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Dale (Stonelick) 
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
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 Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 11:32am |
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Dick L: I have replaced the points with electronic ignition. How do I make the fine timing adjustment with electronic ignition?
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 11:45am |
Dale, Now you went and done it!  Just kidding! I was absorbing you standing over the tractor turning the engine!:) I think your doing very good. Most of us have been there maybe more than once. Sounds like you have spark. I use a tester similar to that too. So timing and fuel. I would work on the fuel issue. I think if you get it to fire/run you can rotate the distributor a little to get it to run for a little while. Then tune the timing later. Dick has a good suggestion to find TDC on #1 with the wire as a indicator. (I am going to go out on a limb here and make a comment that I will probably get shot down on? But on any WD tractor I have worked on the side bolt holding the crank pulley on is in a vertical up (I think) position when the #1 piston is at the top. Not sure on the other AC tractors? My point is that it made it much easier to turn the engine looking at that crank bolt, to get the position of each cylinder close.) After that you just need to see if the valves are closed if yes then your at #1 TDC. As you can see by the comments each of us has different methods to get to the same point in the timing procedure. But be assured that we all have to get the machine/ engine in the same position that we speak of. Fuel: So i have not had one of these carbs apart. But you have so at this point when your standing in your shop, you are the expert! If you dont think your the expert yet , then take it apart again till you are. If you have a exploded parts list of the carb that should allow you to find each part and make sure its correct and in place. Spray carb cleaner through each orifice and or air to assure they are open. Sounds like you have gas at the carb. Your almost there! I can hear it run now! Good folks on here to help you in the details. Steve @ B&B can tell you about the electronic ignition. Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 30 Nov 2019 at 11:56am
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Jim.ME
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Location: Maine
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Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 1:21pm |
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I am more with Dick's thoughts on doing initial timing. The starting point for timing is TDC on the #1 compression stroke, its hit or miss until you find that point. You would be just as hit or miss on getting it right by turning the distributor while cranking the engine with the starter. JMHO. Nothing against using the electronic ignition but I would also have kept the point ignition at least until I got it running, then changed it. I can fix a point or condenser problem, I can't do much if the EI has an issue. Again my thoughts, others will differ, no problem.
Your engine must have a lot of drag. With the fan belt tight and pulling on a fan blade all mine will turn reasonably, with all 4 spark plugs out. I'm not saying its easy and you won't get a few scrapes, but it should work. I do that before I would use a crank, again personal choice.
If you remove the valve cover you can watch the valve rockers for cylinders 1 and 4. The valve nearest the fan is #1 exhaust, you will see the push rod side go down and the valve side raise as the exhaust stroke completes, at the same time the next valve, #1 intake, is starting to go down to open. Watch the intake as you turn when you see it starting to close the compression stroke is starting. That is the time to use the wire as Dick suggested. Also watch for #4 cylinder valves to be on the rock (the exhaust will be just closing and the intake just opening), #1 will be TDC on its compression stroke, or very close, at that point.
Keep at it you will get there.
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Dick L
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Edon Ohio
Points: 5087
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Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 2:42pm |
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I have never used an electronic ignition. I am not totally sure! I would most likely leave the distributor cap in place with the switch on and watch for spark at the end of the number one plug wire.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 3:08pm |
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I connect all four plugs and lay on the tin, that way you can SEE that all 4 fire. One D14 didn't, had a bad dist. cap.....'borrowed ' cap from other D-14, ran great then !
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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BrianC
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Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Location: New York
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Posted: 30 Nov 2019 at 5:28pm |
Do this 10 minute easy diagnostic and fix-
1) Rotate the engine so that front pulley set screw is straight dead up 12 o'clock. 2) Remove the distributor cap. The rotor should be pointing at either #1 or #4 post.
3) If it is pointing at either #1 OR #4, then pull the wires from the distributor,
and rotate them all as a pattern, 2 holes clockwise. 4) Now it will start (with ether or gas spray bottle). Or, at least bark. Guaranteed!
