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Joey Farmer 
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 Topic: Fiat Alice 10c dozer
Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 9:08pm |
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I have a Fiat Alice 10c dozer I am having problems with the brake and steering clutches they will hold going forward but not going in reverse does anyone have any idea on how to fix this
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Feb 2021 at 9:32pm |
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why do you think it is the steering clutchs and not the REVERSE CLUTCH Pack in the transmission ?
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 6:11am |
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I am really not sure what the problem may be I was looking for some suggestions I've not had this machine very long any help would be greatly appreciated
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 8:34am |
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It has been over 30 years since i was around one... But the transmission has a forward clutch, reverse clutch, and then 1-2-3 gear clutches. If the tractor moves forward, but not reverse, i would not think the steering clutch would be the first place to look. I would assume there is some trouble with the reverse clutch.... You might take off the transmission filter , drain the oil into a bucket, and dump that last cup on some news paper and look for contaminatiion ( clutch material). You could see if there are any spuds to check pressure and compare the forward and reverse engage pressures... It is possible there is some leak off or no full stroke of the levers / valve , but that would be rare. Look at the linkage pins and valves and see that everything is MOVING as it should and no SLOP in the pins....... After that, i would assume the reverse clutch has failed... When you examine the transmission oil for CRUD, smell it to see if it has burned. ..... and check the OIL LEVEL first thing.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 9:43am |
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Thanks so much Steve for the information it is nice talking to someone that has knowledge of these old dozers the machine moves forward and reverse perfect it's just the brakes work going forward but not in reverse sorry if I may have not explained it right
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 9:51am |
YEP.......... thats a different story.. IF no brakes in reverse, then that is the problem.. When you pull the steering clutch does it disengage that side ? If so, then your CLUTCH is OK... just a brake problem... Dont say the age of machine.. I dont remember if they had hand clutch/ brake levers or always had the brake on foot pedals... hard to believe it has anything to do with valve or pump or oil, if it works in FWD, but not in reverse... Have you tried adjusting the brake clearance ? I dont remember the procedure, but most tractors had an external screw to adjust clearances.
Im hoping someone who knows specifics about the FIAT 10C will jump in and help.. I was just trying to get more info from you.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 9:56am |
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Thanks for the help yes I will look when I get home it does have handles up top and pedals on the floor best I remember those levers run to the back of the machine and there are valves on top of the rear end housing when I first got the machine it had been sitting up for about 5 years we had to put hydraulic fluid in the rear end housing and the brakes then started working once we got the lines primed up
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DonBC
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Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 11:37am |
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Find someone that is familiar with crawler controls to check it out. Don't try and guess what is wrong. You can cause some expensive damage if you don't know how to operate a crawler.
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 4:16am |
Plain FA 10 owner here, with shop manual that doesn't cover 10C. It has been a very effective ranch dozer. But punting on that they didn't totally redesign the animal -
Can you turn? That will tell you if the steering clutches are releasing.
If the brakes are getting pressure you should feel the pedal pulsate when it is hard down. They pull oil for steering brakes and clutches from the bevel case through a filter on the LHS front of the bevel case under your left foot under the floor plate.
Why the brakes might not work in reverse would be a mystery but maybe if loose they wrap forward and not in reverse? They are wet brakes.
I can copy brake adjustment for you if needed. I'd also recommend finding a service manual as they do some "Different but that doesn't mean it is crazy" things.
We've been into the finals of ours and know for sure that the dead axles are bigger in a 10C - via wrong part. Not sure what else.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 24 Feb 2021 at 11:33am |
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Thank you so much for the help I'll check that when I get home this afternoon I can turn going forward left or right but going in reverse it won't but like you said it may be loose I may just need to adjust them once again thank you so much for the help
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 25 Feb 2021 at 5:22am |
I got out the book. The adjusting screw comes out the top of the cover over the brake/clutch compartment out of a small cover on the top of it somewhat front of centre.
