Straight Stick plus Gleaner power

Trying to confuse, gather information, and learn all at the same time, as usual! For those following, you can pick up on page 2.

 Regards,

 Chris

Carl(NWWI) wrote: I’ve done 38” rubber, WD pistons in a gleaner block, bigger carb, pulling cam and open rpm and I still can’t win. Idk if the tractors I pull against are more built then what everyone else pulls against or what. I’ve never understood the hype of the gleaner engine in the WD’s, Unless my cam isn’t done correctly but sure doesn’t perform like everyone says they do.

The WD/WD45 hitch set up just doesn't doesn't work too well for pulling a weight transfer sled.The Oliver and Cockshutt tractors have the advantage in that regard plus they are easier to upgrade the HP.

I have seen similar things in the pulls. Neighbor has a WD tractor that he bought and it was "set up" for pulling and had been pulled years ago. Has a few items removed so that he can move 150 lbs of weight around. He is in the 3500 lb class. He wins or places consistently. No idea what was done to the engine or drive line. (still has hand clutch) He has the old style Firestone tires with full tread. That engine has plenty of power. 

My grandson with his old bone stock WD is usually close to him. sometimes beats him on the right track conditions. We seen a BIG improvement in Nics tractor when we went to the Crop Max 14.9-28 rears when pulling on a wet track. His is a old worn WD engine that still runs good. On a power track you can see the difference in the two tractors at the end of the pull. 

I think Dr Allis summarized it very well. Track conditions, tire type, and weight balancing, are probably the first things to consider. Track conditions you dont have much control over. But sometimes you can pick a spot on the track and get a little more distance/ traction.

Weight balancing seems to be somewhat of a art. I am pretty new to that part of the game. I see other tractors that are real front end light. 

Some tractors seem to do well even if the front wheels are off the ground most of pull.

I know this changes the hitch height retaliative to the sled too. 

Is there a magic balancing combo for the old WD's? 

We usually get beat by some red tractors, or maybe a Oliver.

As you can see I have way more questions than answers. 

Typing it in here and making it happen on the track are worlds apart! 

Hoping we can gain a little bit to make these old Allis tractors move up a little in the classes. 

I will try to share items that I learn and maybe it will help others. 

The good news we (our small pulling group of orange tractor owners) are, having fun, learning about the game,  getting more competitive.

Keep in mind I don't have a tractor specifically for this hobby yet! Have just been skirting around the edges with some old Allis tractors I drug home.

Regards,

 Chris

 Thanks for the suggestion on the WC puller option. I have heard that they are lighter, and I could see that being an advantage too. Do you see the unstyled or the styled versions.

I know some of them have hand brakes and I know nothing about them, except that looks like you need to grow a third arm!

We dont see a lot of WC's pull around here all summer. Maybe 1 or 2 of them.

This thread may not get a lot of traction being outside of the pulling forum? But up to this point the tone has been acceptable to me! Some times  these threads get more competitive than actual pulling. If that happens I am done talking about this WD topic. 

Its only a big boy game which can get out of hand.

If this thread needs to move there I understand.

I do appreciate the positive comments! 

Regards,

Chris

Folks,

Chris, compression test gauges are not that expensive. For the amount of these things you have/work on, you should have one. They will reveal a lot! My propane engine varied from 175 to 190 psi. When I tore it down the low cylinder was scored. The engine ran good, though it started very hard.

Hope you get her home, time for a new project thread!

Competitions involve many variables.  In any sort of competition, the ONE item that determines wholly the success of a competetor, is EXPERIENCE.

Champion bicyclist Eddie Merckx, when asked what the secret to being a successful competetive cyclist, his answer was:

"Ride lots".

I'll start by noting that I am not a 'competition tractor puller'.  I don't pull sleds often.  I pull trees, vehicles, an occasional building... large rocks.  I rarely get 'good track' conditions, I don't have luxury of putting it on a dyno, running special tires, or adjusting weight... and I've had some bad pulls, and I've had some good ones... and I've broken parts, and had engine problems.  I've also spent WAY too much time and money working on machines, but there's a bunch of other guys here that I'm certain will admit to doing much worse.  I've committed even worse sin... I've been the enabler of guys who spent more time and money... and for some strange reason, I feel guilty, but not bad, about being participle to their substantial investment in what potentially becomes a very, very expensive hobby, in both money, time, and of course... social impact.   I'm not without experience in other competition circumstances... I fortunately avoided competition bass fishing, and narrowly escaped becoming 'professional' in cycling and music.  The fortunate result, is that I can still enjoy these things as avocational.

There are many factors involved in any competition, and tractor pulling is one of them.  First and foremost of ANY competition, is the RULES.  It doesn't matter what you do, if you don't know the rules, and you aren't absolutely pushing every limit of every edge of every rule in the book, you won't win.  Why?  Because those who compete against you, and beat you, ARE.

For example, let's say your rulebook says that 'farm stock' means that any parts you use, need to be OEM parts... so you're using OEM parts.  The guy you're running against, beats you every time.  If you take apart your engine, you find factory stock parts for that tractor.  Take apart HIS, and you find that he's got connecting rods that are significantly longer, came from a totally different engine.  Yep, but they're 'factory stock'.  The RULES didn't SAY that they had to come from the SAME MODEL...  but using the longer rod, with a stock piston, increased his compression ratio by 2 whole points, and now his 34hp engine is at 9:1...

