| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
newbe2 
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: model d grader
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 11:10am |
On going story of the 1953 model D grader with the D15 diesel engine. Good news, the engine runs, bad news the engine flywheel locks up in the trans housing when properly bolted together. as long as the bolts are loose the starter engages the flywheel and the engine runs, tighten the bolts and the starter no longer engages the flywheel and the engine flywheel locks up in the housing. Any thoughts Thanks
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 787
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 3:25pm |
|
Remove the starter, then tighten the bolts and see if the engine can still be rotated by hand. If it can, then the starter itself must be at fault and you can then try to determine why.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 4:08pm |
|
Has it been taken apart ?? Sounds like there is a spacer ring / plate that goes between the crank and flywheel that is missing ? Im not saying there IS A PLATE... just sounds like the flywheel is pushing on TOO FAR and needs a spacer.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 6:07pm |
Les and Steve thanks for the input. There is a 1/2" adapter (spacer) between the engine block and the trans housing. It appears that the original flywheel mated to the D15 diesel crank, possibly with or without a spacer. my next move will be to pull the engine and find out. However, the starter drive enters from the back of the trans housing and is a fixed location based on the original flywheel ring location from the WD engine. All things being equal the spacer between the block and the housing should have moved the ring gear away from the starter drive and create more space between the ring gear and the inside of the housing, in which case the starter drive would not engage the flywheel and turn the engine. If a 1/2 inch spacer was placed between the crank and the flywheel the ring gear would return to the original position in relation to the starter drive and the drive would engage the flywheel and turn the engine. Neither one explains why the relationship between the flywheel and the starter drive and or housing changes when the bolts securing the engine to the trans housing are tight. Note, the difference between loose and tight is less than 1/16" between the the two surfaces, just enough for the engine to wiggle when turning over and running. Could it be that a thicker spacer plate was used between the crank and the flywheel? that might explain the lock up when the bolts are tight.
question: are the W, WD, WD45 and D17 226 cu in blocks the same, except for internal changes? They look the same and my book indicates that the head is interchangeable between them. If so, will the D17 226 block, minus the adapter plate, mate to the 1953 D grader transmission using the original WD flywheel? Thanks for your help
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 6:13pm |
Could it be that a thicker spacer plate was used between the crank and the flywheel? that might explain the lock up when the bolts are tight.
I was thinking something like that.. Especially if you need to move the FLYWHEEL BACK toward the trans to get the STARTER to engage.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 6:19pm |
|
I think pulling the engine and checking the flywheel would be a good plan.. Make sure you can TIGHTEN the bolts and still turn prior to reinstall... I would also ENGAGE the starter and measure how far the gear comes TOWARD the motor and see if that would give you proper engagement to the flywheel........ Last check would be to measure to make sure the trans shaft does not bottom out or hit the flywheel IF you move to backward away from the engine...... a ruler, maybe a depth mike and a couple straight edges would tell you a lot.
Edited by steve(ill) - 07 Apr 2024 at 6:20pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 787
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 10:05pm |
You may well need to pull the engine but I would be trying to learn as much as possible before resorting to that. Pull the starter, look through the starter hole with mirrors or bore scope, take measurements, etc.
Best wishes! 
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8244
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 10:28pm |
Later on they made D's with a 6cyl D17 diesel engine. i would think the grader would be the same as the tractors in that I don't think it's a direct fit swap gas to diesel. The clutch shaft in diesel tractors was longer? or something? so I think that's where you're having trouble.
The 1/2in plate...is it the usual rear plate on a "Buda" style engine? The gas engines don't use a plate to complete the block but the Buda style has the rear seal in that plate and it seals the end of the block. Is that what you are calling a spacer/adapter?
Edited by SteveM C/IL - 07 Apr 2024 at 10:34pm
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 10:35pm |
|
I miss read the original post.. I though you were loosening the FLYWHEEL bolts on the crank because it was hitting the block.. I now understand you are loosening the trans bolts to the engine as the flywheel hits the TRANS case... Still think you have a "SHIM or PLATE" problem , but appears the flywheel needs to move TOWARD the engine to keep it from hitting the trans case when you tighten the TRANS BOLTS...