Adjusting is tighten the adjuster to 57.8 ft lbs and then back off 2 turns. There is an index mark on the head.
Ours has only needed one adjustment in around 3000 hours so far.
Just in case they did change things from FA 10 to FA 10C - any problems identifying yell and I'll scan that section and you can compare.
After adjustment pedal free travel should be 90 - 110 mm. If not adjust brake power pushrod - another scan if you need it
Edited by Ian Beale - 25 Feb 2021 at 5:25am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 25 Feb 2021 at 8:46am |
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thats 3 -1/2 to 4-1/4 inch free travel on the pedals.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:05pm |
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Hey guys I got the brakes fixed thanks for the help I am having a issue with the torque converter I think getting hot I have cleaned the three filters that is connected to the transmission and the torque converter and replace them but the drive shaft will turn like it should as long as the gear shifter is not engaged once you engage it it will near about stop I noticed the oil gauges for the transmission is heating up very quickly any suggestions on what to look for
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:07pm |
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I usually dozer this afternoon and noticed the transmission works better in second gear whether it was in reverse or forward but like I said previously the trance transmission oil gauges were in the red
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:40pm |
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Mine is a 10C
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 27 Mar 2021 at 7:53pm |
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heating up trans oil is normally the torque converter slipping, or the brakes adjusted too tight and dragging.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 8:19am |
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Is they're an adjustment for the converter I know the brakes are not dragging it will heat up just sitting there warming up I wasn't sure if there was something else to look for I changed the fluid in the transmission does that also service the torque converter or is there a different place to service that
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 4:45pm |
Joey, it has been a LONG TIME for me and i dont have a service manual around. Hopefully Ian or someone else will respond to you.. Generically, the torque converter and the transmission normally use the same oil. There should be a suction screen to the pump and a pressure filter after the pump... seems like you have cleaned them..
Oil should not get hot just setting there warming up.. You would have to have excess slipping in the converter or a clutch pack dragging in the transmission. I doubt there is any adjustments for the torque converter.. All it does is transfer power thru its fluid coupling..
You say it runs better in second gear ( i assume better than first ), but still gets hot. Possibly one clutch is dragging internal ( lets say 2nd) and when you put it in 1st gear, you actually have 1st engaged and 2nd dragging... When you put it in second is "seems" to run better , but some slippage is making the oil hot...
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Mar 2021 at 5:02pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 4:47pm |
when you changed the transmission oil, was the crud /clutch material in the oil ?
I assume the transmission gauge is working properly and really IS HOT ? There should be a trans oil cooler that works off antifreeze system.. You have proper antifreeze level and engine runs normal range ?
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Mar 2021 at 4:53pm
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 28 Mar 2021 at 5:00pm |
filters that is connected to the transmission and the torque converter and replace them but the drive shaft will turn like it should as long as the gear shifter is not engaged once you engage it it will near about stop I noticed the oil gauges for the transmission is heating up very quickly....
when your setting at warm up, the engine is spinning the converter and the driveshaft, and the transmission is NOT engage ( no oil for clutch lockup)...oil should not get hot... When you put it in GEAR, you lockup the transmission shaft to the final drives.. The drive shaft should STOP if the tractor is not moving.. The motor is running so the torque converter will have 100% slip.. Input is motor speed, output is LOCKED at zero rpm... The oil will start to heat up fast in this condition... If the drive shaft is MOVING and the tractor is NOT MOVING.. then you transmission clutches are SLIPPING and that is causing the heat up while your running in operation.
Edited by steve(ill) - 28 Mar 2021 at 5:01pm
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 29 Mar 2021 at 2:00pm |
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Thanks guys for the information I do appreciate it the radiator is full of antifreeze I noticed on the left side of the engine there is a canister it looks like water runs through it maybe cooling the oil I did not change this or clean it I wasn't sure if I was supposed to the filters that I cleaned were all mesh cartridges one was in the torque converter housing the other one was in front of the transmission and then there was one beside the transmission all of those have been cleaned
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 30 Mar 2021 at 3:26am |
Joey
I've never seen the converter temp gauge on ours get excited even pushing mud.
