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jaybmiller 
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 Topic: ram1500 alternator
Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 7:14am |
so sson's '14 RAM alternator failed,again. New they're north of 1000 Canucks ! Seems only ONE type fits it, a 240 AMP unit !!! OK, he has the 3L diesel but really 240 AMPS. The design is 'flawed' and no scrapyards have them,no dealers either. Some refurbed units. I finally found a wiring diagram and it has a COMPUTER inside of it , that talks to FOUR others ! Now that 'one size fits all' alternator is also found in Jeeps, and others so..... here's a million buck idea for you guys... Design an 'adapter' to allow ,say a CS130 series alternator to replace the $1000 one. Mechanically a simple task. if (IF !) I had the gumption, I'd scan the LIN based networked computer and design a 'module' to replace the one in the alternator. That module would cost about $5 to $15.
other issue... air cond compressor locked up ,BAD, tore the 'rubber lovejoy' of the E-pulley setup, oh yeah no balls left in the front bearing assy either. THAT compressor is 'special' too....
just some fun on the other side of the fence.....
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 8:15am |
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Other than that how is the truck? What kind of highway mileage does he get?
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Dave H
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 8:26am |
Don, I think his highway mileage might be getting offset a bit. 
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 8:28am |
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2014, 3L ecodiesel, LOUSY mileage when pulling a 20' enclosed trailer, Made in China upper rad hose.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 9:10am |
Jay, no expert here, but "some" of the auto makers are starting to use a similar alternator. It does NOT charge constantly.. Talks to the computer and shuts off during acceleration... Shuts down when the "COMPUTER" thinks it does not need to charge.
I dont think a "NEW" alternator would need to have a computer.. Think of a CS130 that is installed and just charges using its OWN WIRES connected to the battery... Completely seperate from the computer............. What i DONT know is how PISSED the computer will be if it does not see the alternator ? What consequences ? Dont know if it just monitors and shuts off sometimes, or what OTHER consequences could it cause.
DO IT and tell use what happens !!
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PaulB
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 9:12am |
Don't ya just love how computers in vehicle have made everything about them terribly expensive and complicated. Back in the day of mechanical regulators if one fried (which rarely happened) you could get by with an old fashioned heater switch hot wired to the field terminal. When vehicle were as simple as most that had them repairs could be made easily with inexpensive parts and a few simple tools. Now everything is designed to need specialized dealer tools and many other things need to be removed before you even see the part that needs to be replaced. I brought my LAST NEW vehicle about 30 years ago and will NEVER again buy a new vehicle. Anything that would interest me in a vehicle will NOT have a computer controlled anything.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 9:32am |
there are "online" videos of how to mount an EXTERNAL REGULATOR on the original alternator to get it to charge constant and not by the PCM.... That assumes you REGULATOR is bad and the ALTERNATOR is still spinning and good..
From that info, i would assume you could put a SIMILAR Dodge alternator that has the same MOUNTS, and does not use the internal PCM regulator ?? Hopefully when they designed the computer alternator, they BASED it off of a previous model mount / size ?
Edited by steve(ill) - 16 Sep 2022 at 9:35am
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Tbone95
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 9:45am |
 PaulB wrote:
Don't ya just love how computers in vehicle have made everything about them terribly expensive and complicated. Back in the day of mechanical regulators if one fried (which rarely happened) you could get by with an old fashioned heater switch hot wired to the field terminal. When vehicle were as simple as most that had them repairs could be made easily with inexpensive parts and a few simple tools. Now everything is designed to need specialized dealer tools and many other things need to be removed before you even see the part that needs to be replaced. I brought my LAST NEW vehicle about 30 years ago and will NEVER again buy a new vehicle. Anything that would interest me in a vehicle will NOT have a computer controlled anything. |
We have a 30 year old pickup on the farm. Can't use it to haul anything anymore. The last time I hauled a load of hay with it, I drove over a small snow bank to back into the customer's barn, and bent the frame enough I could hardly get the driver's door open. Good luck!!!
