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Llss clasd

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Allisd21 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 7:28pm
Thinking about getting into pulling again and am really liking llss class. Here are the options and wonder what is the biggest hp advantage. 180 or 190 rear-end. Class is 6200 lbs. Diesel or alcohol. 315ci twin 3x4 tube. 410 single intercooler and turbo w map. 470 single turbo no map. Or alcohol 370 single turbo smooth bore. Engine choices. 301 or 426 ac. 5.9 Cummins. Or dt466. What is the best combo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 7:44pm
It depends how much of a "true Allis guy" you are. Tell me a Cummins or DT466 is cheaper to build for this class and I will prove you wrong. They might be easier to find off the shelf go fast parts for - but not less expensive.

I have read the proposed national rules. I think it's a good idea and in general they are on the right track. With that said (the most important performance rule of all)the turbocharger rules for the diesels are confusing at best. In this case I am not a fan of slotted turbos from the aspect of having a tech person sharp enough to be able to police the rule effectively. If left as is the 470 cube engine with a 3.4 smooth bore inlet would be my choice. Long story short, any of the diesel engine options should have the same(ambient)turbo period. That's the only way it will give each competitor the same opportunity.

I am not apposed to a component chassis for some of the reasons you mentioned, but from what the rules say it has to be an ag chassis. With that said I have heard one of the Top alky burners at Gordy has a hollowed out driveline with a truck axle in it. Where does that fit in?? Again, another thing that should be cleared up.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 12 Jan 2017 at 8:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allisd21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 8:13pm
Correct me if I am wrong but the way I read the rules you can use any rear-end and engine combo as long as it was made are added as a replacement. Thus using a 436 in a 190 rear-end. That is the way I understood them. I am waiting to see what outlaw adds. This is just my thoughts but I like the idea of component chassis. Most would be totally against this but if you do most of the work you self they are more reliable and cheaper. Especially if you are looking at trying to buy a d21 ag chasis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 8:51pm
You may be right, but the engine / chassis combinations is also a bit fuzzy. I always got below average scores on my Iowa State basic skills test in "reading comprehension" so maybe its just me. Below is a copy and past from the actual rules sheet:





Weight 

Tractor weight will be 6200lbs. 50lb variance will be given at the scales

Engine 

Engine crankcase, block, and cylinder head must be of same manufacturer, or factory replacement and can be used in any agricultural transmission and rear end that used that brand of engine, or through its company mergers used that brand of engine.

Example:

CNH=                   Agco
Case                   Oliver
Farmall               Moline
International          White
Case IH               Massey Ferguson
Ford                   AC
New Holland            Deutz


Must be OEM engine block, no Billet steel or aluminum blocks. Engine must match brand of tractor. Rear of engine must be in stock location for make and model of rear end and transmission housing, with a maximum tolerance of a 1” adapter plate. A 1% tolerance will be given on cubic inch limitations to allow for normal engine wear.

No V-8 Engines permitted.
No Overhead cams allowed.





So on one hand they say you can run another engine (ie. Cummins or whatever) in another chassis and on the other they say it must match the brand of the driveline or be a factory replacement. I have never had anyone "in the know" be able to explain to me that a Cummins (for example) is a factory replacement for a 301 Allis. I doubt you can go to your local Agco dealer and buy a kit and a IH 436 that is a direct fit for a model 190. Same goes for what appears to be an endless combination of engines and chassis that could be constructed. So then the questions becomes what is a factory replacement? Another thing missing is rule that sates there can be no decubing of an engine I.E. getting a 414 IH to 410 inches. That in my mind is a big deal that should be mentioned.

I would think by the rules written that a 426 would be just as acceptable as a 5.9 Cummins in a 180 or 190, but who knows.

I have seen this a million times when rules are written. The authors whos intentions are good are not specific enough to say exactly what's legal and what isn't. That would take a lot of time and thinking of ALL possibilities that could be. It would also eliminate bickering down the road. Each model tractor should be listed with what engine combos are legal for said model / chassis.

