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| Diesel coolant cavitation | 
| Post Reply   | Page 12> | 
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| Brian Jasper co. Ia   Orange Level   Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Topic: Diesel coolant cavitation Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 11:07am | 
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There is a difference in pre mixed vs full strength other than one is ready to use and the other requires mixing. Premixed uses de ionized water. Probably not as big of a concern in the diesel world unless there are electronics being cooled as well. 
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     "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford 
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| Bob J Wi   Orange Level     Joined: 25 Mar 2011 Location: Wisconsin Points: 270 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 8:26am | 
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Thanks I am trying not to buy water.
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| AC720Man   Orange Level     Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 5249 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:37pm | 
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   Bob, did you mean Fleet Charge? Does it look like what I put in my post above? If so, its full strength not a 50/50 mix.
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     1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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| FREEDGUY   Orange Level Access     Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 6:50pm | 
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   You didn't fall for the "PREMIXED" anti freeze, DID YOU??
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| Bob J Wi   Orange Level     Joined: 25 Mar 2011 Location: Wisconsin Points: 270 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 8:44am | 
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I just found Peak "Final Charge Coolant " at  Menards for $11.49 per gallon. Label says it meets many manufacturers including Cat EC-1 and Cummins. Should be under $60 for a refill. Thanks for the information.. | |
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| Pete from IL   Silver Level   Joined: 29 Dec 2009 Location: Beecher IL. Points: 311 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 12:17pm | 
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   Baldwin does offer some coolant filters without any coolant treatment in them. Don't know about all applications though.
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| Brian Jasper co. Ia   Orange Level   Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Prairie City Ia Points: 10508 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 14 Jan 2018 at 11:57am | 
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Coolant filters are a good idea to add to your 6.0/6.4 powerstroke. On the 6.0 mostly to catch the debris that will clog the oil cooler. Using a precharged filter is a no no as that will clog the cooler too. 6.4 has problems with cavitation on the front cover right behind the water pump. When the Ziegler Cat people were running 6.0s they switched them all to Cat EC1 and then I did far fewer oil and EGR coolers on them. 
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     "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford 
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| Bob J Wi   Orange Level     Joined: 25 Mar 2011 Location: Wisconsin Points: 270 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 13 Jan 2018 at 9:29am | 
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Bump
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| SteveM C/IL   Orange Level Access   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8678 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 7:28pm | 
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   that right there tells you how smart the GOV is
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| theropod   Orange Level     Joined: 28 Sep 2017 Location: Arkansas USA Points: 217 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 1:27pm | 
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 My owners manual and shop service manual don’t mention anything about special coolant/antifreeze. Owned the engine since new over 17 years ago. Never been seriously hot. Changed oil like clockwork. Kept the valves adjusted. Take the injector out/apart ever so often and soak in lacquer thinner. Take the radiator off once a year and pressure wash the thing and the sleeve looks pretty clean. A really sweet engine that the EPA has banned. | |
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     Put the bunny back in the box! 1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200 No private messages: use email: theropod AT yahoo DOT com | |
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| SteveM C/IL   Orange Level Access   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8678 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:48am | 
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That little Kubota probably don't have enough bang to swell liner on power stroke but I would follow Kubota's direction on your coolant.HD coolant can't hurt it though. 10,000hrs is a lot so you're probably ok either way.
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| theropod   Orange Level     Joined: 28 Sep 2017 Location: Arkansas USA Points: 217 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 11:06am | 
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   I have an EL-300 Kubota single cylinder diesel engine that makes about 4.25 HP on a good day. We use it to drive a large frame alternator to recharge our battery bank when the sun doesn’t shine and wind doesn’t blow. It runs at about 1,650 RPM. Is my little engine at risk from this effect? It is a wet sleeve engine, with a little over 10,000 hours and runs like a champ.
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     Put the bunny back in the box! 1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200 No private messages: use email: theropod AT yahoo DOT com | |
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| Bob J Wi   Orange Level     Joined: 25 Mar 2011 Location: Wisconsin Points: 270 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 03 Jan 2018 at 8:34am | 
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Bump
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| AC720Man   Orange Level     Joined: 10 Oct 2016 Location: Shenandoah, Va Points: 5249 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 7:52pm | 
| Picked this up at Rural King. Has the additive in it. | |
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     1968 B-208, 1976 720 (2 of them)Danco brush hog, single bottom plow,52" snow thrower, belly mower,rear tine tiller, rear blade, front blade, 57"sickle bar,1983 917 hydro, 1968 7hp sno-bee, 1968 190XTD
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| pirlbeck   Silver Level   Joined: 01 Dec 2009 Location: West Central IA Points: 233 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:59am | 
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 They do indeed have filter media in them and they do filter the coolant. When IH came out with the coolant filter kits we installed a lot of them on older tractors. We had several that after several days the the filter quit warming up when the engine was run. We cut the filter apart and it was completely plugged with the brown sludge that you typically see at the bottom of the block when you pull a wet cylinder liner out. | |
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| ACjack   Silver Level     Joined: 13 Sep 2014 Location: Peoria, Arizona Points: 277 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:36am | 
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  This is what I was told back in 1969 when working on the late stock/repair floor when I was given the task of installing these "coolant filters" on a couple of dozen 11,000 series engines before they were shipped. | |
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| Gerald J.   Orange Level   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:28am | 
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   I don't know for sure but I think the coolant "filter" is really a device primarily intended to keep the additive amount up and there isn't any coolant cleaning in the can. Gerald J. | |
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| GM Guy   Orange Level   Joined: 31 Jul 2012 Location: NW KS / S.C. ID Points: 1985 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 12:30am | 
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   Cat EC-1 equivalent is an excellent diesel coolant that is available anywhere, and many aftermarket coolant makers offer a EC-1 equivalent. I need to find a coolant filter without the additive brick inside, as I still value the filtering ability of having a filter, but I would imagine running a regular pre-charged filter is a no-no with extended life coolant. | |
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     Gleaner: the properly engineered and built combine. If you need parts for your Gleaner, we are parting out A's through L2's, so we may be able to help. | |
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| SteveM C/IL   Orange Level Access   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8678 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:41am | 
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   the film I saw that Cummins put out,said the liner expanded under firing and "snapped back" in place causeing void between water and wall causeing high heat on wall surface.When water moved back to wall,it was boiled and that steam bubble would blow a hole in metal (little by little). The additive coated liner to form protective layer to offset "steam damage". It doesn't change what's going on,it just protects against damage. This is for cavitation erosion.Electrolisis is different animal.