Understanding PHYSICS is extremely important.  I can't begin to count how many guys argue with me, convinced that running a smaller-diameter drive tire will yield 'more pulling power'...  when fifteen minutes at a county fair track will demonstrate otherwise... and when I point them to the Wismer-Luth white paper on agricutural traction prediction, they refuse to take time to even SKIM it, and the myriad of similar studies that followed.  Robert and Harold's work on traction prediction was all based on empirical data... thousands of tests, repeated over and over, to determine what factors generated the greatest amount of effective drawbar pull, and unlike what happens at a competition tractor pull, Robert and Harold PUBLISHED it, put it right out in the open... and their deconstruction of the mechanical process of tractive efort development proves very clearly how the tire diameter, cross section, driven, and undriven tire load and size affect the developed drawbar pull.  Then, they went one step further, and identified how SLIP RATE and additional horsepower related to increase in drawbar force... meaning, once the tire is spinning, how much more horsepower input (increased slip) yields a given amount of addition drawbar force.  With that data, you can enter in all the variables for your tractor, your setup, and your horsepower, and you WILL get a very accurate prediction of what your tractor's limits of drawbar force WILL BE... and if you're not meeting it, you can be certain that something you've plugged in, ain't being met.

As for the Gleaner engine, I think people misunderstand the horsepower numbers.  There may be subtile differences between the tractor, combine, and power unit versions of any engine, but the biggest difference, is in how they're 'set up' for particular service. The tractor engine has a wide-range variable governor... it will govern from just above idle, to some high-idle limit.  The combine engine is NOT set up that way.  It is either at low idle, or high idle, or working load.  it is NOT intended to govern at say... half-speed... because it is set up specifically for a machine who's input speeds NEED to fall in a certain window in order to operate properly.  Take into account that horsepower ratings of a tractor come in several different flavors, and the combine, or any power-unit application, are TOTALLY different, it's clearly a function of comparing apples, to oranges, to my dirty socks.  DrAllis is right in that the advertised number, and under some dyno circumstance may show an additional 6hp, it doesn't mean anything at a track.

For better understanding of why, consider a G226 power unit driving a 40kw AC generator.  The governor has ONE operating speed...  1800rpm... driving a 4-pole generator, that yields 60hz.  The governor is set to run at 1850rpm (that's 62hz) at 'high idle' (meaning, full speed, no load) and when under absolute max full load, the governor is at WFO at 1785rpm (59.5hz).  IF the generator is producing the full 40kw at WFO@1785rpm, you could substantiate that the engine is developing 53.64 flywheel horsepower, or 157.82 ft-lbs at the flywheel...

Do the same for the same engine, running a 30kw 1200rpm (3 pole) generator:  62hz is 1240rpm high idle, and 1190rpm at full load/WFO...  that comes out to 40.23hp at 1190rpm for 177.55 ft-lbs at the flywheel...

WHICH ENGINE is more powerful?  Answer is... neither...  AND... the calculations above, are all wrong, because at NO LOAD, it takes a certain amount of engine horsepower JUST TO RUN.  It requires power to spin the cooling fan, even when the engine isn't hot.  It requires power to pump oil through the engine... and it requires power to develop enough excitation energy to generate and regulate electricity.

Now let's say the G226 develops 166ft-lbs at 1800rpm, for 57hp.  We yank this engine, work it over, and find out that when we spin it up to say... 4100rpm, it develops  79 ft-lbs, for total of 62hp...

Does the fact that it's output of 62hp @ 4100rpm for 79 ft-lbs is a more competetive result than 57hp at 1800rpm for 155 ft-lbs?   Not necessarily.  You'd need the added drag of lower gearing in order to put that 4100rpm in proper accordance with ground speed... in the end, your wheel horsepower (due to added parasitic losses of gearing, windage, etc) come out LESS.

The difference, is in how they're set up, and how they're rated.  Nobody with a brain would buy a generator based on engine FLYWHEEL HORSEPOWER, and you certainly wouldn't get good performance running that generator engine's governor (or carbeuration, or ignition advance, or camshaft, intake, and exhaust) on a tractor.

Rarely recognized fact- when an engine is set up for a generator, it is set up so that peak torque occurs AT 60hz, and falls off INCREDIBLY at 62hz.  Why?  Because it helps make the engine both reactive (to load change) and stable AT the same time.  If an engine can't breathe outside it's governed range, it WON'T go there.

So keep that all in mind when comparing engines.

Brief update: Currently on track for tractor viewing October 6th. Will try to remember to take some pictures. The wife is not too keen on another project! I don't really blame her! I think she is catching on to my "projects" and how they use some of our resources, and morph into these juygunjious episodes of me whining and sniveling about tractor stuff! It will be OK. Whats the worst that could happen? You can fill in the blanks!:)

I kind of like Dave's approach that pulling against yourself and continuous improvement are some of the only things we have control of. 

At this time I dont have any plans. One step at a time. Get it home will be the first thing. 

Short term goal after that would be to try to pull the WD in the antique pull on October 12th. Not sure If I will do much to it prior to the last pull of the season?

 It might become the snow plow tractor for the winter?

 Here is another shot of the WD. Seems to have most of the original equipment still attached, which for me is a new concept!:

Current owner did say the brakes are real sketchy. One side may work a little. That should help when if get down to the loading part!

Regards,

 Chris