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Freewheeling 
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Location: Wisconsin
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 Topic: Torque adjustment for Loctite
Posted: 03 Aug 2024 at 2:13pm |
I've seen several postings stating torque should be reduced by 20% per Loctite. It sounded a bit too simple. Here is the reply I got from Henkel who manufactures Loctite.
Thank you for your interest in Henkel products. Unfortunately, we do not have published values for torque correction for our products. The K value is a dimensionless unit that accommodates all variability in a fastener system. The lubricity our materials provide is only a small component of the total value. K value also includes under head bolt friction between the bolt and the surface. The surface on the bottom of the bolt varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. The surface you bolt to is also variable, ranging from a hardened washer that spreads the load (ideal) to aluminum which will actually compresses under the load. Other factors that affect the K value include variation in surface roughness, anti-corrosion coatings and bolt material. To further complicate issue, the K value also changes relative to the bolt size. The current Henkel worldwide standard is an M10 Black Oxide fastener; however in North America we traditionally used a 3/8" - 16 steel bolt as a test specimen, each of which affects the results. All this means that your torque correction would need to be determined experimentally. Our lab has the ability to do this testing. If you'd like to explore this option, I can have your local rep contact you to discuss. Regards, Eric Devine Henkel Corporation | General Manufacturing & Maintenance | ACM Technical Information Services One Henkel Way, Rocky Hill, CT 06067 | email: tech.services@henkel.com Customer Support Center | Canada Toll Free 800.263.5043 | USA Toll Free 800.LOCTITE (562.8483)
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DrAllis
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Posted: 03 Aug 2024 at 3:58pm |
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Reducing the torque by 20% is stupid in my opinion. I've used all kinds of Loctite products for decades and never once considered reducing the bolt torque.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 04 Aug 2024 at 1:51pm |
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I'm with Doc on this one...
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Fred in Pa
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Posted: 04 Aug 2024 at 2:05pm |
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Hope its not your pressure plate bolts .
Edited by Fred in Pa - 04 Aug 2024 at 2:06pm
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He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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nella(Pa)
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Posted: 04 Aug 2024 at 2:06pm |
 DrAllis wrote:
Reducing the torque by 20% is stupid in my opinion. I've used all kinds of Loctite products for decades and never once considered reducing the bolt torque. |
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WF owner
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Posted: 04 Aug 2024 at 5:33pm |
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If you could make a case for reducing torque by 20%, you would be talking about reducing torque on a 150 ft. lb. bolt to 120 ft. lb. That is a very significant reduction!
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Dakota Dave
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Posted: 05 Aug 2024 at 12:32pm |
working aircraft Maintenace in the military we had to use T. O. 1-1A-8 for everything there was no reduction for lock tight. and a 5% increase for anything torqued with lube not specified by the Tech Order.
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DougG
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Posted: 05 Aug 2024 at 6:28pm |
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Last time I redone the clutch on my 99 Dodge Cummins- used Locktite gel, wasnt messing around and that stuff was setting up quick !
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Freewheeling
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Posted: 07 Aug 2024 at 6:13am |
My take on
all of this is that the goal is to attain the proper clamping force while not
exceeding the tensile strength of the bolt or stripping the treads of the
connecting material. Since this is a 70
year old tractor that’s undoubtedly been worked on several times with evidence
of poor workmanship, this isn’t like assembling new parts. Reused bolts and washers, chased threads, and
improper installation can all have an effect. I know, this ain’t an aircraft but it’s about
reducing risk of failure. Plus I don’t like splitting tractors.In the case
of the flywheel bolts, based on evidence that the ring gear had been replaced
it’s likely that the bolts mounting to the crank have been torqued more than
once. Since this is a special shoulder
bolt no longer available I’m going to reuse them. The surfaces of the flywheel
where the washer rides were chewed up so I had them cleaned up. The bolts thread into the crank easily so I’m
not chasing thread and there is no sign that the proof load was exceeded like
there was on the pressure plate bolts. I’m going to torque to 50 lbs using new
grade 8 unplated washers and without thread locker.
The pressure
plate will get new US manufactured grade 5 bolts. Since I can’t find grade 5 unplated
washers I’m using US made grade 8. I’ll
torque to 17 lbs per the torque spec charts since those figures are based on
75-80% of the yield strength which is below the tensile strength. No thread locker. After I cleaned and brushed the internal threads
in the flywheel, the bolts turn in easily so sheering threads should not be a
problem.