I am not opposed to a component chassis for some of the reasons you mentioned. The rules say it has to be an ag chassis so I don't think components would be allowed. I heard that one of the top alky burners at Gordy has a hollowed out driveline with a truck axle installed. Where does that fit in? Again, something that should be clarified.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 12 Jan 2017 at 8:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mrgoodwrench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 9:30pm
Seems to me that a cummins could be used with a 180/190 rear because there was a white tractor built with a cummins and Ac and white are both agco family members. At least that is hormi read it.
There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 9:47pm
I think a less confusing method would be to list all of the engines and turbo / intercooler combinations that are acceptable in this class no matter the chassis. Lets face it, that's where this is heading.

ORRRR, go back to the old NTPA rule that says the block and crankshaft have to match the driveline it was made to fit into. One or the other. That is a good rule that was forgotten long ago. It will never happen.   

It's been my experience that rules must be well thought out prior to being clearly written particularly in the areas of performance like the engine and especially (in this case)turbo combinations. Poorly written rules are the start of a failing effort to do something good.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 12 Jan 2017 at 9:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allisd21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 9:57pm
Thanks for the help I mist typed and mental health 426 not 436 earlier. I know a lot of talk on another board was to go lighter. I think drop to 5500 lbs and that would of made it more of a driver's class just my opinion. Looking forward to getting back into it. Also 470 is a lot of cubes. Wonder how many 4010s will have 466s.and also 560s with 466 and 4000fords with 468. I don't think any of those tractors were made with that big of engines
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 10:07pm
I think a D21 with a lot of lightweight work done with 470 inches and a 3.4 inlet turbo would be tough as hell if done right. The driveline would be (almost) indestructible. Getting one down to 6200 lbs. and making it go down the track right would be no small feat.

Badger State will be running with some good alky burners starting this summer. That will be a very insightful experience. Badger State and ECI have some of the best running LLSS diesels in the country in my opinion.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2017 at 11:30pm
Component chassis is a huge mistake in this class, it will wreck it. Put whatever you want inside the housings but keep it tractor appearing. You can run a pretty good variation of motors in the allis, they're all going to cost relatively the same by the time you are making competitive horsepower. I would take the 180 over the 190 chassis, just on the gear ratio aspect and weight placement, d21 carries to much weight to the rear, and you're running some really hacked up parts to make the weight. For what it's worth, we're decubing a 426 to the 415 mark so we can run an intercooler. If they would give the 301 another 50 ci or so with the twin chargers I would have probably went that route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 8:46am
The current proposed rules allow you to make a 301 to 360 cubes and run twins with no intercooler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 8:57am
360 and twins still need a cooler to be competitive in my opinion, I'd take 315 with the cooler over 360 without it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 9:22am
I would too. A good intercooler is equivalent about 60 cubic inches in this class. 315 twin cooled, 360 twin no cooler, 410 single cooled or 470 without a cooler would all run very close with the same turbo if equally tuned.

Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 13 Jan 2017 at 9:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 9:38am
I just read the proposed rules, their turbo rules for diesels are a disaster, the committee that put these together are all alcohol pullers. I for one hope wisconsin here doesnt go for this set of rules.

Edited by Larry W. - 13 Jan 2017 at 9:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 10:11am
You are absolutely correct. Their overall idea is fine but they needed to talk with some LLSS pullers from Wisconsin and Iowa and other places where the diesels run hard. Maybe they were invited to the party but didn't respond - not sure.

The issue as you probably know is that the diesels from down south couldn't compete with the alky burners so they gave them as much as a 3.4 inch turbo inlet advantage. That is a massive advantage. If the same advantage was given to really good diesel LLSS tractors the alkys would be behind and then they would want more. Where does it end?

Time will tell but the good diesels and good alkys need to run together at several different pulls over the course of 2 - 3 years together a good handle on it. Badger State is an excellent place to try this. I would say leave everything at a 3 inch smooth bore compressor for year one at least. If the diesels can't compete then change the inlet to a 3.150" smooth bore and try that or give a weight advantage. Much easier to give it as needed than try to take it away after its given. Cost less money too.

