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FB 20 24 forklift help |
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 5:41pm |
Recently picked up this FB 24 20. Not sure about serial number but ID plate has #8792045, and # 1342 on it.
This was purchased as a non running machine, but owner states it was running about 1-2 years ago. Said the "starter quit". Took it to a repair shop and the guy couldn't get repair parts. I got the starter in a box all taken apart. It honestly looks ok minus some ware. It needs a lp tank, and most likely brakes. A new hose from the top cover down to the regulator/vaporizer thing looks brand new. Forgive me if I'm not calling things correctly. A main question I have is the battery looks relatively new. Made on date of 9/20. So could have been idle since then. Nice 6v commercial 3eh battery. Haven't tried to charge it, bit the positive is connected to the positive and negative to negative ground? Thought there were suppose to be POS ground. It has a box on the alternator that says POS Ground 6v. I'm wondering if someone hooked up the battery wrong when they swapped it and it wouldn't work? Would this have fried it if it were hooked up wrong? I'll need any help I can get with this. Not new to mechanical stuff but this will be my first forklift. I'll most likely need to do brakes to some extent. Any help would be appreciated. Edited by spitfire_er - 01 Jan 2024 at 5:43pm |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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starter really does not care if you run 6v or 12v or what is grounded...
the distributor should work on either, but the COIL will be specific to 6v or 12 v .. or have a resistor added if you change to 12v..... polarity of the wires needs to be checked... the "ground" side of the coil goes to the distributor. you have a Generator, not an alternator... it was probably 6v in the beginning, could be 12v now... but the paint makes it look original... Generator may be OK, but the Voltage Regulator box mounted to it needs to be setup for 6 v , or 12 v, and proper ground... by now, it may be fried.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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what "PARTS" did he need for the starter ?? Something major, or just renew ? Can you put it back together and then test on the bench ? HE should at least have cleaned the commutator, straightened up the brush faces, and reassembled for you ? If it is a little weak, you can run it on 12v to get a little more PUSH.
I have a hard time believing "you cant get parts" for the starter ? What is the model and manufacturer ? There should also be a "replacement" that could be used instead of this original..... maybe a 12v unit ? Edited by steve(ill) - 01 Jan 2024 at 6:24pm |
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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The 6v battery is still there, so I'm assuming it's still 6v.
Not sure what parts they were looking for ether. I will clean it up and put the starter back together. I have to do some research to find out what's what for the maker of these parts. I'm wondering if a previous owner hooked up the battery wrong it wouldn't start and they gave up. Assuming it toasted that box, that would also kill the starter too correct? |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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NO... the Generator or Voltage regulator has nothing to do with STARTING the tractor.. All you need is a starter and a Battery / Ignition switch...... What normally gives a "no start" is the cables are BAD, the battery is weak, the starter solenoid is bad, or the key switch is bad..
Jumper the starter on the bench and make sure it will run.. They run SLOW on 6 volts.... Cables have to be VERY GOOD condition, no corrosion, no bad spots... nothing that will cause ANY resistance... as you dont have a LOT of VOLTS to start with... Starter cable runs to the SOLENOID.... Solenoid cable runs to the BATTERY... Make sure both are good shape, shinny, no rust... and that the Solenoid is GOOD. If the starter just BUMPS but will not crank enough to start the engine... Put your 12v battery from the Truck in it and try that.. Dont matter what side is grounded ... you can disconnect the BAT wire on the voltage regulator if you want...
Edited by steve(ill) - 01 Jan 2024 at 8:12pm |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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YEP... that is the ORIGINAL setup from 1950s. ...
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Thanks for all the info Steve. I won't get to it for a few days, but I need to get the starter back together first.
So, does the battery appear to be hooked up correctly? Positive to solenoid to starter, Negative to engine ground? That seems backwards to me, or that's got nothing to do with it? |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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Just opposite of what it was 70 years ago... THe REGULATOR says POSITIVE GROUND so the battery + terminal would go to ground and the NEG battery terminal would go to the solenoid.... solenoid OUt goes to the starter......... but as i said, the starter really dont care... the Generator and regular want the POS GROUND if you get that far.
Starter looks normal for 50- 70 years old.. Lots of grime, rust, and bare wires.. Make sure no bare wires are touching the case unless they are GROUND WIRES... you may have to wrap some tape around a few bare spots... Wash the rotor to get all the oil and grime off of it......... i like to take a pick and scratch the crud between each bar on the commutator to make sure one is not touching the one next to it... You might want to run some steel wool or VERY FINE PAPER over the commutator to get it shinny.... drop of oil on the bearings when going back together. photos post best if 800 x 600 pixel size...( your photos are taller than wide.. so you might try 600 wide x 800 tall size).. You can shrink them prior to down loading, or shrink them in the Down load Page prior to POSTING.
Edited by steve(ill) - 01 Jan 2024 at 9:45pm |
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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I'll have to swap the cables around on the battery then. I'll probably toss the armature in the lathe and clean up the commutator.
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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A guy stopped by today that was a former Allis chalmers mechanic. He pointed out the 12v coil. He looked at the torn apart starter and thought it looked fine minus some tlc.
Was his opinion that it was swapped to 12v at some point. Said it is a continental engine? He said it should be wired correctly as well. Recommended cleaning up the starter, throwing it back together and trying to start it. |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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Continental is probably right... Yes, i could be a 12v starter..but you have a 6v battery , so that does not add up... Not sure how he determined the wire is RIGHT.... Yes, the starter will run with either NEG of POS ground.... The GENERATOR appears to be 6 v and POS ground voltage regulator..