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| Lonn   Orange Level     Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29817 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:43am | 
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   Had the definition of electrolysis in school a long time ago but I went and looked it up just to get it right. I'll put it here in my own words...........Electrolysis is an electro-chemical reaction between different metals. Just like how some folks on the forum have cleaned rusted metal parts immersed in some form of conductive liquid and opposite some home made electrodes and using a battery charger hooked up to each metal. Leave it charged long enough it will eat away at the good metal too. Then there is just plain oxydation which is simply corrosion. Both of these and cavitation that a diesel is prone can kill an engine given enough time. These are three different problems and cavitation is the biggest problem in a diesel IMO. Edited by Lonn - 28 Dec 2017 at 5:45am | |
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     -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -  Wink I am a Russian Bot | |
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| FREEDGUY   Orange Level Access     Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:59pm | 
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   Thanks Gerald. Was under the impression it was a chemical reaction, I learned something new today! Guess a person is never too old LOL!
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| Gerald J.   Orange Level   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 7:43pm | 
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   The damage from cavitation comes from the bang making a bubble on the outside of the sleeve and then that bubble collapsing so the sleeve is hit with coolant. Hit hard enough to remove a layer of steel atoms. Repeated each power stroke the cavitation eats all the way through the sleeve. It looks like corrosion but its not chemical corrosion. Gerald J. | |
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| FREEDGUY   Orange Level Access     Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:52pm | 
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   I was under the impression that it had to do with the acidity of the coolant that "ate" away the sleeve??
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| Gerald J.   Orange Level   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Hamilton Co, IA Points: 5636 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:21am | 
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   My understanding of cavitation is that it is not from piston motion, but from the abrupt bang of diesel combustion. E.g. a very rapid combustion chamber pressure rise. If it was from piston motion it would be a problem in gas engines, especially racing engines. Gerald J. | |
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| pirlbeck   Silver Level   Joined: 01 Dec 2009 Location: West Central IA Points: 233 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 8:03am | 
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   From the Baldwin farm filter guide book. Technically, this scouring process is known as cavitation erosion. While it can appear anywhere on the cylinder liner, most pitting occurs as a narrow vertical band, perpendicular to the axis of the crankshaft. A secondary band may be found on the opposite side of the liner. The air bubbles are primarily the result of vibration of the liner wall as the piston travels up and down in the cylinder bore. Therefore, any change in the design of the engine which increases the vibration of the liner (such as thinner cylinder walls, longer sleeves or poor mechanical fit) will increase the potential for liner perforation. To combat the effect of cavitation erosion, all heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend the use of SCAs. The SCAs coat the liner walls with a hard oxide film that acts as a barrier between the liner wall and the collapsing air bubbles, but does not significantly impede heat transfer. While the SCAs cannot prevent the formation or collapse of the bubbles, the oxide film is thick enough to keep the bubbles away from the liner surface, thus effectively preventing pitting of the liners. | |
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| Lonn   Orange Level     Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29817 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 6:45am | 
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 Here's a link describing how cavitation erosion works. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/ | |
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     -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -  Wink I am a Russian Bot | |
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| Ranse   Orange Level     Joined: 11 Mar 2016 Location: Tennessee Points: 782 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:21pm | 
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   I've never even heard of this problem before, nor did I know there was a different coolant foe diesels. I've always just used the green Prestone antifreeze as used in a car. My 7740 New Holland doesn't have sleeves (so I've been told), does it make a difference?
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| theropod   Orange Level     Joined: 28 Sep 2017 Location: Arkansas USA Points: 217 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 6:00pm | 
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   When I started my B recently for the first time in years I installed a cone shaped metal screen inside the inlet on the radiator. I was worried about crud/mouse nesting material in the block. While there was no rats nesting there was crud, and I cleaned the mesh cone out and ran the engine again with the cone in place again, and cleaned it out again. The last time there was hardly anything in the diy filter. If nothing else that junk didn’t make it into the radiator.
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     Put the bunny back in the box! 1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200 No private messages: use email: theropod AT yahoo DOT com | |
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| FREEDGUY   Orange Level Access     Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 5:26pm | 
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   Please post your results after the autopsy    | |
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| JimWenigOH   Orange Level   Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NC Ohio Points: 1198 |  Post Options  Thanks(0)  Quote  Reply  Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 4:46pm | 
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   Some time ago, this subject came up. From what I remember, there was a photo of a used coolant filter which had been cut open showing the particulates the filter had caught. To me that is one good reason to use the filter. I installed one on the 220 and am in the process of installing one on the XT. I'll be cutting my next used filter open for my own test results. | |
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