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E cars and battery life

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jaybmiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: E cars and battery life
    Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 6:10am
We all know batteries hate the cold, finally someone has posted some numbers !!

AAA recently studied the effects of cold on EV range and found that when temperatures dropped to 20°F, EV range dropped an average of 41% compared to range measured at 75°F.

Heat also can influence driving range. AAA’s research found that when outside temperature heats up to 95°F and air conditioning is used inside the vehicle, driving range decreases by 17%.

here's a link to article...

I've read that 'they' have to 'warm up' the batteries before driving ! Hmmm..so MORE energy is wasted and never calcukated or reported in the 'MPG' claims.....
 just food for thought

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Stan IL&TN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stan IL&TN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 6:33am
Small steps. I'm sure down the road 50 or 75 years everyone will be driving them and gasoline will be pretty much gone with most fuel production going into diesel. Still waiting for my Mr. Fusion myself.🙄
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 7:34am
The day may come where one would fit my needs, but that day is certainly not here yet. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chaskaduo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 10:25am
Wood gassing is already showing up everywhere again. A lot of the guys make charcoal (using the excess heat for other chores) and use that to power engines. A lot also just make a self contained wood gas unit. And you know they'll be jailing you if you do that before long. (Tree Abuse)
 


Edited by chaskaduo - 21 Feb 2019 at 10:30am
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tadams(OH) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 1:43pm
at the price of them I doubt that on fixed income being retired I will ever see it.
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DMiller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 2:51pm
Me either. Has been talk of Amazon Electric Delivery trucks by Tesla in the next year, just trying to develop the infrastructure to feed them, no alternate truck yards with electrical service to do so just yet. Also awaiting the Autonomous Driving structure to expand so no need for drivers.

Postman at our old house had a Prius Hybrid, liked it sorta OK, peddled it at five years so did not get hooked on battery change. One co-worker bought one for his wife as was really cheap($3100) so when paid $7800 to replace the aged battery was a little shocked but car still running some three years later so for $3330 a year to own not bad. Expects it to make it at least two more based on battery life indications. She drives 22 miles(RT) to work and dropping off picking up kids daily.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Stan IL&TN Stan IL&TN wrote:

Small steps. I'm sure down the road 50 or 75 years everyone will be driving them and gasoline will be pretty much gone with most fuel production going into diesel. Still waiting for my Mr. Fusion myself.🙄

WinkYou don't believe Ms Cortez has it all figured out, Confused how could you not believe.ConfusedConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dakota Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 4:37pm
Fargo airport had a Gem electric city car for one year as a pilot loaner. It worked great the first summer they got rid of it about half way thru winter. One of the guys that worked with me had a Prius he liked it and his wife loved it. But I had to stop and pick him up in the winter his wife would take his F 150 to work and the Prius was not good in the snow. I have never seen a electric car up here and very few hybrids. I wonder what the range would be at -35. I know my suburban had enough electricity for one start if it dosent start within 10 sec just give up plug it in and put the charger on it. With 2 1000 amp AGMs in my diesel you get two attempts and your done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 4:52pm
When my brother was given a Ford Hybrid to test drive(he gets EVERY vehicle under the sun to write about...), he took the missus to Florida for 2 weeks...dang good 'road test' !! He was shocked to here the gas engine start up though, maybe in PA ? too dang cold... then in FLA, where it was sunny and hot, engine came on AGAIN ! too hot.... One of those 'read the manual' and it MIGHT say WHY it came on...
Without an extended battery warranty plan, expect 4-5 winters IF you're in a 'temperate' zone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 8:04pm
Batteries, being chemical reaction devices, will NEVER magically overcome TEMPERATURE.

They might get 'better', but consider this:

When you had a cordless drill that ran on nickel-cadmium rechargeables, it would work in extreme cold and hot... just not as well as if ambient temps were moderate.  As we progressed to NiMH, we got more power from the same package size, but it became important for the charger to keep a close eye on the battery whilst charging, so it didn't exceed the chemical reaction's 'safe' range.  As we moved to Lithium-Ion, we got even more, however, it was not just charging temperature, but operating temperature that needed limitation, and not just in high, but also low temperature, which is why my cordless tools are totally worthless on a jobsite unless it's betwee 40F and 78F... they cannot be expected to operate OR CHARGE unless within that range.

Electric vehicles are no different in all respects... energy density, charging and discharging rates- all part of the challenge.  Add on the fact that besides being extremely expensive, chemical storage batteries are large, and extremely heavy... take your lightweight economy car, remove it's 400lbs of aluminum engine and gasoline tank, and put 3000lbs of batteries and 300lbs of electric motors...  yeah.

Cold is a double-thick club-  not only is the battery very reluctant to respond to charge/discharge rate demands, there's a substantial additional load-  the heating resistors... that take away all that precious charge without moving an additional foot down the road.

The science is simple:  Take a 85lb battery, like the Trojan T-1275 Plus and measure the energy available... it's a 1.99kWh battery...  that's 1990w for one hour.  742w = 1hp... so that battery is good for... 2.68hp for 1 hour, then it's done.  That's 85/2.68 = 31lbs for ONE HORSEPOWER HOUR of energy.

