| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
DaveKamp 
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: WC axle speed question
Posted: 29 Jun 2023 at 9:23pm |
Okay, so I'm not going 'competition pulling', but rather contemplating a special purpose machine that'll travel mostly on-road. I need to be able to go no faster than 30mph, mostly in the 20-25mph range, and run tall tires with ag treads.
One of my options, is to use a WC rear axle, and drive it with an automotive/light truck engine/trans. My most likely choice would be either a V6 or a small-block V8, carbeurated, with a 4spd automatic transmission using an overdrive. Example would be 4.3L GM with a 700R4 out of say... a Blazer or Astro from the late '80's.
What I see of the numbers, a stock WC in highest ratio (1:1 trans) spinning 1300rpm yields about 9mph. Extrapolate that out to 18mph at 2600rpm, and 3900rpm for 27mph, so 4000 yields 30ish.
If I go with a 700R4, that has a 0.70 final (overdrive) which would allow the engine to drop back a bit and still manage those speeds.
The question I have is... how well will the WC rearend and finals tolerate that speed? Will they self-destruct from lack of lube retention (centrifugal force flinging oil off), or overheat?
This machine will make about a 4 mile trek twice a day. In one direction, it will be running most of that distance on flat, then going down a hill about 3/4 mile long, and losing about 100ft of elevation, and on the return trip, climbing that hill, and running the flat. The most significant torque load will be the pull up the hill, and being on the backside of those gears when engine-braking DOWN the hill.
The load will be a 4000lb boat, on a specialized carrier, so the whole rig will probably be about 8000lbs. I fully expect my hill-climb speed to be less than the flats... if it climbs at 15mph, that's fine, and I'm pretty certain that with a 4.3 V6 and auto trans, it should be just fine, and not even work hard doing it, because I've pulled the load with a Blazer pickup with that same engine/trans, and it could manage it at 40mph.
Will I melt a WC rearend doing that pull? Should I consider any modifications to the WC rearend/finals to manage it?
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4668
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Jun 2023 at 5:51am |
If I was going to attempt it, the first thing I would do is to disassemble the differential and both final drives. If I am not mistaken, the WC/RC/WF differentials took something like 250 weight gear oil and the final drives something like 400 weight gear oil.
If you could completely clean out the housings, seal up any potential leaks and make sure there is adequate venting, then fill the housings with a much better lube (maybe 821 Power Fluid), it would provide much better lubrication.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20534
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Jun 2023 at 6:14am |
|
A WD-45 rear end would be a much better choice with oil in the final drives. My WD-45 goes 17 MPH at 2200 RPM with 14.9 x 28 rear BKT brand tires. Changing to 15.5 x 38 rubber is about a 15% gain in speed for 19.5 MPH. Engine speed of 4,000 RPM would then be 35+ MPH.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Jul 2023 at 8:39pm |
Yeah, and I considered that. The WC's axle housing lends well to close coupling to a transmission output, my intention was to get the engine and transmission as far back as I could, and the WD45's integral transmission wouldn't give me that ability, unless I were to cut a bunch of iron off the front and fit a cardan yoke to the front of the pinion...
And the other fact, that I already HAVE the WC rearend and frame rails.
I'd have no issue with going up to 15.5-38... and if it's possible to make the WC axle spin with oil in the finals (even if it requires some fancy work) it wouldn't be a problem.
A 700R4 has a 0.70 final (overdrive) so it seemed sensible. I won't need V8 power, but having it slightly over 3-cylinders long means a shorter nose, which I'll need for this goofy thing.
I'll need to make it seal and vent properly, I'll be backing it down a boat ramp, and I expect to be at least hub-deep in water at some point... if I wind up being in farther, those seals will be submerged for a short period of time.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20534
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 6:00am |
|
My vision removed the torque tube completely and I make an input shaft retainer and seal for the input shaft. Countershaft needs a cover plate over it to keep the oil in the rear end. While this sounds like a lot of work, the results would be faaaaar better than a WC, which when you submerge those cork axle seals in the water, you'll have water cooled bull gears for the trip back home.
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4668
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 4:48pm |
|
What if you left the WD45 transmission in place and put an automatic transmission between the engine and the tractor transmission?
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20534
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Jul 2023 at 5:08pm |
|
That's my proposal, but I don't think he's interested.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Jul 2023 at 12:43am |
I'm not DISinterested, I'm just trying to work within constraints I have... I have two WCs that are missing significant parts, but have complete rearends.
The reason I would delete the WD45's integral transmission, is length. My intention would be to eliminate the front axle... making this an articulating machine, and the added length increases the length of the machine, and puts lots of weight out over the front. When backed into it's parking space, the machine's complete length needs to be not only short, it needs to be able to turn up against the wall sideways to get in close, so having a long swinging nose is not helpful.
If I cut away the transmission and couple direct to the pinion, it shortens that length, and I wind up with the WD45's better final drive lubrication/sealing circumstance... and I'm all for that. I don't need the additional gearing, the finals and differential R&P will be more than sufficient to make the 2mph crawl up the ramp... and when the auto goes up to overdrive, it should be fine at up to 30mph. I would most likely be between 20 and 25, unless there was a viscous storm coming in, under which case, I would make a hasty hustle to get it (actually, me and her) into the barn.
