This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Farm Equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Diesel coolant cavitation

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Diesel coolant cavitation
    Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:07am
There is a difference in pre mixed vs full strength other than one is ready to use and the other requires mixing. Premixed uses de ionized water. Probably not as big of a concern in the diesel world unless there are electronics being cooled as well.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Bob J Wi View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Points: 270
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob J Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 8:26am
Thanks I am trying not to buy water.
Back to Top
AC720Man View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2016
Location: Shenandoah, Va
Points: 5249
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC720Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:37pm
Bob, did you mean Fleet Charge? Does it look like what I put in my post above? If so, its full strength not a 50/50 mix.
1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
Back to Top
FREEDGUY View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
Points: 5396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 6:50pm
You didn't fall for the "PREMIXED" anti freeze, DID YOU??
Back to Top
Bob J Wi View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Points: 270
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob J Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:44am
I just found Peak "Final Charge Coolant " at
Menards for $11.49 per gallon. Label says it meets
many manufacturers including Cat EC-1 and Cummins.
Should be under $60 for a refill.
Thanks for the information..
Back to Top
Pete from IL View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: Beecher IL.
Points: 311
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pete from IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 12:17pm
Baldwin does offer some coolant filters without any coolant treatment in them. Don't know about all applications though.
Back to Top
Brian Jasper co. Ia View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Prairie City Ia
Points: 10508
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 11:57am
Coolant filters are a good idea to add to your 6.0/6.4 powerstroke. On the 6.0 mostly to catch the debris that will clog the oil cooler. Using a precharged filter is a no no as that will clog the cooler too. 6.4 has problems with cavitation on the front cover right behind the water pump. When the Ziegler Cat people were running 6.0s they switched them all to Cat EC1 and then I did far fewer oil and EGR coolers on them.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
Back to Top
Bob J Wi View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Points: 270
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob J Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 9:29am
Bump
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 7:28pm
that right there tells you how smart the GOV is
Back to Top
theropod View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by SteveM C/IL SteveM C/IL wrote:

That little Kubota probably don't have enough bang to swell liner on power stroke but I would follow Kubota's direction on your coolant.HD coolant can't hurt it though. 10,000hrs is a lot so you're probably ok either way.

My owners manual and shop service manual don’t mention anything about special coolant/antifreeze. Owned the engine since new over 17 years ago. Never been seriously hot. Changed oil like clockwork. Kept the valves adjusted. Take the injector out/apart ever so often and soak in lacquer thinner. Take the radiator off once a year and pressure wash the thing and the sleeve looks pretty clean. A really sweet engine that the EPA has banned.
Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:48am
That little Kubota probably don't have enough bang to swell liner on power stroke but I would follow Kubota's direction on your coolant.HD coolant can't hurt it though. 10,000hrs is a lot so you're probably ok either way.
Back to Top
theropod View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:06am
I have an EL-300 Kubota single cylinder diesel engine that makes about 4.25 HP on a good day. We use it to drive a large frame alternator to recharge our battery bank when the sun doesn’t shine and wind doesn’t blow. It runs at about 1,650 RPM. Is my little engine at risk from this effect? It is a wet sleeve engine, with a little over 10,000 hours and runs like a champ.
Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com
Back to Top
Bob J Wi View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Location: Wisconsin
Points: 270
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob J Wi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 8:34am
Bump
Back to Top
AC720Man View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2016
Location: Shenandoah, Va
Points: 5249
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC720Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 7:52pm

Picked this up at Rural King. Has the additive in it.
1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
Back to Top
pirlbeck View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 01 Dec 2009
Location: West Central IA
Points: 233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pirlbeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.

They do indeed have filter media in them and they do filter the coolant. When IH came out with the coolant filter kits we installed a lot of them on older tractors. We had several that after several days the the filter quit warming up when the engine was run. We cut the filter apart and it was completely plugged with the brown sludge that you typically see at the bottom of the block when you pull a wet cylinder liner out.
Back to Top
ACjack View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level
Avatar

Joined: 13 Sep 2014
Location: Peoria, Arizona
Points: 277
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Gerald J. Gerald J. wrote:

I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.
Clap  This is what I was told back in 1969 when working on the late stock/repair floor when I was given the task of installing these "coolant filters" on a couple of dozen 11,000 series engines before they were shipped.
Back to Top
Gerald J. View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
Points: 5636
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:28am
I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can.

Gerald J.
Back to Top
GM Guy View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 31 Jul 2012
Location: NW KS / S.C. ID
Points: 1985
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GM Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 12:30am
Cat EC-1 equivalent is an excellent diesel coolant that is available anywhere, and many aftermarket coolant makers offer a EC-1 equivalent.


I need to find a coolant filter without the additive brick inside, as I still value the filtering ability of having a filter, but I would imagine running a regular pre-charged filter is a no-no with extended life coolant.
Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine.

If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help.
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:41am
the film I saw that Cummins put out,said the liner expanded under firing and "snapped back" in place causeing void between water and wall causeing high heat on wall surface.When water moved back to wall,it was boiled and that steam bubble would blow a hole in metal (little by little). The additive coated liner to form protective layer to offset "steam damage". It doesn't change what's going on,it just protects against damage. This is for cavitation erosion.Electrolisis is different animal.
Back to Top
Lonn View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Location: Назарово,Russia
Points: 29817
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:43am
Had the definition of electrolysis in school a long time ago but I went and looked it up just to get it right. I'll put it here in my own words...........Electrolysis is an electro-chemical reaction between different metals. Just like how some folks on the forum have cleaned rusted metal parts immersed in some form of conductive liquid and opposite some home made electrodes and using a battery charger hooked up to each metal. Leave it charged long enough it will eat away at the good metal too.