I chose to
go without thread locker simply because it wasn’t invented until after this tractor‘s
birthday so it was built without it. Since
the published generic torque spec charts are at least 80% of the tensile or
failure strength and it seems to explain why using Loctite isn’t usually a
problem if all other factors are known and acceptable which is questionable in
this case. So as to whether it could
have an adverse effect or not, I’ve simply taken it out of the equation. I’m basically duplicating the materials and
specs used by Allis as best I can determine. One final word on Loctite is that Henkel advises
not to buy it on Amazon as they have no authorized sellers on that site and
have discovered fraudulent product. The
same applies to fasteners. Pay the extra money for US made product if you can
find it.
I appreciate
all of your input gentlemen and have learned a lot about fasteners and torque
specs.
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Fred in Pa
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Posted: 07 Aug 2024 at 10:59am |
How do you tighten the bell housing bolts .
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He who dies with the most toys is,
nonetheless ,still dead.
If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED.
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Freewheeling
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Posted: 07 Aug 2024 at 11:17pm |
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I haven't done that yet. However, if I recall when disassembling there isn't much room for a torque wrench. I believe the bolts are 5/8" so torque will be 150 lbs if course thread. If need be I'll tighten a bolt in another location to get a feel for what 150 lbs feels like with whatever wrench will work. If I'm over a few libs I don't think it will matter.
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Matt -mid-mich
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Posted: 08 Aug 2024 at 9:16am |
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Will you be using safety wire too ?
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We have 86400 seconds to everyday make every second count because we never know when it's our last
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Freewheeling
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Posted: 09 Aug 2024 at 1:30am |
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Nope. These bolts do not have holes for the wire.. I'd have to drill them which can be a little hairy on a 5/16 bolt and I don't think it's necessary.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 09 Aug 2024 at 6:51am |
gee, after reading Henkel's reply, I'm K-inda K-onfused.... Eric beats around the bush, then says 'our lab can test', they just don't do it....... Have split my D-14 2-3 times and never used a torque wrench. Went to use my fancy 'click torque' once on the F150 wheel studs and NOWHERE in the owner's book does Ford state WHAT the foot-pounds is supposed to be.......100 seems like a good number, at least wheels are still on !
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 10:39am |
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Jay the wheel torque on the F150 is 140 to 150 on the Ford pickups. Some years are a bit more or less. Who knows why?? And it is in the book but takes a 1/2 hr to find. Can be frustrating. Lol. 😀😀 You would think they would put in the back of manual where it should be. That would be too easy for modern brainiacs.
Edited by Ed (Ont) - 10 Aug 2024 at 10:41am
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 10:54am |
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Most of the new pickups are in that range. My 24 GMC is 140 ft/lbs. My old 99 GMC was listed as 120 ft/lbs. Again why the difference? Same wheel studs and nuts - 14 x 1.5. Most of the pickups are 14mm studs.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 12:08pm |
The reason maybe possibly Aluminum wheels vs Steel wheels? A couple of my hotrods have Aluminum wheels. I've always torqued them at 75-85 ft lbs. depending on whether they were a shank type lug nut, or an Acorn type lug nut. I remember years ago some of the aftermarket wheel mfrs. would say don't over torque their Aluminum wheels due to galling depending on the design of the wheel and the lug nut used. The steel wheels using an Acorn type lug nut I would run down with the low air gun or electric gun to about when it hit the wheel, and then i would snug them by hand with the lug wrench I keep in the trunk of the vehicle so in case I get a flat, I can change it out without issue. Some of these guys in the gas stations slam lug nuts down full bore with an air gun. If you ever tried to change a flat, it's almost impossible to remove the lug nuts to change a flat. You need to be like Lou Ferrigno ... LOL! I always use Anti-sieze on the studs as well. Never had a loose wheel or an problem removing one.....Just my experience.
Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Ed (Ont)
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Posted: 10 Aug 2024 at 1:35pm |
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My old truck had stock aluminum wheels. So does the new truck. I am always more careful with the aluminum wheels. They seem to be more prone to problems. Up here we have a lot of corrosion problems due to salt. So on aluminum wheels I clean the backs with hi speed small grinder and fuzzy cookies. Clean the hub a bit with wire brush. Helps a lot. I know you guys do not have that problem. 😀😀 Then I coat back of rim with antiseize or grease.
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