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Apr 2024 at 7:31pm |
Hi Steve thanks for the input. the problem is getting more complex. The engine is a D15D, not sure what year, that is fitted with 9" clutch flywheel from something? That flywheel is the same design (12.680 OD, 11.75 ID) and tooth count (100) as the original WD 226 gas motor flywheel, although I can not find a part listing for such an animal. This configuration in theory would indicate the flywheel and starter drive would work in the grader. It might, had the trans case not broke at the alignment pins allowing the motor to wobble and bind up. As near as I can measure the real problem is the pilot shaft area of the flywheel. The pilot bushing is non existent and the pilot hole is too small for the input shaft, causing the end of the shaft to contact the bottom of the pilot hole. It is not much maybe 1/16 of an inch but it puts everything in a bind when you tighten the bolts holding the engine to the trans housing. In order to "fix" the problem I will need to weld the case back together, repair the alignment pins and bolt holes, drill out the pilot hole and install a pilot bearing. I will also need to put a 1/4" spacer between the flywheel and the crank flange to properly align the ring gear with the starter drive gear. Thanks
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 787
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Apr 2024 at 8:36pm |
 newbe2 wrote:
... In order to "fix" the problem I will need to weld the case back together, repair the alignment pins and bolt holes, drill out the pilot hole and install a pilot bearing. I will also need to put a 1/4" spacer between the flywheel and the crank flange to properly align the ring gear with the starter drive gear.Thanks |
Thanks for the feedback, it is always nice to find out what the issue was, regardless of how difficult the solution.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Apr 2024 at 8:39pm |
|
YEP... sounds like you did all the CHECKS and came up with the problem... and a workable solution !!
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
TramwayGuy
Orange Level Access
Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Location: Northern NY
Points: 11445
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Apr 2024 at 11:22pm |
|
Since the D15 diesel engine did not exist yet in 1953, it is quite likely that the original engine was a 6-230 engine like a WD45D. It should have been a bolt-up installation.
Curious; what injection pump is on it?
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 13 Apr 2024 at 3:22pm |
|
i think his original engine was a 226 GAS .... and now it has a D15-Diesel
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 13 Apr 2024 at 10:25pm |
The on going story, wait a minute, the only thing "on going" are the problems. The undersized pilot hole forced the crank inward when the engine to trans bolts were tightened, now I need to pull the crank and roll new main bearings in place. Must have happened long time ago. This grader and it problems has been discussed several times on the forum since 2015 and it has yet to run on it's own power. The engine does run, but?.
Is the D15 diesel worth fixing. The bearings gaskets and seals appear to be about $500 plus the time and I still don't know if the grader hydraulics even work. Is the grader worth anything for parts?
thanks
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81307
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 13 Apr 2024 at 10:40pm |
If the engine RUNS, then why do you think it needs new bearings ??
Why not put a 226 gas unit in it ???
How did this all start ? Who put the Diesel in it ? Did it run befor you bought it ? I dont remember the Entire story ???
Edited by steve(ill) - 13 Apr 2024 at 10:42pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 14 Apr 2024 at 5:39pm |
Steve, the story began in 2015 with a question from Kurto and ends in 2024 with finding the reason, three owners later. The story goes that the first person towed the grader to get it started then used it to maintain his property. The 2nd owner did the same until he tired of towing the grader and decided to look for a starter motor, then got tired of looking and sold the grader to the 3rd. the 3rd owner gave up and let the grader sit until parting with it and passing the story on. When the engine quit working, or if it ever did run, is still a mystery. the 3rd or maybe 4th owner is a neighbor of mine and being retired I decided to give it a go. Seemed like a good machine to use on our access roads, little did I know
Long story short, I think the original person who installed the motor quickly discovered the error of installing a D15 diesel engine in a Model D grader, loosened the housing bolts and threw the starter motor away. Made up the story of towing the grader, brushed of the dirt and passed the grader on. That's my opinion and I'm sticken to it.