Then there is just plain oxydation which is simply corrosion.

Both of these and cavitation that a diesel is prone can kill an engine given enough time.


These are three different problems and cavitation is the biggest problem in a diesel IMO.


Edited by Lonn - 28 Dec 2017 at 5:45am
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot
Back to Top
FREEDGUY View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
Points: 5396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:59pm
Thanks Gerald. Was under the impression it was a chemical reaction, I learned something new today! Guess a person is never too old LOL!
Back to Top
Gerald J. View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
Points: 5636
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 7:43pm
The damage from cavitation comes from the bang making a bubble on the outside of the sleeve and then that bubble collapsing so the sleeve is hit with coolant. Hit hard enough to remove a layer of steel atoms. Repeated each power stroke the cavitation eats all the way through the sleeve. It looks like corrosion but its not chemical corrosion.

Gerald J.
 

Back to Top
FREEDGUY View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
Points: 5396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:52pm
I was under the impression that it had to do with the acidity of the coolant that "ate" away the sleeve??
Back to Top
Gerald J. View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
Points: 5636
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:21am
My understanding of cavitation is that it is not from piston motion, but from the abrupt bang of diesel combustion. E.g. a very rapid combustion chamber pressure rise. If it was from piston motion it would be a problem in gas engines, especially racing engines.

Gerald J.
Back to Top
pirlbeck View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 01 Dec 2009
Location: West Central IA
Points: 233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pirlbeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:03am
From the Baldwin farm filter guide book.

HOW DO SCAs PREVENT LINER PITTING? Cylinder liner perforation is a common cause of premature failure in unprotected engines. Liner pitting occurs as collapsing air bubbles in the coolant scour away at the unprotected outer surface of the liner. Estimates show that these imploding bubbles can generate pressures in excess of 60,000 PSI at the surface of the liner wall. If left unchecked, complete perforation of the liner is likely.

Technically, this scouring process is known as cavitation erosion. While it can appear anywhere on the cylinder liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow vertical band, perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. A secondary band may be found on the opposite side of the liner. The air bubbles are primarily the result of vibration of the liner wall as the piston travels up and down in the cylinder bore. Therefore, any change in the design of the engine which increases the vibration of the liner (such as thinner cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor mechanical fit) will increase the potential for liner perforation. To combat the effect of cavitation erosion, all heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend the use of SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls with a hard oxide film that acts as a barrier between the liner wall and the collapsing air bubbles, but does not significantly impede heat transfer. While the SCAs cannot prevent the formation or collapse of the bubbles, the oxide film is thick enough to keep the bubbles away from the liner surface, thus effectively preventing pitting of the liners.

Back to Top
Lonn View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Location: Назарово,Russia
Points: 29817
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lonn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:45am
Originally posted by FREEDGUY FREEDGUY wrote:

Is it just the 301 engine or ALL ALLIS diesel engines? We also have a 433T in the F2.
Any diesel as stated before, including sleeveless but IH diesels had a problem with it in their 400 series engines, the 401 Ford, The Case 504, Deere 404 all had their share of troubles with cavitation and electrolysis which is a hair bit of a different problem but treated the same. I think if you talk to most any mechanic in any brand shop they'll tell you some engines are worse than other but almost all diesels will have that same problem. The only reason why I picked out the certain engines above is because I've known and talked to mechanics that have worked on all those particular engines and they all say the same thing basically. Treated antifreeze seems the only way to beat it...... that and supposedly what Sisu had done to their engines...... Or an air cooled.

Here's a link describing how cavitation erosion works.
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/
-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink
I am a Russian Bot
Back to Top
Ranse View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2016
Location: Tennessee
Points: 782
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ranse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:21pm
I've never even heard of this problem before, nor did I know there was a different coolant foe diesels. I've always just used the green Prestone antifreeze as used in a car. My 7740 New Holland doesn't have sleeves (so I've been told), does it make a difference?
Back to Top
theropod View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2017
Location: Arkansas USA
Points: 217
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:00pm
When I started my B recently for the first time in years I installed a cone shaped metal screen inside the inlet on the radiator. I was worried about crud/mouse nesting material in the block. While there was no rats nesting there was crud, and I cleaned the mesh cone out and ran the engine again with the cone in place again, and cleaned it out again. The last time there was hardly anything in the diy filter. If nothing else that junk didn’t make it into the radiator.
Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

No private messages:
use email:
theropod AT yahoo DOT com
Back to Top
FREEDGUY View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 15 Apr 2017
Location: South West Mich
Points: 5396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FREEDGUY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 5:26pm
Please post your results after the autopsy Smile
Back to Top
JimWenigOH View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: NC Ohio
Points: 1198
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimWenigOH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by DrAllis DrAllis wrote:

Why anyone would go to the trouble and expense of mounting a filter when you can just use the CORRECT coolant is beyond me. Any coolant filter will have at least 4 possible places to leak as things get older.

  Some time ago, this subject came up. From what I remember, there was a photo of a used coolant filter which had been cut open showing the particulates the filter had caught. To me that is one good reason to use the filter. I installed one on the 220 and am in the process of installing one on the XT. I'll be cutting my next used filter open for my own test results.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.053 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum