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calico190xt68 
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 Topic: Electronic Tachometer Implementation
Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 5:00pm |
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Again, this is off Allis topic but I do use this semi as "farm equipment". I can't resist asking because the electrical help is phenomenal on the forum! The GMC General semi that I just fixed the burnt wire on has no mechanical tachometer cable. I believe it is missing due to the Cummins engine replacement. The tach cable may not have matched the tach in the dash. Just wondering if it would be possible to install a new Electronic Tachometer that uses the alternator? I believe I have the 12000 LC series Leece/Neville alternator but they do have multiple models and not sure which one I have. Would this alternator work with an Electronic Tachometer? The other option is to purchase a mechanical cable and replace the tach in the dash that fits that cable. I would really like a working tachometer on this truck. I don't care about the odometer. To bring this topic back to tractors though, could you also implement an electronic tach on a tractor if you really wanted to do that? Thanks for any and all electrical advice!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 5:02pm |
Alternators designed for tachs will have a 'special' terminal or tab. That info 'should' be in the spec sheet......
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PaulB
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Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 5:30pm |
If the tachometer in the dash is a mechanical unit and the rotation is the same, just get a drive cable made to go from the tach drive on the engine to the dash. For an electric tach get mechanical sender that goes where you would connect a drive cable.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 7:15pm |
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and on a tractor.... diesels engines normally use the pickup stud on the alternator... gas engines can use the PULSE from one spark plug...... and it is always possible to mount s SPEED PICKUP sensor on a bracket near the crank shaft pulley and use a magnetic strip on the pulley, or a set screw, or a hole, etc... anything you can COUNT per revolution.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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8070nc
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Posted: 20 Sep 2024 at 8:34pm |
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It is possible to put to get a tach and pickup. Speedhut has everything you need on thier website. You can have the tach made with different background colors and even a logo. I just had one made for my L3 gleaner. Its possible that the sae belhouing has a hole drilled and tapped for the pickup
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1984 80780
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 21 Sep 2024 at 9:12am |
Based upon the comments, I did some research. The Cummins 855 engine uses a mechanical tachometer that goes into the Cummins PT 1 Injection Pump. The original Detroit Diesel engine has multiple options with the primary option being engine mounted reading the camshaft. While it may be possible to screw in a mechanical cable into the current gauge, doubtful that it would be calibrated correctly since it was for detroit diesel gauge. So, I could get a PT 1 Pump tach cable (it has been missing since I bought the truck) and a compatible mechanical gauge from Cummins. Although I have noticed that Cummins makes John Deere parts look cheap sometimes. I might get the speedometer back if I did this I believe. Of course, I haven't opened up the dash yet to see what I really have. Nothing surprises me on this truck when it comes to wiring.
The other possibly easier and cheaper route is to use the alternator. I think I need to find the "AC Tap" terminal on the Leece/Neville alternator. If I can't find that terminal, I could get one of those magnetic pulse sensors mounted to the outside of the alternator.
8070nc, I looked at Speed Hut and Autometer. Since you say Speedhut had everything you needed to do a Gleaner L3 engine, I thought I would see if you could provide which Diesel Tach model you bought and what method of input did you use for Tach? SpeedHut mentions that there are 3 ways to use their Diesel tachs: an alternator with an ‘R’ or ‘W’ terminal, a crank sensor signal, or a magnetic pulse sensor. I think Leece Neville calls the R/W terminal "AC Tap". I got to clean my alternator off to see if I can find it. Did you have any trouble calibrating it?
The configurable color and logo is definitely cool! It is about the same price as other Tachs. I have been thinking about some orange lighting on the outside of the truck so an orange tach would be a way to bring the Allis theme in play. :-)
I love the design tool they have online. This is my first stab at the design. Hard to find a clean gmc general logo so far. I need to move the general on top of the stars.
Thanks for the help everyone!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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8070nc
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Posted: 21 Sep 2024 at 10:59am |
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I got the one for a magnetic pickup. The pulley on the output shaft on the engine is toothed and the original tach had a pickup there. I havent installed mine yet but I dont anticipate any problems calibrating it
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1984 80780
1957 D14
DES 300 with 25000 engine
616 tractor
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8070nc
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Posted: 21 Sep 2024 at 11:03am |
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1984 80780
1957 D14
DES 300 with 25000 engine
616 tractor
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 21 Sep 2024 at 11:15am |
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That is swweeeet! I had a feeling that was your logo. I am wondering about those shift lights and how they will work. I also noticed I can get a GPS speedometer from them with the same features. Of course, the two gauges are going to set me back about $550 but can do it myself. My son would love all the gauges to be speed hut. Thanks for turning me onto that company!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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8070nc
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Posted: 21 Sep 2024 at 11:31am |
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Glad I could help
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1984 80780
1957 D14
DES 300 with 25000 engine
616 tractor
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PaulB
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Posted: 22 Sep 2024 at 9:42am |
All mechanical tachometers will read the same at any given input speed, the only thing you may encounter is a output speed. If reading directly from the camshaft, it will be 1/2 engine speed. I can't say what speed the output at the Cummins PT pump is, I've never checked it. I do know that most all distributer output I've encountered are 1/2 engine speed. You simple solution is what I said to begin with, Just get a cable made to attach at the PT pump connection. No need to overthink it.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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ekjdm14
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Posted: 22 Sep 2024 at 10:27am |
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Detroit 2 stroke the cam rotates at crank speed so it may end up reading 1/2 speed if you went with the cable. Mind you, most other mechanical tachs from 4 stroke engines ought to be compatible then & cheaper to source than a genuine Cummins or electronic gauge.
Edited by ekjdm14 - 22 Sep 2024 at 10:30am
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 22 Sep 2024 at 2:41pm |
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Well, I will take my dash apart and see what I have. A mechanical cable going to the PT pump looks like about $150. Most of the time, you have an existing cable to use as a reference. I do not have that. I hope i can figure it out. I will measure the opening on the pt pump.
Although, I am attracted to the pretty gauges by SpeedHut. :-)
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 22 Sep 2024 at 5:30pm |
Curiosity got the best of me. Took the tach and speedometer out of the dash. My hunches were completely wrong. It doesn't have a mechanical tach at all. So that's why there is no mechanical cable. This motorola Tach is for a Freightliner semi I believe.
Going to track the wires down, but it is tough. I see they spliced wires in. Not sure about the speedometer wiring either. Will do some more research. Both gauges might work. It could be wiring and not the gauges. I suppose I could remove the gauges and direct wire and see if they work.
Speedometer has a lot of mouse crap all over it.
I always wondered why the truck smelled of mouse pee. They were living in the tach and speedo dash holes. Lots of room behind those gauges for a mouse hotel. Going to have to fix that too.
If I determine these gauges don't work, then I might as well go the Speed Hut route. Looking at the setup of the tach, I am not sure how I would get the cable routed into the tachometer dash bay anyway.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 23 Sep 2024 at 1:51pm |
That Motorola gauge MAY have been set up originally to either read off the alternator 'tach' signal, OR off a mechanical sensor at the injection pump... IIRC there were a bunch of different ways things were handled in that era, my experience from diesels of that size being mostly marine propulsion, I frequently saw sending units that threaded into the injection pump, and all the sending unit had in it, was a spinning magnet and a hall-effect transistor... it sent a pulse for each revolution, and the tach indicated it off that. The only difference between sensors, was the drive shape and locking ring (that held the sensor to the pump)... very simple.
Mouse urine in the electronic tachometer though... bad thing... MOUSE BAD!!
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nanuk
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Posted: 24 Sep 2024 at 4:42pm |
Mice.... LOL
I was driving my tractor the first time one spring, moving it to hook up a cultivator. there's no metal on the top of the dash behind the dash face... and up pops a mouse.
I was wearing gloves, so I grabbed it and tossed it out the window... and up pops number 2. it too joined it's buddy in the field.
about 1/2 hour later... up pops number 3. And yup, out the window.
never found a nest, or even anything to indicate mice had been there...
I don't like mice.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 25 Sep 2024 at 10:38am |
I have figured out more about the tachometer situation. I have a Leece Neville 160 AMP 2828LC Alternator that is originally off of an RV. Consequently, it does not have the W or AC Tap to get a pulse from it. Another rig job. As well, my luck is that this tach is about the only Tachometer they make that does not have a pulse terminal because it is used for the Duvac system that are on RVs.
The good news is that I traced the wires from the tach to the rear and bottom of the engine. I have a crank case sensor installed on my Cummins 855. Now, I have to figure out if I have a bad sensor or a bad tach. The sensor looks a little rough with dirt and oil all over it so I am going to crawl under it and see if anything is obvious. The tach was part of a mouse hotel so they both could be bad. I worry about breaking the sensor off getting out too so would like to prove the tach is good or bad first. The sensors I see online seem to be all over the place in terms of prices but they look similar. Some as low as $55.