The error was the model D input shaft did not have the proper clearance, or pilot bushing, necessary to adapt to the D15 diesel flywheel. When the engine was mated to the trans housing and the bolts tightened the housing cracked and the input shaft pushed the flywheel and crank forward wiping out the thrust bearing. That was ok, just loosen the bolts and keep on truckin, that is if the engine actually ran in the first place. End of story, the junk yard where it should have gone in 2015.
Thanks
|
|
ac fleet
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jan 2014
Location: Arrowsmith, ILL
Points: 2320
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15 Apr 2024 at 6:46am |
|
I would put an original GAS motor in it and never look back!!! I DESPISE diesel motors!! Too expensive to run and ALWAYS broke down! Got 3 here with injection pumps blown! Cant work on them !
|
|
http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15 Apr 2024 at 9:53am |
|
Thanks AC fleet we considered that but original AC 226 gas engines are very hard to find in California and very very expensive to ship from the Mid West. Then the question, would the engine run when we got it. There comes a time when old iron just needs to be parked and rust back into the ground.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Apr 2024 at 1:19pm |
This story will never end. Now that I have the D15 diesel out and the oil pan removed I discovered that the crankshaft is broken, something else the original or the 2nd seller failed to disclose.
Anyone know where I might find a good WD45 or D17 4cyl gas engine West of the Rocky Mountains? Preferably in California?
Thanks
|
|
Ray54
Orange Level Access
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Location: Paso Robles, Ca
Points: 4546
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 Apr 2024 at 10:42pm |
Have you tried Myer-Ward tractor parts in Riverdale Calif 800-344-9494
Kern county tractor parts 800-360-8529 I belive they are part of All States tractor parts today Another that may or may not be around any more Wholesale Tractor in Delano Calif
It has been years since I have been to any of them. I used to visit Myer Ward several times a year, but that's over 20 years ago.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Apr 2024 at 8:38am |
Thank you Ray. Contacted Myer-Ward they may have a rebuildable WD45< if they can find it he will let me know. Kern County Tractor is part of All States and All States has a running D17 in their yard back east. I will contact them and see what it would take to have that engine shipped to Kern County. Thanks
|
|
docmirror
Bronze Level
Joined: 28 Apr 2024
Location: TX
Points: 3
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 4:37am |
Hi from the Republic of TX. I just joined and have two model D graders, so I thought I would get involved here.
The D15 engine flywheel is a different beast than came on the D17 diesel, and a different beast from the 226 gas. The D17 diesel engine starter approaches from the engine end, and the 226 gas starter approaches from the trans end. In case anyone cares, the Gleaner E gas engine starter approaches from the trans end too.
This may be one reason why the starter ring will not engage, and why there is a clearance gap plate installed. Not sure if there is a workable solution to the diesel D15 into the model D, but if there is, it's going to be somewhat of a kludge.
I put a 226 in one of my graders from a WD-45. It is important to use a 226 gasser flywheel, and a 10" clutch and PP. If a nine spring pressure plate can be found, this is advisable. The six spring PP may slip under some conditions. The nine spring - will not.
I put a Gleaner E engine in the other model D, and it is fairly close to a D-17 series 1 or 2 engine. Again, critical to use a WD, or WD-45 flywheel, clutch and PP. I don't think the WD gasser flywheel asm would work on a D15 diesel engine, but that is only pure speculation based on the compression of a diesel and the flywheel torque needed to push it around. It might, but could also be why the D15 crankshaft was busted up. Zoiks!