If Gordyville told us anything it would suggest that a good 3 inch smooth bore diesels will compete with the best alky burners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larry W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 10:41am
Yes I cant understand why they're proposing the biggest diesel motor gets a bigger charger then the rest, if anything it's the 315 motor that should have gotten the 3.4! I think it needs to stay at 3" for now, I'm fine with the diesels having the maf cover chargers, but let's see what happens for now. At the cost of the top of the line turbos, you can't bounce the rules around every year!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 11:20am
The idea of a Light Limited Super Stock class is very interesting for many that wish to get back (or start) into that kind of pulling. myself being one of them. After reading the above proposals I see that things are already out of hand and will keep most everyone away from participating.  The Key word for the class being LIMITED.  With the talk of allowing just about any 6 cylinder that could be stuffed into whatever you want to built for a chassis at the running weight, doesn't to me appear to have much for limits. This is very much what happened in the NTPA many years ago.  
   In my opinion a class of no more than 5500 pounds, under 350 CID, with an A-pump, a single turbo (of a size to be determined), intercooled and/or water injection would be in the ballpark of something that would fly. Also the requirement that all chassis components be of the make and model of the desired tractor is necessary. 
   Today's "Component" tractors are just Turbocharged modifieds.
  There is what's called a LLSS class here locally in the interstate club at 7700 pounds and is just a group of wannabes that don't have the money to run with the 9500 pound tractors. The weight is about the only limit


Edited by PaulB - 14 Jan 2017 at 11:26am
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 2:05pm
I agree. When it takes $15 - 20,000 for a top notch fuel system (diesel) and turbocharger plus $4000.00 for a clutch and flywheel plus $10,000.00 plus for rear wheels and tires (which is pretty much the same for any color - and that's just getting started) it's not really that limited any more. The only real "limit" is the size of the turbocharger. The more obvious limit is the size of ones wallet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mf440 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2017 at 3:08pm
The rules that they came up with are very close to what we run in western new york. other than the 3.4 turbo we had just 3 inch till now, they said it will b looked at after this year and reevaluate. The rules work very well you can send a ton of $$$ if you want or do your homework and make what ever you have work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acllss puller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 8:00pm
190 with a cummins can be turn key for 25000$ if you do some of the fabricating yourself. $700 fuel pump $500 in fuel lines $1500 in valves and excessories turbo 2500 at most, clutch flywheel 4000 , 2500 for overdrive kit from Eugene ( use 180 don't need if you have real good tracks )
190/180 426 punched to 470 with 3x4 or decubed to 410 with cooler (decubing is allowed ) 3500-5500 for charger,6000$ for p7100 pump 1400 Simpson water inject plus pistons sleeves @3500 .injectors $2500 for any of these setups
315 or 360 twins is 6-7000$ for best turbos say a pair of s400s from fvp

My cummins in a 190 used factory ac rear engine plate x2 ; factory ac bell housing as well as factory ac starter in stock location pretty simple build
Buddy building 426 in 190 chassis with 3x4
I ran twins at 301 for years, tired of sticking money into junk heads lol. Was very competitive with the twins but a lot of maintenance and upkeep, yearly rebuilds required to run on the jagged edge.
426 bored or decube with cooler way to go or cummins alky is lighter with more movable weight. Be interested to know if possible to deuce a 426 to 370 and put on alky????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acllss puller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 8:07pm
Larry do agree 3.4 bit much but at least at this pt the exhaust is restricted now on these turbos and intake down go 3.4 from 3.6 with no forward facing slots anymore either . Do believe most are not going to this 3.4 rule . Believe it will be 3.0 straight across board when dust all clears after this year. Are we going to see you in new York again this year?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acllss puller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 9:14pm
Oem head for engine being used too! No Hamilton heads on cummmins , no hyper heads on 466 no billet, Indy or remakes. Oem for the engine u choose wanna be true ac man 426 is the way to go just build a light chassis you want 800 lbs min to play with from my experience . Way better head than the 301 , not even close . Like Larrys plan!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaulB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 10:31am
I have seen many very impressive lightweight pulling vehicles and many events lately. Although for them to be called "LIMITED" is a stretch of the imagination in any form. What we are seeing are modifieds that sometimes blow smoke. I cant even see that "component" chassis vehicles can even be considered to be superstock tractors, on many of them the sheetmetal is the only "tractor" parts on the entire vehicle. Then many of them only use sheetmetal that resembles what a "tractor" looks like.
    For the class to truly be  "Light Limited Super Stock" it should go back to what the 5000 pound Superstock class was 40-45 years ago (with some modern updates). The engine must be the factory installed engine with all the factory drivetrain housings all the way through to the rear wheels. Also a single turbo should be a MUST.
    I'm not intending to disparage any of the impressive vehicles that are pulling, but these do not fit with the title of the class. It is very easy to be a "big fish in a little pond" when no one else is allowed in. Many of the places I've pulled at throughout the years have rules that have been written around someone's specific vehicle that really can't win against OPEN class tractors. This class really is just the same as we see in the heavyweight class, only at a lighter weight.   


