric pump..

Looked at a sampling.  Way too tiny flow rate for way too humongous price.  Plus I'd have to add a 12V source of some sort.  I think I like my approach best.  If I decide to change the takeoff source, I can just move the 10GPM pump.  If I need a little higher flow rate than produced at 1000RPM I can change the pulley size and get a little boost (assuming available HP).  The system has to connect to my console of 4 dual acting spools and 2 single acting spools as I've designed it and has to mount conveniently in the rear of the tractor.  A small gear pump fits the criteria best.
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Points: 10133 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2024 at 1:05pm
They used to mount a hydralic pump in front of the distributor.
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