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NCAllisnut 
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Shelby NC
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 Topic: D15 Power Steering
Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 6:51am |
Good morning folks, been a while since I posted. I'm stumped and came to the source of Allis knowledge.
My D15 is transferring engine oil to the power steering system. I found my engine oil low and topped it off yesterday. After running the tractor for 30 minutes or so, the front bolster over flowed and the engine was a quart low. I'm baffled as to how this could happen. It doesn't look like there would be enough engine oil around the drive side of the power steering pump for it to be able to suck oil through a bad seal, and I would think a bad seal would be more likely to put the power steering oil into the crankcase.
Anybody have experience with a similar problem? Is there another connection point I am missing? Are rebuild kits available for the power steering pump?
Thanks!
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DSeries4
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 8:52am |
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The pump has a seal to keep engine oil separate from the power steering system. That seal has failed and engine oil is migrating into the PS pump. Easy fix - pull the pump and put a new seal on.
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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Alvin M
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 9:23am |
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I never had the oil go from engine to power steering always the other way
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 3:17pm |
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It's rare, but does happen. Bear in mind that there are FEW repair parts available for those pumps, so get your new seal, carefully pull the gear, dig out the old seal and install the new seal and reassemble.
Edited by DrAllis - 23 Dec 2023 at 3:19pm
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NCAllisnut
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Location: Shelby NC
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 4:21pm |
Thank you both for your replies - I will work on pulling the pump and sourcing a seal.
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 6:38pm |
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So far, the power steering pump is winning. I tried to pull it without removing the radiator, looks like I will have to pull the radiator to get access the suction line and pressure relief line and get those out of the way. I have removed three bolts, pump is still stuck tight to the block.
Is there a secret trick I am missing?
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Mikez
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
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Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 8:45pm |
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Is there a serial number break on which seal
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 2:22pm |
Parts book shows a different pump effective s/n 7871.
Edited by NCAllisnut - 25 Dec 2023 at 2:32pm
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NCAllisnut
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Location: Shelby NC
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Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 2:30pm |
I've got the pump loose, but can't get it out of the block because of the fitting on the steering cylinder. Decided to take a break before getting into that.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 4:13pm |
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I've never fone one before, but it looks like you might have to pull the steering cyl backwards, a little, to clear that fitting... Either that, or loosen the line at both ends, and remove that elbow. HTH
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DrAllis
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Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 5:46pm |
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I'd remove the four frame bolts with a bottle jack under the bellhousing and try to drop the front support and inch or so instead of messing with anything else.
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 6:06pm |
I loosened the steering cylinder and pulled it back a half inch or so, got enough wiggle room to get the pump out of the block that way. It would have been quicker if I had removed the radiator right off the bat, instead of struggling with with poor access and then removing the radiator. I never claimed to be a great mechanic, I can afford to be inefficient I guess.
Thanks for the guidance, and Merry Christmas!
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Mikez
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Posted: 26 Dec 2023 at 9:29pm |
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Do you need seal
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DSeries4
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 7:58am |
 DrAllis wrote:
I'd remove the four frame bolts with a bottle jack under the bellhousing and try to drop the front support and inch or so instead of messing with anything else. |
x2!
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'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 11:46am |
Yep, looking for the seal locally, but the local bearing house is closed for the week.
Is there any reason not to use universal hydraulic fluid in place of type A transmission fluid?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 27 Dec 2023 at 12:17pm |
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Works better on an old worn pump.
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 2:20pm |
Thought I'd give ya'll some closure... Brenda at Sandy Lake Implement shipped me a seal and three new hoses for the cooling system (for $7 postage!), and it arrived Sunday December 31st. I spent the afternoon putting the D15 back together and gave it a test run - all the oils stayed in the appropriate places. I ran it on the finish mower for about and hour on Monday and all fluid levels were good when I finished.
Thanks for the advice!
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desertjoe
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Location: New mexico
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 3:32pm |
Hey NCAllisnut,,,Congraats on your successful repair,,, 
I have a similar problem with my D14 and been looking hard and fast for a Magic Wand as after looking at what has to happen to get the pump out for overhaul is a BIG job,,,,!! Like Dr Allis says to loosen the 4 bolts for the right side rail to get to the 4 bolts on the pump and I was going to have to remove the side rail because of my BIG hands don't fit in that small space  What I don't understand is the engine oil on your D15 migrating from engine to the PS system as the PS system runs at a much higher operating pressure,,,the engine crankcase being at atmospheric pressure,,,,????
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ACinSC
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 4:20pm |
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Happy to hear your D 15 is fixed. Thanks for the update
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tbran
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Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 5:20pm |
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Most hydraulic pumps on open center systems like this have to pull or suck oil from a sump and the majority of the time the pump is just circulating oil under little or no outlet pressure - thus - the loose seal allows pump to pull oil in from around the shaft. IF it ran under pressure all the time the results could be the opposite and be putting hyd fluid in the crank case. I have seen hyd pumps on 100 / 200 series go both ways, just depends on how loose the seal and shaft bushing / bearings are.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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NCAllisnut
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Posted: 04 Jan 2024 at 8:38am |
desertjoe wrote:
Hey NCAllisnut,,,Congraats on your successful repair,,,
I have a similar problem with my D14 and been looking hard and fast for a Magic Wand as after looking at what has to happen to get the pump out for overhaul is a BIG job,,,,!! Like Dr Allis says to loosen the 4 bolts for the right side rail to get to the 4 bolts on the pump and I was going to have to remove the side rail because of my BIG hands don't fit in that small space What I don't understand is the engine oil on your D15 migrating from engine to the PS system as the PS system runs at a much higher operating pressure,,,the engine crankcase being at atmospheric pressure,,,,????