That is the cooler on the lhs rear of the engine - never opened that either.
On ours there is a gauze screen in the plumbing under the converter housing - might have to drop the converter guard to get at it
When you engage a gear how long does it take to heat up and is that at idle? At idle I'd expect the shaft not to turn when in gear, So if it is stationary and it heats up sounds like the converter?
When it heats is that the converter housing, the transmission housing or both? And ? have you checked the gauge?
There is a double pump on the back bottom of the converter housing which does feed and scavenge for the converter
And the really honest answer is that I've never had anything like this so might not be much use. Give me some more clues and I might be able to try our usual source of wisdom.
Later - from RTFM - "normal gearbox oil pressure on dash gauge, the machine doesn't pull in certain gears and the oil warms up. Worn or warped plates in corresponding speed clutch. Renew."
But while the floor plate is out check the U-joints in the transmission shaft, The comment from our supplier when i ordered new cross kits was "Just as well you found that. If that lets go it usually takes out the front case of the transmission." And there are two sizes of bearing caps so measure if you ever need them.
Edited by Ian Beale - 30 Mar 2021 at 3:31am
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 8:48am |
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Good morning guys once again thank you for all the help I have about narrowed it down to I have a Flow restriction and the reason I think this is because how quick the oil is heating up also when I go to put it in gear I can put it in gear it'll move a little bit and then it stops I can put it back in neutral let it build back up it'll move a little farther and then it'll stop if I leave it sitting there in gear it'll eventually will move and go on what's your advice on this I think it has to be a Flow restriction before the fluid gets to the torque converter
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 5:47pm |
On the basis that there is a lot more oil in the gearbox which ought to take longer to heat my gut feeling would agree - and I could be wrong!
Have you had a look at that screen in the plumbing under the converter? Though I remember it as being a fairly coarse gauze.
At least that is where it is on 10/10B.
Or maybe the feed oil pump? But I think that does gearbox oil pressure too, so if you've got pressure there it shouldn't be. I'll have a look at the flow chart.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 6:52pm |
Or maybe the feed oil pump? But I think that does gearbox oil pressure too, so if you've got pressure there it shouldn't be. I'll have a look at the flow chart.
I dont know how many pressure taps there are... But having a few numbers on clutch engagement, converter inlet, filter psi... might help narrow it down. Thats the first thing the Dealer would do to pin point an area.
--pump worn --filter plugged --seal ring broken in converter --clutch damage in transmission.
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 26 Jul 2021 at 7:06am |
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Good morning gentlemen it's been a while since I've been on here with you guys Hope you all are doing well I did find a small screen in the converter housing I took it out it did have a small bit of trash but not enough to cause it to completely quit flowing I did notice on the bottom of the transmission in the front of the case there looks to be a fl at plate that can be removed attached to it is a large hydraulic line I was wondering is there a hydraulic filter inside the transmission case itself
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 1:36am |
On a 10/10B there are 3 filters
A gauze one in the scavenge pump inlet line
A washable steel wool element one on the feed pump inlet line (on the front of the transmission)
Another steel wool one on the back of the converter housing.
Been a while since I was in there and the floor is in at the moment. And my book doesn't cover 10C's. That plate and hose doesn't sound familiar - the filter is on the rhs front of the trans 0n ours.
Maybe check a parts manual at Minnpar where they likely have one on line. They do
Will take a while to load
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 8:56am |
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Thank you I'll look at that today I appreciate the information I found the one on the back of the torque converter housing but I wasn't sure if there were any more
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Ian Beale
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Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 4:44pm |
There is a mention in an item at Red Power that General Gear in Idaho has service manuals on line - worth a look I'd reckon but I don't have a direct link
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Joey Farmer
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Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 5:57pm |
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Thank you for all the help I certainly do appreciate it
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