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 10:02am |
Just think out loud. I have a 60 mile 1 way trip to work so mileage is key LOL. Been doing it for a long time, have driven cars for all of it, but would like to switch to a truck as its hard for me to get in and out of a car. Is it asking to much for that little eco diesel to get 25MPG hwy? (work trip is all highway). Is there any truck there that will get that?
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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Tbone95
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 10:09am |
DonDittmar wrote:
Just think out loud. I have a 60 mile 1 way trip to work so mileage is key LOL. Been doing it for a long time, have driven cars for all of it, but would like to switch to a truck as its hard for me to get in and out of a car. Is it asking to much for that little eco diesel to get 25MPG hwy? (work trip is all highway). Is there any truck there that will get that?
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I assume you mean 1/2 ton truck (ish)?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 11:42am |
for giggles, found this..
I KNOW the one next door don't get that...
Also it's probably done with a lightweight driver, no passengers, no cargo, no trailer and done on a dyno with cruise control on......NONE of which can happen in the REAL World.
Good idea about the 'test the computer' idea... real easy to crawl underneath and pull the connector off ! I'd like to see what's INSIDE this $1000 alternator...I suspect a coil to disengage the pulley from the rotor to increase MPG when battery is fully charged/ If this is the case, then the truck IS running on the battery only.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 12:27pm |
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im not sure your disengageing the rotor from the pulley... More like OPEN CIRCUIT the signal so no excitation , therefore no output.. Just spinning without load
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Tbone95
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 12:37pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
im not sure your disengageing the rotor from the pulley... More like OPEN CIRCUIT the signal so no excitation , therefore no output.. Just spinning without load |
Would seem the far better way!
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DMiller
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 1:29pm |
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Almost every current design machine out there is that way, Fords, GMs all of the later model junk is going to these types of systems. Multiple Processors all speaking to one another so can shut down everything if a failure. Electrical Controls are now CAN-BUS so NO, cannot just add a regular alternator or bypass this one or make a secondary processor rig make a substyle alternator function. Big Trucks, Heavy Equipment, Motorcycles, Cars and Trucks, ALL same same.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 2:53pm |
well there's some kind of internal e-PTO unit as the pulley freewheels in one direction as the pulley is not solid to the rotor shaft. Sure be nice to find an internal diagram of the unit,kinda curious on how it's supposed to work. I assume they have 2 , 120A alternators inside somehow wired to provide the 240 friggin amps.....
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 3:57pm |
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I would not say it can not be done with an OLD STYLE alternator.. If i take a CS130 alternator and spin it a 1500 rpm and have it connected to a 12 v battery, it puts out 14.8 volts... Dont matter if its a truck, gocart or electric motor.. All you have to do is SPIN IT... You would NOT use the original wire to the PCM.. You would need a signal wire and a power wire, just like on a tractor... or possibly you could use a SINGLE WIRE alternator like the Hot Rod setup.
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 6:16am |
Tbone95 wrote:
DonDittmar wrote:
Just think out loud. I have a 60 mile 1 way trip to work so mileage is key LOL. Been doing it for a long time, have driven cars for all of it, but would like to switch to a truck as its hard for me to get in and out of a car. Is it asking to much for that little eco diesel to get 25MPG hwy? (work trip is all highway). Is there any truck there that will get that?
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I assume you mean 1/2 ton truck (ish)? |
Correct. My drive to work would be one driver,no load,no trailer, no passengers.
2wd unless it’s snows deep……which happens here in N Michigan
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 6:49am |
>steve
spin the pulley one way, rotor spins.... can feel it AND see the cooling fins move
spin it the other, rotor does NOT spin, easy to spin and zero fin movement
'they've' gone 'hightech' probably to get the son of the cousin of the brother of the boss in engineering a job making a part of this overly complicated part...... From a design viewpoint ,I can see it'd be similar to the air conditioning pump/clutch system. Today they modulate(turn on/off) the AC pump as required to keep cabin cool.