As for finding a gasser engine, I would say go east with a trailer and load up the first running WD-45 you run into. It's a slam-bang swap, just best to get the nine spring PP, and swap the V pulley, and maybe sort out the best way to run an alt. Might be a slight change to the hoses from the water pump, but nothing that would be very drastic. Melt down that D15 diesel, and move on with your life.
|
|
im4racin
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Location: Garrison ND
Points: 936
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 7:06am |
|
All E starters are on engine side of torque plate.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Apr 2024 at 3:34pm |
Thanks docmiror I suspected the flywheel may be part of the problem because of the 9" clutch. The WD, WD45, D17 and the D15D all ran 10" cluthes. Would the 9' clutch/flywheel assembly be from a D15 gas engine? In any case, the outside diameter is the same as the WD45 and had the same 100 tooth ring gear, so the starter did engage and turn the engine. Actually we used the starter to prime the fuel injection system and got the engine running, until we realized something else was wrong and shut it down. The problem appears to be in the pilot shaft support not matching the input shaft of the grader causing the bell housing to crack and the crankshaft to break. I may have attempted to replace the crankshaft weld the housing and go for it thinking everything was fine. Now,I won't bother with the D15 boat anchor. Finding a D17 gas engine will not work either, without replacing the flywheel, so that's out.
Would I be money ahead finding a running gas WD45 tractor and transplanting the engine? If so where would I find one? Thanks
|
|
docmirror
Bronze Level
Joined: 28 Apr 2024
Location: TX
Points: 3
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 12:22am |
Sorry, I misunderstood about the engagement of the starter on the ring. I'm not an expert on all things Allis, I just fiddle with the model D grader. The grader left the factor with a WC, or later on a WD engine. So, attempt to match that profile with the flywheel and the clutch and PP for alignment purposes.
My Gleaner E engine has no mounting flange for a starter. I will offer a picture of the bellhousing flange when I next go to my shop. The casting for the Gleaner is kind of an odd duck. The D-17 should have an 11" clutch and PP, and the starter ring will not engage with the model D starter mounted on the top of the trans. I found that out the hard way and now have a new D-17 flywheel, clutch and PP that I can't use. I suppose one could use a D-17 engine, with the 10" flywheel asm from a WD or WD45. However, there's likely a reason for the 11" asm on the D-17, so changing the flywheel may have a negative effect. I will see how it goes with my Gleaner setup, now that the 11" stuff is not being used.
If it were me, and I wanted to use it, find a running WD or WD-45, and put that engine in the grader. That leaves you with a engine-less tractor unless you could find a running engine alone. Unlikely. I have a bunch of WD engine bits, all jumbled together, but it would cost a fortune to sort it all out and make up a running engine.
|
|
newbe2
Bronze Level
Joined: 16 Jan 2024
Location: California
Points: 33
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Apr 2024 at 9:44pm |
Thanks, that's the problem I am running into. No one seems to have a complete running engine for sale that would include all the parts necessary to install a WD 45 or D17 and chasing parts where I'm at is a loosing battle. Of course, finding a complete WD45 anywhere near where I live is also a loosing battle. Besides this forum, are there any web-sites or advertising papers that deal with Allis Chalmers tractor or parts sales? All States Ag Parts advertised that had both the WD45 and The D17 engine available, but when I called them I was told that ad had not been updated since Feb. 2023 and they had nothing available. Thanks
|
|
docmirror
Bronze Level
Joined: 28 Apr 2024
Location: TX
Points: 3
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2024 at 1:12am |
It's like I said before, get your truck and trailer and go east young man. Here's 2 of them. Says they run. Pick one with the best compression and haul it home.
Look for a WD as well. The grader gears don't need a lot of HP so you can do with a WD just about as well.
|
|
im4racin
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Location: Garrison ND
Points: 936
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2024 at 5:58am |
|
The E casting isn't odd. The only difference is the fuel pump boss is machined to use a fuel pump.
|
|
Ray54
Orange Level Access
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Location: Paso Robles, Ca
Points: 4546
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Apr 2024 at 10:58am |
|
I have no other ideas of where to look that is easy. But as many of those tractors as were used in California there has to be some in the wild that are just sitting. Not knowing how rural you might be. But put a note on the old fashion bulletin board at the feed store or other places rural people will see it.
|
|