So the biggest part, is that I don't have a scavengable WD45 rearend lying around...
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20534
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Jul 2023 at 6:00am |
WD-45 final drives could be rotated forward to move the rear wheels centerline closer to the front of the 4-speed transmission mounting face, essentially making the whole thing shorter. What about an older say F-600 two-speed truck rear axle ?? with larger diameter tractor type tires ?? Leave the 2-speed in low range to keep speed down ??
Edited by DrAllis - 04 Jul 2023 at 6:01am
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 04 Jul 2023 at 10:28pm |
Yeah, that's another option if I can nab one. If I do that, I'd just make some appropriate centers for 24" tractor rims, and build a frame and power system to run it, possibly backwards, with a transfer case turning it back the other direction...but when all is done, it will have an Allis-Chalmers hood and radiator shell on it... It will be going 3.5 miles from the launch ramp to my farm, wearing SMV triangles and illumination as an 'implement of husbandry', not a registered highway vehicle. It will be a self-propelled boat mover.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 8:06pm |
 DrAllis wrote:
My vision removed the torque tube completely and I make an input shaft retainer and seal for the input shaft. Countershaft needs a cover plate over it to keep the oil in the rear end. |
So I'm looking at some photos of the inside of the WD transmission, and pages of the service manual. It LOOKS like the WD and WD45 pinion shaft differ only in the splined area of the transmission gears... other than that, it's a shaft, going through a pair of tapered rollers, to the pinion.
So if I empty the housing, cut off the casting right in front of the axle, close off the other holes, then make a seal fixture for the pinion shaft, then fit the pinion with a U-joint, couple my transmission right THERE... is that what you mean? If so, that IS entirely doable, and not really a difficult task (I've done much worse)... And if so, would using a WD donor assembly be different than a WD-45 assembly?
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4668
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 8:10pm |
|
The WD, except for the late 1953 models, had straight cut gears. The straight gears were louder than the helical gears of the late WD's and WD45's, but would probably work for what you are talking about.
|
|
DrAllis
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 20534
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 10:17pm |
|
The late WD and all WD-45's (gas) were 3.3 to 1 ring and pinion while the older WD's were 3.6 to 1. I'm suggesting leaving the rear housing alone, shifting the transmission into 4th (direct) gear and attaching a U-joint to the input shaft. If length is an issue, rotate the final drives forward one hole to move the axle centerline more towards the front of the transmission housing. An input shaft seal has to be made as does the lower shaft bearing hole cover. Both easy to do compared to axing the housing to make it shorter.
|
|
PaulB
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
Points: 4753
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 6:47am |
Sounds like a lot of work to avoid using a pickup (which you most likely already have and pay tags and insurance for) to tote the boat a few miles to the landing. Then again many have too much free time and have been told by the wife to stay out of the house during the day, so the come up with project that will consume a lot of time and accomplish little except get attention of others in the same situation. Like upside down Bs with lots of chrome 
|
|
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 6:08pm |
PaulB wrote:
Sounds like a lot of work to avoid using a pickup (which you most likely already have and pay tags and insurance for) to tote the boat a few miles to the landing. |
That is a projected presumption totally ignorant of context.
I build things that solve problems, save time, make my tasks easier, and hopefully, make money. While my initial build is for ME, NOTHING I do is without options for future, and in this circumstance, I have several friends who own marinas that need a better solution. This is my prototype, and after testing and improvements, if it turns out well, I will be building several significantly larger machines for others.
It just so happens that the combination of components I noted above, is already extant in my realm, and I build EVERYTHING on a budget... so I build with what I have., and what I can acquire at low cost.
I asked questions, because I expected that there was significant experience and understanding of the subject matter, and I don't doubt them one iota. Those that have answered, have been enlightening, and I've taken very serious consideration into what I'll do in several aspects.
I'm open to worthwhile suggestions, and even ideas that seem a bit crazy. Ideas that are crazy, but WORK... are still none the less ideas that work. Thinking 'inside the box' , and predisposing onself to a postures dismissive of something one doesn't understand, is of no productive value.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4668
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 6:43pm |
I, personally, love the challenge of trying to build a "better mousetrap".
I just read an article about Joseph-Armand Bombardier who invented the snowmobile (referenced from someone on this forum). It's guys like him that have changed the world. Maybe Dave's invention will revolutionize marinas!
|
|
DaveKamp
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 5754
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 9:24pm |
|
My college roommate in Lake City, Minnesota hopes so, his establishment needs a faster solution for handling 30-50ft houseboats, cruisers, and sailboats. He's been using a hydraulic articulating trailer, but maneuverability and ground speed have been his two biggest problems. If this works out well, one of the options we've been considering, is cutting off half of one of his Komatsu 430 loaders, and putting the trailer end to the pivot instead.
|
|
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
|
|