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To remove the right side rail, you'd have to remove the radiator to get to the front bolts. So still a lot of tear down.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 4:20am |
Well,,,I been dreading this repair on my D14 as I have read about how very difficult it is to have access to the hose fittings and just plain lack of room to do so,,,,,. My D14 has been exchanging fluids FROM the PS system TO the engine for the longest, so I have to check fluid levels in engine, drain fluid from engine and refill the PS system, before using tractor. Usually, the fluid in PS reservoir has migrated to the oil pan within an hour or so,,,but never from engine "TO" the PS system. I got very encouraged at how you were able to repair your tractor,,,,you must be lots younger than ole Joe,,,,,  One thing I have decided to do is to order hydraulic hoses with the correct hose ends and lengths to get around the very stiff and hard to manuever the metal hoses and difficult obstructions everyone talks about,,,,?? I am quite surprise that the chinese have not YET offered a replacement pump for these pumps being as they are so very scarce,,!! I also remember reading about a member here that built the necessary brackets to install a hydraulic pump that mounted at the water pump area and were going to offer the Dwgs for said brackets but never saw any offered,,,??
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DrAllis
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 6:42am |
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Desert Joe, why don't you drain the power steering fluid compartment dry (4 quarts) and refill with the same oil you use in the engine?? Then, you can just drain the engine down as needed and refill the power steering with what you drained ?? It will work fine and hurt nothing. I assume a 10W-30 viscosity ??
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desertjoe
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 7:01pm |
Hey Dr, Allis,,,shoot,,that right there would be too easy,,,,!!!! That is a great idea until I can talk the neighbor to volunteer to "Trade" some work like we often do,,,, He's got the smallest hands I've ever seen but does not like to get em dirty,,,, What do you think of the idea of using new Hydraulic flex hoses in lieu of the very stiff fsctory metal hoses?? Thanks for all your help.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 05 Jan 2024 at 10:33pm |
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I guess I never change lines unless I have a failure of a line and then maybe convert to a hose. Hoses often can't be used because of space limitations and if the steel line still works why change it ??
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DiyDave
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 3:47am |
You can also use hybrid lines that are part hose and part line. Take the old line to a hose shop and have them make a bent line, for the tight portion, the rest, hose...
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desertjoe
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 7:08am |
Hey Dr Allis and Dave,,,what I remember when I was doing the almost total rebuilding of the D14,,was the absolutely difficult job with those solid lines in trying to shoehorn them into those tight quarters as I had to bend them slightly to get them OUT,,,,them pre-fit them, take em out bend them a little bit more,,try em again and sometimes over and over,,,and still have to pry em into place and since GOD didn't give us more then two hands it was a PITA,,,,,!! That right there is what I remember,,,, I figure the Farmer that had this tractor before me,, manhandled those metal lines a few times hisself,,,,!! I ordered most of the hydraulic hoses for the backhoe and loader from a company that I have since forgotten their name and they were very reasonable on their prices. with great quality.
Anyone got any suggestions,,??
Edited by desertjoe - 06 Jan 2024 at 7:09am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 8:25am |
Joe, i just rebuilt 2 batwing mowers and bought hoses from these guys.. I dont think they make "special" hoses, but have a good selection of "standard sizes".... you can get pipe or JIC ends on the hoses... They also sell about a zillion different hydraulic fittings, if you need to adapt to a cylinder or valve.. I bought hoses 12- 15 ft long (3/8 inch) and the cost was only like $35.
Edited by steve(ill) - 06 Jan 2024 at 8:27am
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 4:56pm |
desertjoe wrote:
Hey Dr Allis and Dave,,,what I remember when I was doing the almost total rebuilding of the D14,,was the absolutely difficult job with those solid lines in trying to shoehorn them into those tight quarters as I had to bend them slightly to get them OUT,,,,them pre-fit them, take em out bend them a little bit more,,try em again and sometimes over and over,,,and still have to pry em into place and since GOD didn't give us more then two hands it was a PITA,,,,,!! That right there is what I remember,,,, I figure the Farmer that had this tractor before me,, manhandled those metal lines a few times hisself,,,,!! I ordered most of the hydraulic hoses for the backhoe and loader from a company that I have since forgotten their name and they were very reasonable on their prices. with great quality.
Anyone got any suggestions,,??
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Other than surpluscenter, the outfit I use is colliflower, but unfortunately they are an east coast company, no locations near you. My suggestion is to find a farmer, or maybe garbage company or another business that uses hydraulic equipment, and ask them who they use to make custom hoses...
Oh, and be prepared to pay for the privilege of easier installation, my guess would be at least $150/hose...
Edited by DiyDave - 06 Jan 2024 at 5:00pm
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desertjoe
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Posted: 06 Jan 2024 at 8:47pm |
Well,,I'm gonna do like Dr. Allis recommends with using the same oil for PS and engine for the time being until much warmer weather gets here,,,I'll swear,,New Mexico has been getting some extremes in weather this year so far "COLD",,, as in Freezing COLD,,,!! And ole Joe don't get along with freezing COLD for chit,,,,,,
Hey Steve,,that is exactly the company I ordered all the hoses from for the D14 and the had great prices and Fast shipping too!! By the way,,which browser do you use,,,? You always seem to find stuff when others can't,,,,,,
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