If the rotor was not pointing at #1 or #4, then distributor is installed wrong. But if it is pointing at #2 or #3, then move the wires to match that ("go with the flow"). Again after that, you may have to try the other rotation possibility step 3.
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Sugarmaker
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Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 8:20am |
Brian, So straight up on the crank pulley screw puts #1 and #4 piston in the up position. One of them ready to fire one is on exhaust stroke. Great tip. Like you say then just need to make sure the distributor points to the one that is ready to fire. Switching plug wires gives you that option. I would add that if its pointing at #1, I would try it there first, because maybe they are in the correct position? Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Dick L
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Edon Ohio
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Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 10:15am |
Yeas ago over on YT there was a guy in Michigan that was asking advise for over a year trying to get his CA to run. All kinds of advise of what was wrong but after trying to follow the different advices it would not start and run. One day he said he wanted it gone. He had decided that something was wrong with the engine that would cost more than he was willing to put into it. I emailed him and ask what he had to have. After responding I drove up into Michigan and winched it on my trailer. When I was home in my drive I crawled up on the trailer, set the timing, hit the starter, it came to life and I drove it off the trailer. In that same time period another guy in Michigan had his Dads Oliver 66 that had set in a barn for years and would not run. He told me several people had looked at it and tried everything to get it to run but it wouldn't start. When I got there he had a couple of guys trying to start it. When they walked away I set the timing, hooked up my Jump & Carry, sprayed starter fluid into the carburetor and it started. I kept misting starter fluid to keep it running and didn't see any bad smoke. I paid for it, winched it on. When home I cleaned the carburetor and the next weekend I took it to tractor pull and took second place in the 3,000 pound class. The two guys that was trying to start it when I got there to look at it walked up to the side of the trailer while it was still loaded. I was coming back from sighing up and over one say that tractor look like the one some crazy bought from so and so. Yup, I said I be that crazy fellow. Knowing how to time an engine is kinda important. This is the CA 
Edited by Dick L - 01 Dec 2019 at 4:38pm
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Steve in NJ
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11992
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Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 10:27am |
Man, all the posts on this particular subject got me wondering about the timing. IF the compression is that low on a couple cylinders, I don't see how that would start and actually run, but timing plays a BIG role in all of that. With the pan off for more than 20 years, I can see the engine getting stuck! Nothin' there to protect the crank, rods, n' pistons and above all the cylinders. To me, a sleeve kit is in order, and I would just tear it down, install the new sleeve/piston kit, and start from the bottom up and redo it. The head is done already, so to me, it would go together pretty quick. Make sure the timing is on, valves close, Carb ready to rock, and fire that dude up, and once warmed up close to operating temps, dial everything in.......  Steve@B&B
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39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
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Dick L
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Location: Edon Ohio
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Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 11:04am |
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Steve, You missed a couple posts. He barrowed an actual compressor tester from a parts store and had a good compression! If it is out of time with a new carburetor it will still not start. I was trying to point out the importance of having it in time first and foremost.
My thoughts are the same as yours on low compression.
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WF owner
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Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
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Posted: 01 Dec 2019 at 12:50pm |
I know how frustrating getting it timed right can be. I ran across this page a few years ago and it has helped me a lot (for both distributor and magneto). It explains it step-by-step better than I ever could. Here's the link: http://dueyschutter.freeservers.com/photo4.html
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Valiant Farmer
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Joined: 30 Nov 2019
Location: New Zealand
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 3:19am |
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Hope it all goes well!
-Samuel
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Dale (Stonelick)
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Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 1:53pm |
Success! Today I was able to get the CA engine to fire using starter fluid, after making some timing adjustments you had suggested. I will start working on the carburetor next. Thanks to everyone for your advice.
