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Plumbing Xperts?

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modirt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 10:09am
Having trouble with a hot water circulation pump. Keep getting pinhole leaks downstream of the pump. Appears to be galvanic corrosion, with pump as the source of the problem.
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Tbone95 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:03am
What are the materials of the pump and of the pipes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:20am
Sequence of events.......

Short copper riser from hot water tank
Grundfos circulation pump installed, with rubber flanges to isolate cast body pump from copper water lines...


Then original install was short section of copper pipes that transition to PVC lines before hot water line leaves utility closet.

It is this short length (3 feet) of copper pipe downstream of pump that keep developing the pin holes. One after another. Plumber replaces copper with PEX.....pin hole then develops in next closest copper. Three holes fixed so far......at that point, I turned pump off and no more leaks since.

Plumber was at a loss......."I'm a plumber, not an scientist. I can keep fixing it, but can't tell you why it keeps happening".


Edited by modirt - 12 Nov 2020 at 11:21am
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modirt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:23am
Pump might have some kind of short and bleeding a low voltage......only thing I can think of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:27am
I'd be asking Grundfos what to do !!!
Seems like it's 'galvanic corrosion' ( aka 'battery effect') due to 2 dissimilar metals.
Obviously  BEFORE the pump was installed , no issues, so , yup, call Grundfos PDQ !!
Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:35am
Thing is, the water is also a conductor, so the rubber flanges don't make the connection isolated. My hot water circulator is brass body, copper pipes, so not that much potential. You have galvanic potential with Fe to yellow metal, with the water as an electrolyte. A short in the pump could add to your problems, but even without it there's an issue.    

Quick check for a pump electrical issue, is it or could it be connect to a GFCI outlet for power?

On my pumps for the wood boiler, if a seal starts to go it won't run on GFCI anymore.

Edited by Tbone95 - 12 Nov 2020 at 11:38am
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modirt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 11:35am
We bought house 5 years ago.......pump was here then......not sure when installed. But developed 3 pin holes in 3 years before I turned it off.

Would leave it like that, but takes long time (30 to 45 seconds) to get hot water to kitchen sink.....distance of about 12 feet. Lines run in or under slab foundation. I'm getting heat from spousal unit on lack of hot water. 

Just looked and ALL copper pipes and fittings downstream of pump are now green and white from exterior corrosion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 12:29pm
Hot water will cause copper piping to fail before cold water. Second, in a recirculating system the friction wears out piping quickly. Third and most important is the copper piping MUST be de-burred as it will cause cavitation in the system which also accelerates wear.
After all the copper has been replaced with new, I would look into reducing the flow rate to a minimum setting and if practical add a timer to      circulate during high use times of the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 12:47pm
YEA... that pump puts out 6 GPM... You need one about 10 x smaller... If you were moving a quart or 1/2 gallon a minute, that would be all you need.... Your lucky to get 1 GPM out of a faucet, and your moving 6 x that much water !!  FRICTION .

One way to do it is to have a check valve in your 3/4 inch line with a TEE on each side. Put a VERY SMALL pump between the TEES so it pumps a quart a minute thru the system, and can not flow backward.
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 12:51pm
I have heard of cavitation erosion, and that may be plausible, except the first fitting downstream of the pump is a 90* copper L fitting......holes always developed downstream of that....in the straight run copper lines. Not in the L. If that is because the walls of the L fitting are thicker, that might explain it too.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 1:02pm
Fitting is thicker. But turbulence it creates affects the piping downstream. Would also recommend type L copper as it is thicker than M
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 1:24pm
This is the actual pump, and condition of things as of moments ago...... Sorry the image is upside down......not sure how to rotate it to make it readable.

I'm assuming the screw is a flow control.......which way to cut flow back to nothing?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 1:30pm
BTW, current pin hole is in short riser between pump flange and L.....the nasty looking little green section.....

That is with a water softener too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 1:52pm

OK, if I got this right, that is up to a 17 gpm pump with cast iron body?

What could possibly go wrong?

So what would be an suitable replacement with bronze body?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 2:27pm
Not entirely sure which way to turn for slowest setting. You should be be able to hear the difference from one extreme to the other. Grundfos has low volume recirc pumps for this application. Check model number UP10-16. Also check out Laing E1. They’re imported but I have installed a number of them with no issues. They have a timer attachment available that is 24hr programmable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 2:51pm
their site says it's 'discontinued'.....but is a 3 speed pump though HOW to change baffles me( no documentation). sad thing is I think there's one in the garage 'somewhere'...
I agree though a new 'smart' pump, low flow and one that learns your pattern would be  better. heck my Well pump is only rated for maybe 6 GPM...... every dang 'head' is maybe 2.5 gpm, kitchn faucet SUX.... try filling a pot......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 3:57pm
The data plate shows amp/watt rating. The screwdriver slot changes the route through the windings. This controls motor speed vs closing a valve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 3:58pm
On a hunch, I looked and I have my description backwards. What you are looking at on the top of the pump is the return line. Verified that by turning pump on, opened isolation valves and got cold water. You could feel the flow and lines were vibrating......so moving a LOT of water!