Edited by PaulB - 21 Jan 2017 at 10:33am
If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acllss puller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2017 at 11:52pm
Let's see ls are 150000 @ 2500 plus horse component chassis, llss is 1200-1350 horse limited cubes limited turbo limited tires and cost 15-25000 , or buy for 40 turn key . We have limited rpm tractors making what ls made in the 70s- 80s. Further more at 5000 with today's hp who's gonna keep em down in control , unless we are talking old time hp too! There are other classes to choose from with less hp for that. Most are moving forward. Our club has dif levels to achieve this so people can build a chassis and keep moving forward at their pace Lpf-Lps-llss all same chassis base . At 5000lbs there were no roll cages, tie bars ,barely fenders ect. Just saying !!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O.P.S. Heads Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2017 at 9:09am
The national proposed LLSS rules don't allow component chassis so no need discussing that any further.

I doubt $15 - 25,000 will build a competitive LLSS tractor in todays world. The top alky and diesel tractors at Gordville this year were $15,000 X 10 in money spent on each rig. Not saying you have to spend that much to compete, but to be at that level it takes more than a $25,000 investment.

Paul has a point. The LLSS class is to me should be what the light super class was 30 or so years ago from the standpoint of what sized tractor that competes in the class. Most of the 5000 lb. super tractors from years gone by were all factory rated at less than 80 HP. It was intended to be a “different class” with smaller tractors – something different to watch. It was not intended to have D 21’s, 1066’s, or tractors of that size that were factory rated at 100 plus HP. If you like a lot of different brands / color in the class, the lightweight class always provided that. I think the LLSS class also does a good job at that so far. In the light super class the weight kept going up and a 505 cube limit was adopted. With the current set of rules used in the NTPA light super class there is no sense in bringing a “small” tractor to the dance. The newer rules eliminated many from being able to compete. Now there are only a handful of top quality light super tractors across the country. You can almost guess who will win before the class gets started. The NTPA did this to itself.

That is one of the reasons why I don’t care for the 470 cube rule in the newly proposed national LLSS class. 410 might be too much also. Not so much from a performance standpoint – but as the chance to allow bigger tractors (and engines) to compete in a class that it my mind is made for smaller tractors. If people really work hard at the 470 diesels, it could possibly be a repeat of what happened to the light super stock class although the 3 inch turbo inlet is a great equalizer. Time will tell. The other reason is that there is a ton of 466 sized classes around the country. What could be the need for another one?

The decubing rule is a bad idea in my mind as well and I have always been against it for the same reasons stated above in the allowance of bigger tractors (or engines) in a small tractor class. With that said, the engine in a John Deere 4010 with a factory block and cylinder head is much larger in physical size than most of the rest of the tractors in that factory HP bracket. (I would guess the same length or longer than a 400 series IH or a 426 Allis) So the Deere’s do have an advantage over most of the others. Decubing a 414 or 426 from that aspect is really no different than using a 404 Deere engine. But we all pick our poison as far as what brand we choose to compete with. I still will never think decubing is a good plan or rule to allow. When a 414 IH or 404 Deere engine or a 426 Allis can be made to 370 in size on alky there will be a problem.





Edited by O.P.S. Heads - 22 Jan 2017 at 9:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allisd21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2017 at 5:46pm
I think you are right. A decubels big engine on alcohol would be nasty. Did some figuring and if you take a 426 down to 360 you would go to 4.25 stroke. You could really turn the daylights out of that. And yes someone will do it if the allow decubing. Another this is most pullers don't want to move up to the next class. As long as there winning there fine as soon as they start getting beat they complain everyone is cheating. With the way technology is advancing you have to update yearly. If you don't you will always be behind. I like the 5500lb weight. This might keep some of the big motors out do to weight. Pluss it becomes a driver class.
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