Here is what I did on timing to get the engine to fire:
My SWMBO used drill & wire brush on the flywheel while I cranked the starter. The “FIRE” mark showed up! Thanks Dick L and Jim.ME Pushed the tractor in 4th gear until the crankshaft pulley’s set screw was a 12 noon. The “CENTER” mark showed up! Thanks Brian C and Sugarmaker. Used white paint on the “CENTER” mark. Thanks Jim.ME Was able to turn crankshaft with fan blade (with extra pressure on belt) until “CENTER” mark was almost exactly dead center in the inspection opening. I think maybe the Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders made the fan blade easier to turn. Thanks Jim.ME The rotor was pointing close to the #4 spark plug wire terminal (rather than the proper #1 spark plug wire terminal). I rotated the distributor counter-clockwise until it lined up on the #4 spark plug wire terminal. The engine would not fire on this setting. I removed all the spark plug wires from the distributor cover and rotated them 2 holes clockwise. So now the old #4 spark plug wire is lined up on the #1 spark plug wire terminal, and the #1 spark plug wire is lined up with the rotor & terminal. The engine fired (but didn’t run) on this setting. Tried three times using starter fliud (with the gas on) and it fired each time. Thanks Brian C. Once I get the carburetor problems figured out and engine running on gas, I’ll try to fine tune the timing - either by ear or checking the valve positions with the valve cover off.
I’ll start looking at the Zenith model 61 carburetor again. As I mentioned before, I noticed it didn’t appear to have the correct main jet when I attempted my earlier rebuild. Any carburetor advice will be appreciated.
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jaybmiller
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Greensville,Ont
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:03pm |
GREAT !!!  Always nice to hear about sucess ! Another old Allis about to become 'field ready' !
re: carb rebuild stuff I know... a clean workbench, lots of light, dental picks, 2 or 3 BIG diagrams of 'what goes where', do a total teardown, clean everything 2-3 times, 'polish' jets with 800-1000g sandpaper. look for 'hidden' passages and clean them as well. very small drill bits can 'ream' out crud
spray brake cleaner help remove varnish but WEAR GLASSES, be careful spraying it. put float in big bowl of water, weigh it down, any bubbles..there's a leak, needs to be soldered over.
Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor)
Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water
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Valiant Farmer
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:16pm |
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Great job!
-Samuel
Edited by Valiant Farmer - 02 Dec 2019 at 2:37pm
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:20pm |
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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BrianC
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 2:36pm |
The happy times!
Some people say timing is everything. Few more items-
Can you confirm that the front pulley set screw is at 12 o'clock when the "C" flywheel mark is showing? EDIT: I guess the answer is yes as you clearly stated
Now that you have the F timing mark, this is your target for the timing light when engine is running fast.
If the electronic ignition is Pertronix, they put out a bulletin that the plug wires must not be wire, have to use resistor type. Can just the wire from the coil be resistance type, I don't know. Or use resistor plugs? call 'em.
I would be curious to know the crankshaft end play, this will tell you if the thrust bearing is good. .001" to .005" is spec. Worn out ones can have .035 or so.
Put a gravity type fuel filter in the fuel line. If your fuel line is
original and you don't want to butcher it, replace with rubber line and
fuel filter. This way your carburetor cleanup work won't be spoiled.
Edited by BrianC - 02 Dec 2019 at 3:28pm
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Dale (Stonelick)
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 4:02pm |
[QUOTE=BrianC] The happy times!
Some people say timing is everything. Few more items-
- Can you confirm that the front pulley set screw is at 12 o'clock when the "C" flywheel mark is showing? EDIT: I guess the answer is yes as you clearly stated. Yes, I just double checked.
- Now that you have the F timing mark, this is your target for the timing light when engine is running fast. Thanks
- If the electronic ignition is Pertronix, they put out a bulletin that the plug wires must not be wire, have to use resistor type. Can just the wire from the coil be resistance type, I don't know. Or use resistor plugs? call 'em. I purchased all the electrical stuff from Steve at B&B Circuits which included the carbon fiber plug wires that he recommended.