What is unknown is what does the 'main brain(the Master) send to the alternator computer(the Slave) and vice versa ? I'm assuming the Master asks 'are you OK?' and if the Slave says 'NO', then the Master puts the engine into 'Limp mode'. When in Limp, you better get home PDQ.....
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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Tbone95
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 7:37am |
DonDittmar wrote:
Tbone95 wrote:
DonDittmar wrote:
Just think out loud. I have a 60 mile 1 way trip to work so mileage is key LOL. Been doing it for a long time, have driven cars for all of it, but would like to switch to a truck as its hard for me to get in and out of a car. Is it asking to much for that little eco diesel to get 25MPG hwy? (work trip is all highway). Is there any truck there that will get that?
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I assume you mean 1/2 ton truck (ish)? |
Correct. My drive to work would be one driver,no load,no trailer, no passengers.
2wd unless it’s snows deep……which happens here in N Michigan |
Well, they show a Silverado with the right equipment list that’s supposed to be between 25 and 30, varies a little from article to article. Then of course your mileage may vary. Not at all popular with the buy ‘Merican crowd, and long sad story, but my wife has been driving a Mazda CX 5 the last several years. It has been perfectly reliable, does amazing in snow and ice, gets the mileage you want, and is much easier to get in and out of than a car. However, I assume there are things besides work commute that you’d like a truck for, and it doesn’t do those things very well.
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DMiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 7:55am |
jaybmiller wrote:
>steve
spin the pulley one way, rotor spins.... can feel it AND see the cooling fins move
spin it the other, rotor does NOT spin, easy to spin and zero fin movement
'they've' gone 'hightech' probably to get the son of the cousin of the brother of the boss in engineering a job making a part of this overly complicated part...... From a design viewpoint ,I can see it'd be similar to the air conditioning pump/clutch system. Today they modulate(turn on/off) the AC pump as required to keep cabin cool.
What is unknown is what does the 'main brain(the Master) send to the alternator computer(the Slave) and vice versa ? I'm assuming the Master asks 'are you OK?' and if the Slave says 'NO', then the Master puts the engine into 'Limp mode'. When in Limp, you better get home PDQ.....
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That is the base issue with trying to convert CAN Bus systems. All the Processors speak across same wires, to and from each other relaying data, a chip does not receive the correct data it shuts systems off. The wiring in CAN Bus carries signals as much as power, most of the systems have a related power supply where the smaller wiring from cab controls just signal inputs or outputs demands. Something as simple as a Turn Signal controller is just a communications device, tells a relay to operate and stop to turn lamps on and off, are no Flasher Cans anymore. Lamp Control Module in our Exploder is close to $400, operates all the lighting functions where if lose ONE, say the Dash Light Color Control the module is Junk. No simple fixes anymore.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 8:21am |
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Still not sure... Your alternator regulator "CRAPS OUT" and will not charge... OK. thats a problem.. Sends bad signal to the PCM......... Still do not see it SHUTTING down the truck or going to LIMP MODE.... Worst case is you get an IDIOT LIGHT... If i was trying it, i would not MODIFY the original alter... I would ELIMINATE it, install the old style and put a hot wire on it..... FORGET the PCM... it might not like it, but i doubt it will shut down the truck due to a bad alternator.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 8:27am |
This off the internet... You CAN go into limp mode with a bad alternator, but it is due to LOW VOLTAGE to equip... So a BAD ALTER will not immediately effect the truck... Until the VOLTAGE drops and causes the problem.... --------------------
Yes, one of the most common causes for a car to enter limp mode is due to a bad alternator. When an alternator goes out, it can cause the voltage in your vehicle’s electrical system to drop below what is needed by many electronic components. This includes things like headlights and windshield wipers which require 12 volts instead of 14, and the engine control unit which needs 14 volts. When these components don’t get enough voltage to function, they will enter limp mode until one or more of them is replaced with a working item. If your alternator has gone bad, it may be easy to identify as you’ll likely see an illuminated check engine light on your dashboard. |
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 8:47am |
DMiller wrote:
Almost every current design machine out there is that way, Fords, GMs all of the later model junk is going to these types of systems. Multiple Processors all speaking to one another so can shut down everything if a failure. Electrical Controls are now CAN-BUS so NO, cannot just add a regular alternator or bypass this one or make a secondary processor rig make a substyle alternator function. Big Trucks, Heavy Equipment, Motorcycles, Cars and Trucks, ALL same same. |
I am retired from my job as an electronics engineer/tech; I last worked for a company that designed, built, and sold industrial encoders worldwide. We had many engineers with masters degrees doing the design work; the latest trend is toward absolute encoders using various communications protocols, CAN being one of them. I can attest that hacking into an existing system to do something as simple as using a 'dumb' alternator without causing the system to have a hissy fit is no small task. Not that a talented hacker couldn't do it, but it requires knowledge and access to information that vehicle makers don't hand out readily. Not to mention equipment to modify chips, etc. This is why I drive an early 1980's Ford pickup with a 300 six engine and manual 4-speed.
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desertjoe
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 9:25am |
Very interesting thread,,,but,,,but,,that don't mean I'm gonna buy one of them Hi Falooting new trks either,,!! ALTHO,,,I agree with ole Steve that the ECM only needs to "see" the 14 volts and does not care WHERE it is coming from. That would be my first plan of attack if I had one fail, there would be a unit going in there that cannot talk to the ecm. Just 1 hot wire an one to excite the windings,,, I'm betting that ole Jay is gonna figure it out soon,,,,!!
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 9:48am |
well, we will not know for sure until SOMEBODY tries it... I NOMINATE JAY to be the TEST GUINEA PIG !! 
Cant hurt, its NOT HIS TRUCK !!
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DMiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 10:29am |
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Sorry Joe but no longer works that way, is not as simple as running a Hot wire anymore.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 11:09am |
Well good news is the alternator is NOT a CANbus device ! It's on the LINbus !! It's far simpler to hack into(BTDT...on a swimming pool robot...)They have a separate computer to monitor the +12 of the alternator, it's own fused feed from alternator, again using the LINbus so it really makes me wonder just WHAT the Alternator computer is sending to the master ?
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Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 12:44pm |
GO JAY GO !!! 
charge the battery up real good , pull plug off the alternator, and see what happens ?
what if you JUMP the truck from another vehicle so it is getting 14.5 v ... unplug alternator... what happens ??
inquiring minds want to know !
Edited by steve(ill) - 17 Sep 2022 at 12:46pm
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DMiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 1:17pm |
Just WHY, in ANY sense of sensibility do Auto need this crap??
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 17 Sep 2022 at 3:28pm |
WHY ? To make a bucket load of MONEY !!!! EVERYONE who has ANYTHING to do with car electronics has made a figgin killing on stuffing unnecessary 'things' into cars...
Do we need 99.44% of the electronics ? NO !
Take the 'LIN based Battery voltage monitoring module. It's 100% NOT needed. Every 'ECM (Engine Control Module') HAS the internals to KNOW what the battery voltage is(it's required for other things like 'sensors' and 'math' ). Add a few lines of code and you could have 'Limp Home Warning' pin on a connector for virtually free.. No, need MORE wires, another 'computer', LOTS more code, MORE connectors, MORE people on the assy line, have the modules made, shipped, tested, verified,....you can see a whole friggin industry built around ONE unnecessary part....
Just because you CAN use something doesn't MEAN you NEED to use it.... ' KISS ' WORKS for 99.44% of everything, IF you let it.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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