Not sure how I can test the Tach to know it is good. I need something that produces a pulse, I believe? My searches don't really indicate a good method to figure out the tach and/or the sensor. All youtube videos show using an ignition coil but a diesel doesn't have that. Hoping the electrical geniuses on here can suggest a test method for both. Thanks in advance!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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8070nc
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Posted: 25 Sep 2024 at 1:18pm |
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There are pulse generators out there. Ive never used one but ive seen them. I would assume you would need to know the voltage pulse the tach needs. I think you could find one with a internet search
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1984 80780
1957 D14
DES 300 with 25000 engine
616 tractor
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 25 Sep 2024 at 7:40pm |
I found out the key to testing the crankcase pulse sensor is to place the multimeter in AC mode and not DC mode. The pulse is too fast for DC mode. So, I put black lead on ground wire and red lead on signal wire on the tach with the truck running and I got no pulse. Wires look good to the sensor. So, I believe I have a bad sensor. Sensor looks kind of new after I cleaned the oil and dirt off of it. It may not be OEM.
Looks like there are chinese knockoffs floating around on Amazon that claim they fit 855 engine. They say they are 3/4 inch which is what I have. I also realized in shopping around that some of the aftermarket sensors come with two leads, one for tach and one for speedometer. I could get both working possibly with one new sensor.
I haven't traced the wires on the Speedometer yet. Wonder if they splice into the tach wires? Where else would the speedometer get the pickup of the pulse from since there is no tach cable? The speedo is also electronic.
I may have to speed $70 to try the amazon versions. I can always send it back if it doesn't fit or work. I found a genuine cummins part for the tach and it was $576!
Thanks for the help. I am learning a lot the hard way.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 25 Sep 2024 at 8:25pm |
Shoulda got a Cat motor... 
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 25 Sep 2024 at 10:15pm |
 DiyDave wrote:
Shoulda got a Cat motor... |
I hear you but I really like the Cummins 855 Big Cam 3 I own at the price I paid. The motor is fine, just all of the rig jobs on the electrical that is killing me. Plus I shot myself in the foot due to not following the wires to the end. I do think the engine swap created a bit of a mess on the electrical. And, farmer induced rig jobs to save money doesn't help much either.
Never thought I would own a semi to haul hay but it is super nice from a capacity perspective. Hauling 28 4x5 round bales or nearly 350 small squares at one time is super nice.
I will prevail!
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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DiyDave
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Posted: Yesterday at 4:39am |
calico190xt68 wrote:
DiyDave wrote:
Shoulda got a Cat motor... |
I hear you but I really like the Cummins 855 Big Cam 3 I own at the price I paid. The motor is fine, just all of the rig jobs on the electrical that is killing me. Plus I shot myself in the foot due to not following the wires to the end. I do think the engine swap created a bit of a mess on the electrical. And, farmer induced rig jobs to save money doesn't help much either.
Never thought I would own a semi to haul hay but it is super nice from a capacity perspective. Hauling 28 4x5 round bales or nearly 350 small squares at one time is super nice.
I will prevail!
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I was just making the obvious mouse pun...
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calico190xt68
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Posted: Yesterday at 6:57am |
Duh, went right over my head! 
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ekjdm14
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Posted: Yesterday at 7:41am |
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Ha, got me as well. Off to look now, see if Adept Ape on youtube ever has mouse issues.
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calico190xt68
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Posted: 7 hours 57 minutes ago at 1:18pm |
To keep documenting this fix, I have more information. I called Cummins and they say that engine serial number never had a magnetic pulse sensor on the bottom side of the engine. So, someone decided to tap into the crankcase and make one. Cummins parts guy liked the fact that I had a 37 year old engine still running good. I said I got some Allis diesel engines even older and they run good too.
I also found out that my Alternator is about the only alternator that Leece Neville makes that does NOT come with a pulse terminal. The reason why it does not have one is because this Alternator is used in the RV market and they use a Duvac system. So, the engine swap guy must have had one of those RV alternators laying around. It is 160 amp which is about 50 more amps than the truck had originally.
I did clean the current sensor of dirt and oil and I noticed it looked kind of new. So, I started looking online and lo and behold, I found what looks like an exact match. Turns out it is a fairly modern Mack truck magnetic pulse. So, I ordered it. Next I have to get the gap on the pulse correct. I guess it is about the width of a credit card. Never done this so who knows what will happen.
I may be back on track to fix this after all. Although, I learn of more rig jobs at every corner. I am learning that an engine swap of a different brand can have a lot of undesirable ramifications not related to the engine.
I have to figure out how to deal with those mices as final step. I see some people like to spray peppermint oil and others suggest the high frequency rodent electronic devices. Moth balls do work but then the cab smells like moth balls. Worry the dog might go crazy with the high freq stuff. She doesn't spend much time in the barn though. Not sure it is new mouse droppings either. I think the truck sit around for several years after the last owner got sick and then died. Mouse invasion probably happened then.
I will report back on the final fix or final failure next week. Waiting on parts.
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80 7010, 80 7020. 67 190XTD Series I w/500 Loader, AC 2000 Plow, AC 4 row Planter, AC 77G Rake, Member Indiana A-C Partners, Member TAC
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