- I would be curious to know the crankshaft end play, this will tell you if the thrust bearing is good. .001" to .005" is spec. Worn out ones can have .035 or so. I used a crowbar on the pulley end and it moved just a little. I don't have the equipment to measure it. What do you recommend?
- Put a gravity type fuel filter in the fuel line. If your fuel line is
original and you don't want to butcher it, replace with rubber line and
fuel filter. This way your carburetor cleanup work won't be spoiled. Thanks for the suggestion. I had to make a replacement fuel line from a brake line - boy was that hard to bend! Now that you mention it, the first time I put gas in my repainted gas tank, I had a lot of abrasives (from sand blasting) float down into my sediment bowl. I had to remove the gas tank and clean it out real good (again), but I did not re-clean my carburetor - which I will do. I think I will also switch to your suggested rubber line and fuel filter until I get it running.
Steve in NJ: I'm using new Autolite 295 plugs that came with a tune up kit (points/condenser/rotor) that I bought online before buying your electronic ignition. Will this Autolite 295 work okay? I notice that Steiner has replaced the 295 with Autolite ABC 168.
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Jim.ME
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 4:44pm |
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Glad to hear you got it to fire. It should run when you get the fuel squared away. Just so you know there are two schools of thought, like with everything, on using the inline filters. first is they are good. The other is they restrict the fuel flow some and are not as good on a gravity flow system such as is found on a tractor. I still have the sediment bowls and steel lines on all of mine and don't have any problems.
Asking about plugs will usually get you many opinions. I have been changing over to NGK plugs (NGK Stock # 3219, NGK # B4). Never had long life from Autolite plugs, AC plugs don't seem to be as good as the old ones, and Champion plugs were a real let down the last time I got some. Just my opinion, glad if others have different luck. Guess that's why we have different brands, gives us some to complain about.
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DiyDave
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Posted: 02 Dec 2019 at 5:39pm |
 Dale (Stonelick) wrote:
[QUOTE=BrianC]The happy times!
Some people say timing is everything. Few more items-
- Can you confirm that the front pulley set screw is at 12 o'clock when the "C" flywheel mark is showing? EDIT: I guess the answer is yes as you clearly stated. Yes, I just double checked.
- Now that you have the F timing mark, this is your target for the timing light when engine is running fast. Thanks
- If the electronic ignition is Pertronix, they put out a bulletin that the plug wires must not be wire, have to use resistor type. Can just the wire from the coil be resistance type, I don't know. Or use resistor plugs? call 'em. I purchased all the electrical stuff from Steve at B&B Circuits which included the carbon fiber plug wires that he recommended.
- I would be curious to know the crankshaft end play, this will tell you if the thrust bearing is good. .001" to .005" is spec. Worn out ones can have .035 or so. I used a crowbar on the pulley end and it moved just a little. I don't have the equipment to measure it. What do you recommend?
- Put a gravity type fuel filter in the fuel line. If your fuel line is
original and you don't want to butcher it, replace with rubber line and
fuel filter. This way your carburetor cleanup work won't be spoiled. Thanks for the suggestion. I had to make a replacement fuel line from a brake line - boy was that hard to bend! Now that you mention it, the first time I put gas in my repainted gas tank, I had a lot of abrasives (from sand blasting) float down into my sediment bowl. I had to remove the gas tank and clean it out real good (again), but I did not re-clean my carburetor - which I will do. I think I will also switch to your suggested rubber line and fuel filter until I get it running.
Steve in NJ: I'm using new Autolite 295 plugs that came with a tune up kit (points/condenser/rotor) that I bought online before buying your electronic ignition. Will this Autolite 295 work okay? I notice that Steiner has replaced the 295 with Autolite ABC 168. |
All you need is a set of feeler gauges long enough to reach between the edge of the pulley, and the front of the pan. Measure it relaxed, then measure it with the pry bar, against it. Also watch, as you pry, to see if the crank pulley bolt is moving or loose... 
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