Return water then flows through pump, into bottom of the tank through drain outlet......and water to faucets leaves top of tank. That way any flow to faucets is not interrupted as cold makeup water enters to replace it.

Not sure what that does to the high flow cavitation theory.


Edited by modirt - 12 Nov 2020 at 4:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 4:45pm
It boils down to this:
Flowing water erodes metal pipe.
Anything that affects smooth flow(burrs,bends, tees, etc.) causes turbulence. Turbulence accelerates erosion. Doesn’t matter which side of the pump your on. To that end the will relate a story. Several years ago as service plumber I was called out to a single story motel with 60 rooms. As can imagine that is a long way for hot water to travel from mechanical room to end unit. In the span of a week was called five times to repair a leak in the recirc line. Each time a different location in the same run. It was a straight run. Point is, it just wears out the pipe in relatively short period of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 5:19pm
At this point, that is my biggest concern of all. House built on a slab (really bad idea), with plumbing buried in or under slab.

If this is causing leaks at the water heater, where else is it leaking or about to?

Only possible saving grace is the rest of it might be pvc pipe. Copper return line switches to PVC when it enters utility closet.

Not sure if I want to take a chance on a leak I can't get to. In other words, leave pump off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 5:47pm
Since your copper is all shot, anyway, replace with pex, its cheaper, and don't corrode.  JMNO!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 5:50pm
this...
House built on a slab (really bad idea), with plumbing buried in or under slab.

is really scary !!! copper in concrete ??? yeesh...
I'd be planning how to run PEX , 100% if possible....
or move....

Jay
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 5:55pm
I did in-laws house trailer in PEX to get away from the steel-copper piping in the crawl space.. Took paneling off a couple walls to install some... then ran across the ceiling in  bathrooms and laundry room... built a FAKE wood beam to cover the tubes afterward... Worked great.... 45 years old so was a good time to install new faucets  / shower head / etc.

Edited by steve(ill) - 12 Nov 2020 at 5:56pm
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 5:56pm
So long as NO air entrainment and low flow erosion in any water line will be minimal and Take LOADS of time, will generally take a point of a turn to burn thru.  Parents house had a recirc pump, pump died twice in thirty pus years living there, NO Piping destruction.  Iron or Steel flanges, copper fittings, Plumber here used Sweat Solder Ends for installing our pump(Brass), NON ISSUE in over five years running, lost a timer once so far.

Is a Ecocirc ITT unit.    Sis in law stays a few weekends a year, enjoys that timer and temp setting side program keep her shower at seconds of delivery time to hot and at 50' from water heater.  Did add insulation wrap to the piping after installed as AC time would chill the utility corridor area of our basement and make the pump extended run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim NH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 6:18pm
Looks like from the picture of the 45' fitting, you have high sodium water. Going to a reverse osmosis system will solve your problems. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote plummerscarin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2020 at 7:26pm
R.O. treated water should not be be run through metal piping
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim NH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2020 at 7:00am
I agree RO water should not be used copper pipe system. I didn't read the postings close enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kansas99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2020 at 7:36am
Dumb question why shouldn't RO water be ran through copper pipe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2020 at 7:46am
K99, because the more purified the water, the more it attacks metals and absorbs minerals. RO is extremely pure, and begins to dissolve any metal it comes in contact with and therefore copper would not last long at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote modirt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2020 at 8:48am
Originally posted by jaybmiller jaybmiller wrote:

this...
House built on a slab (really bad idea), with plumbing buried in or under slab.

is really scary !!! copper in concrete ??? yeesh...
I'd be planning how to run PEX , 100% if possible....
or move....

Jay


Good news on this front. Went on a quest and discovered that all risers I can get to coming up through the slab are in fact PEX......hot water lines even wrapped in insulation. So probably safe to conclude the hot water circulation loops are also PEX, so probably OK to replace high flow pump with low flow and be back in business.

Comments on sodium........water district is known for having hard water..........so everyone has water softeners. Mine is a Kinetico. It goes through a lot of salt. About 40# per month. My question has always been where does the salt go? Flush cycle water goes into the drains. Does that mean my septic system gets salt.....or what had been NaCl that is now tied up as something else?

Lines to faucets that you might drink from.......kitchen and line to ice maker.....remain hard water. That suggests to me a lot of the salt (sodium) must end up in the water domestic use water? Source of sodium?




Edited by modirt - 13 Nov 2020 at 8:49am
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