You need to determine if your going to go 6v or 12 v... then the "wire" can be determined to get the generator to work right........ at this point in time, i think you have a 6v battery, 6v starter, 6 v generator and POS ground regulator. Edited by steve(ill) - 03 Jan 2024 at 9:04am |
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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I have gotten the starter clean up commutator turned and put back together. I picked up a new 6v battery and I think I'll put it back together as is as try it.
I need to get a propane tank and figure out what type of hydraulic oil it needs. Anyone know what fluid to use for the hydraulic system? Edited by spitfire_er - 05 Jan 2024 at 2:06pm |
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Hooked it all up and tried it. Got a very faint click. Wasn't even a click, but I heard it. Might check the selonoid tomorrow to see if it's works. Might jump the starter too. Guess I never tested it on the bench.
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Tried again today. Selonoid clicked with the start button. Starter did nothing. Ran jumper to starter and it clicked once and nothing. I might have to double check the starter and pull it off. The other thing is I didn't check to see if the motor was stuck!
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Pulled the plugs today and pretty sure it got done condensation in the engine. Will have to try and break it free. No good spot to turn by hand so I'll need to pull it with my truck.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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couple spoons full of penetrating oil down each plug hole might help.. Setting for several days can also help it soak in...
Hydraulics are nothing special... hydraulic fluid / hytrans / 10wt/ AW32 or 46 ... about anything is OK.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Haven't done much with this, but did get the starter working. Installed it and the solenoid clicks but doesn't engage the starter. Power direct to starter works. But it turned then quickly stopped due to I'm pretty sure it's locked up. My next step may be to pull the head and try and clean as much as I can. I will need a new gasket though and I'm not sure which engine it is, was told it's a continental. Can I make a gasket?
Thinking if I can break it free, which will be a task, I can get it running. |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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At one point in time, the FB20- 24 used a WAUKESHA 4 cylinder engine.. ? -------------------- Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Jan 2024 at 9:02pm |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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obvious difference in head gaskets for each manufacturer...
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Thank you very much. I'll have to double check and order one.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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Cant say for sure... but with the spark plugs on TOP like this... it would lead you to believe it is a FLAT HEAD engine.. So your Continental "guess" could be correct..
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5754 |
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Could be a Conti, a Waukesha, or a Hercules. My gut says that it's around 60ish ci... For Conti, that would be an N56, N62, or Y-69... For WOOKIE, probably an ICK (61ci) If Hercules, either a ZXA(59), ZXB (65ci) orone of it's brethren. LOOKS like a Waukesha ICK, due to the water neck being centrally located, and no distributor through the top of the head... but you'll need to find the engine ID tag to be certain.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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I bet your right Dave.. I was thinking a little BIGGER on the motor, but the little ICK is probably closer to the size it originally came with... and that was the flat head.
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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Where is the ID tag?
I did pull the head today and was able to rock it back and forth in gear and the cylinders seemed to move freely and it all looked good. Guess I'm back to the starter. It is marked "MAK 4023" Spins freely under power when its on the bench. Won't spin on the engine. |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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well............ that narrows it down.. quick GOOGLE search ...
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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Brett... you may want to bar the engine over a couple revolutions to check everything.. With the head off, you might be able to rotate the water pump / fan belt/ etc to check things out......
Not exactly the same, but i have seen auto engines "locked up" that ended up being a frozen alternator bearing, steering pump , air conditioner compressor, belt tensioner...i know you dont have these, but just VERIFY the engine will roll ALL the way around a couple times... Bearings / rods / governor broke / distributor froze / cam shaft stuck...etc... you never know.
Edited by steve(ill) - 30 Jan 2024 at 7:33pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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If it ends up being the starter... and you dont have a local shop.. Call DA MAN !
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spitfire_er
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jan 2024 Location: Mn Points: 21 |
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I did a Google search for that the other day and it came up with nothing. That link is for a wanted ad.
Edited by spitfire_er - 30 Jan 2024 at 8:51pm |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81309 |
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YES... but he says it is an AUTO LITE starter number MAK 4023 and it goes on a WAK ICK engine... thats YOU ! ... not to purchase... just good info.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5754 |
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There's one thing that can cause a flathead to become unwilling to rotate past a certain point- a stuck valve tappet. IF you force it, when the cam tries to push on that tappet, it will risk breaking the camshaft, or the block. When I've found an engine that had that circumstance (and it hadn't been broken yet), spraying penetrant into the tappets and the valve areas, and tapping on each valve with a softwood mallet will usually knock them loose with no damage. roll it over gently by hand, and if you feel resistance, STOP... and look at which valve should move NEXT... But I think your circumstance is just a goin' through of the starter. The ICK is a sweet little motor... especially where it was used as a pony to warm up, then start a big 12+ cylinder... you prime and wrap a string around the ICK's front end (there's no radiator, it simply circulates the main engine's coolant) and pull the string, it burbles to life... walk away for an hour, let it circulate coolant, flow exhaust, and pump oil... and when you come back, set the big engine into starting configuration, wind up the ICK's throttle, pull the clutch out gently, and get the big engine's crank turning... after a few dozen turns, give the big engine some fuel and it chugs to life...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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