Now consider one gallon of gasoline... that's 112,000btu/hr, or 43hp for 1 hour, per GALLON... that's 231 cubic inches, and it weighs about 6lbs.

but comparing apples-to-apples... we're dealing with an 85lb battery that's 13" x 7.25" x 10.75"... occupies 1013 cubic inches.... so...

In the same WEIGHT that the 2.68hp/hr BATTERY is...
  You could carry 85/6= 14.16 Gallons... that's 609 HORSEPOWER HOURS of gasoline.

Now, in the same VOLUME as that 1013 cubic inches of battery space, you can carry 1013/231= 3.16 gallons of gasoline... that's 43*3.16 = 135 hp/Hr of energy.

Now let's do the same exercise backwards.

My son's Honda Accord holds about 14 GALLONS.  That's 14*6 = 84lbs, and it takes up 14*231 = 3234 cubic inches of space... and the total fuel energy is 43*14 = 602hp/hr.

The Honda Accord gets about 26mpg between city and highway driving.  Nurse it on the interstate, and it'll break 30... with range of about 350 miles.

To make that 350 mile range, it will take 224 of the aforementioned batteries...
--Or a group of TEN, recharged 23 times...


Now... each time you stop to recharge, it will take you NOT LESS THAN 8 hours to get a full recharge of the battery array.

The fuel pump providing about 5 gallons per minute, It takes less than three minutes to fully recharge the Honda Accord's fuel tank.

Now... if this doesn't put it into perspective... keep in mind that...

10 85lb batteries is 850lbs.  Not only does this considerably increase the rolling load on tires, it means much more rolling resistance, and it requires considerably MORE energy to climb a hill, because it's carrying almost a half-ton of batteries.  Yes, you can use regenerative dynamic braking coming downhill to apply a little 'recharge' to the batteries, but the batteries cannot be charged nearly as rapidly as the car is decending and braking.

The gasoline automobile's fuel tank GETS LIGHTER as you empty it... that means it becomes more efficient as you empty the tank.  Batteries don't change much from charged to discharged.

Electric cars are neat for places where you're WELL WITHIN the range of a half-charge, where you don't have substantial heating or cooling requirements, where you have a place to park it each night with a charger.

Yeah, internal combustion is wasteful.  During wintertime, we recover a whole bunch of that heat by warming up the passenger compartment.  In the summertime, we lose efficiency because we're air-conditioning the vehicle, but that puts equal (actually greater) hurt on the electric car, because the internal-combustion engine is already spinning it's prime mover, adding an accessory compressor load is not a significant change in it's scheme.

Basic chemistry is incredibly difficult to beat.  People look at hybrids and battery-electric vehicles like they're something 'new'... but really, they're not- electric cars and trucks existed BEFORE internal combustion... they just lost when it came to real-world operational demands.

Now let's talk about safety:  When you get in a car crash, there's fuel that can burn.  Shut down the fuel pump, and once the exhaust is cool, as long as there's no source of ignition, there won't be a fire... except for the battery underhood.  Look at most of the motor vehicle fires, the greatest margin start as a result of the BATTERY catching on fire, or an electrical short.

Take that little battery out, and replace it with one that's fifteen times larger... and jab a steel fencepost through it.  Whadd'ya think's gonna happen?
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 9:38pm
The boss bought a battery powered mini pickup to move customers from the show room down the line to look at cars. It didn't last 1 winter before he hauled it to Florida and sold it there.
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Mikez View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2019 at 10:44pm
How do they get the road use tax from them. shouldn't there be road use and power line use
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dakota Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 7:12am
we use van electric  golf cart at the farm with the bag holders removed. its great for daily farm use. the cows are use to it. it'll haul 4 buckets of feed. fencing tools and a few posts, wire and other supplies. with a 2 gallon weed sprayer I patrol the pasture and check  the fences. we use it daily running tools out to the equipment yard.  it gets used for every thing on the 2 quarters near the shop. when I go out to the other pastures I take the Polaris quad. the golf cart just doesn't have the range to run 80 miles of fence. the electric cart is great for short range work its quiet, torquey and easy to operate. starting and stopping are nonevents. you don't shut it off just step off and get back on when you want to move again. just don't leave the switch on if you go far from it the dog gets on and steps on the go pedal and it goes. I've had to chase it a couple times he doesn't know how to use the brake pedal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 7:39am
When I licensed my LPG powered GMC they showed me the 'Extra' fee for Alternative fuel, Hybrid and all Electric vehicles, essentially all 'Alternative Power Vehicles' get a annual once a year Fee for Road tax.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by Dakota Dave Dakota Dave wrote:

...just don't leave the switch on if you go far from it the dog gets on and steps on the go pedal and it goes. I've had to chase it a couple times he doesn't know how to use the brake pedal.


Dave... I think the dog needs to go back to Driver Education...

...But I'll bet the obedience training is better than most DRIVERS!!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2019 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by DMiller DMiller wrote:

When I licensed my LPG powered GMC they showed me the 'Extra' fee for Alternative fuel, Hybrid and all Electric vehicles, essentially all 'Alternative Power Vehicles' get a annual once a year Fee for Road tax.


That's the untold reality... and the reason why it's 'not legal' for a guy to drive his old diesel truck around on waste vegatable oil or home-distilled ethanol and methanol... you're not paying road tax.  Ouch
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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